lions and bears and deer and elk, oh my, update

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:21 pm

ok, the old if you could only have one rifle question.
only it is being played out for real with a fellow at my
work. mid 30s, no guns, wants to hunt. the basic big
game in this part of the world is a combo lic. of cougar,
black bear, deer, and elk. some or all may/may not be possible.
he has gotten advise from various sources, and seems
a little confused. i have a feeling he wants to impress
the guys he may hunt with, with his new hardware. he's
not experienced with shooting, and is hearing how soandso
shot an animal at 300yds or more[ sometimes lots more].

so what advise would you offer to someone in this position?
rifle?
caliber?

oh, one rifle for all, not an assortment.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:37 pm

Sounds like a candidate for a good bolt action 30-06.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:41 pm

+1 on the 06, altho the 308,270,280,would all work, but beings a new non shooter something with easy recoil yet plenty of stuff to get the job done, 7mm08 or 260 rem, wouldn't be bad choices.

bsaride · Post by **bsaride** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:42 pm

pokey wrote:mid 30s, no guns, wants to hunt. beginner

the basic big game in this part of the world is a combo lic. of cougar,
black bear, deer, and elk. some or all may/may not be possible. 30-30 with 170gr minimum

he has gotten advise from various sources, and seems a little confused. yep

i have a feeling he wants to impress the guys he may hunt with, with his new hardware.
Learn to outshoot them with lots of practice without getting a loudenboomer

he's not experienced with shooting, and is hearing how soandso
shot an animal at 300yds or more[ sometimes lots more].
he should start shooting at 100 yards max and not attempt anything beyond his capability

so what advise would you offer to someone in this position? rifle? caliber?
oh, one rifle for all, not an assortment.

Winchester or Marlin 30-30, bolt gun in 30-06 max cailber

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:49 am

What bsaride said...

Also - trying to 'impress' anyone is pretty much never a good idea, especially if it involves firearms and a novice.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:59 am

funny you guys should say that.
i'm all levers all the time, ,,but
i recommended a scoped, bolt, 30-06.

figured flexible, to cover all the game he
might see, and easy/cheap to feed.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:19 am

TedH wrote:Sounds like a candidate for a good bolt action 30-06.

Though I own few bolt actions and no 30-06's, I gotta agree.

2x22

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:25 am

yup, 30-06 in a good bolt gun will do just fine!

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:09 am

TedH wrote:Sounds like a candidate for a good bolt action 30-06.

Dittos. Likely he can get a good buy on one as well. In our shop we have 10-12 good used .30-06s with scopes for good prices. Rugers, Savages, Winchesters, Remingtons... I wouldn't recommend anything else. Since he doesn't reload he'll be able to get a wide range of ammo at the store, the .30-06 hasn't gotten hard to find. PLUS there's the reduced recoil stuff out there for it.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:18 am

Yup!

30ought6 in bolt, with 220 grn Remington factory ammo under 250yds,... and 175 matchking HPBT's for more. If he wants to go lever, he can get the same reliable old work horse 30'06,... or with the size game your quoting, a Marlin 444 is another choice, with Hornady 265 grn LMFN factory ammo.

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:22 am

How are the bears and cats hunted? If they are shot while treed or bayed, or bear over bait, a 358 Win in a BLR or Ruger Compact 77 would be great for dragging around the mtns. Otherwise, a light, compact 308 like the Ruger Frontier, Rem 7 or Kimber 84 Mtn would be versatile and compact. The Ruger Frontier offers the option of a scout scope mounted or a dot sight. If one of the rifles had sights it might edge out the others if chasing cats and bears is going to be a regular pasttime. Then what if the chance for sheep, goats, or moose comes up? I think all these options are more versatile than a standard rifle in 30-06 with a mandatory scope, IF the types of hunting are like I figure.

Lobo · Post by **Lobo** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:46 am

Hi All,

There's a fellow named Richard Proenneke who moved to the Alaskan wilderness and lived there for thirty years. He took a bolt rifle in 30-06 and a S&W revolver in .357 Mag. Said he never felt under-gunned. There's a video about him, "Alone in the Wilderness".

Now, with that said, I'd not be a true levergunner if I didn't suggest to the tyro rifleman that a good Marlin 336 in .35 Rem or .375 Win would fill the needs of a good hunter!

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:11 am

I like a 270 over a 30-06 myself. Shoot both if you can, then decide.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:29 am

have to go with the gang on this one, for all of north america, bolt rifle in 30-06. for the world, bolt rifle in .375H&H.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:43 am

Even though, as we all know, the lever gun is the choice of experienced pros who really understand hunting and shooting, there is a lot to be said for a 7-08 bolt gun. The 7-08 is a great round that makes a whole lot of sense.

If I had plenty of money it would be hard to resist the temptation to buy a Remington LSS in 7-08 and put a nice Leupold on it. The LSS is stainless, light, and really feels nice. It is light but still hangs like a rifle.

Here is the link http://www.remington.com/products/firea ... in_LSS.asp

A friend has one in 260 and it makes me very jealous every time I see it.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:12 pm

If its not the 30-06, Joe does has some good options! The .308 is also a awesome caliber!

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:05 pm

86er wrote:How are the bears and cats hunted? If they are shot while treed or bayed, or bear over bait, a 358 Win in a BLR or Ruger Compact 77 would be great for dragging around the mtns. Otherwise, a light, compact 308 like the Ruger Frontier, Rem 7 or Kimber 84 Mtn would be versatile and compact. The Ruger Frontier offers the option of a scout scope mounted or a dot sight. If one of the rifles had sights it might edge out the others if chasing cats and bears is going to be a regular pasttime. Then what if the chance for sheep, goats, or moose comes up? I think all these options are more versatile than a standard rifle in 30-06 with a mandatory scope, IF the types of hunting are like I figure.

not sure what/where/when, likely start with elk or deer and see what opportunities arise.
the options you list good, but i still think a 30-06 with factory loads is more flexible, 110 gr.
to 220 gr. is quite a spread.

his brother inlaw is telling him to buy a 300 ultra mag, he has one and thinks it's the cat's
pajamas. says he reloads for it and can/will supply ammo. i don't think this is the wisest
decision, but i can only offer advise. there is a small local gun show this sat. been trying
to get him interested in going to look, maybe some oldtimers there will chime in. i have some
friends with gun shops i'd like him to talk to as well. in the end it will be his decision obviously,
i'd just like him to have as much info as he needs to choose wisely.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:13 pm

TedH wrote:Sounds like a candidate for a good bolt action 30-06.

+1

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:15 pm

I have an '06 and it is wonderful..one of the old Tang Safety Ruger bolts.....but, I got a real good deal on it....If I were buying new, I'd be tempted to go with a 338 Federal, or 8mm Mauser, or the .35 Whelen, or that Marlin .338 Lever....It's fun to have something a bit different from everybody else.

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:21 pm

AS a beginner, I flinched A LOT with a Ruger Model 77 in 30/06. I think he should either reload lighter loads for '06 or go to .308 or .270 unless he buys a good 8# rifle.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:36 pm

Have him get the ultra mag and free ammo.. Who knows, maybe it pound enough sense into him to listen to some sound advice.. Besides, if he doesn't like the ultra mag, maybe you can get a deal LOL...

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:41 pm

Ben_Rumson wrote:Have him get the ultra mag and free ammo.. Who knows, maybe it pound enough sense into him to listen to some sound advice.. Besides, if he doesn't like the ultra mag, maybe you can get a deal LOL...

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:55 pm

30-06 or the .308 just pick your flavor of bolt gun. I take it he wont be reloading right away either round can be picked up at any gun store and all the manufacturers produce it.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:39 am

I am in agreement with the 30-06 bolt. The availability of ammo and of different weights is the top reason and also the amount of selection of rifles chambered for it.

But if only one gun, then I would go with the 9.3x62mm built on the 98 action or the new CZ offering. Factory ammo is fairly easy to get, might have to mail order from Cabelas, Midway, or Grafs. Handloading gives more options with that caliber. You could hunt the world with the 9.3x62 and not ne over gunned for N American game. The felt recoil on such a large caliber is very mild, I prefer shooting my 9.3x62 over the 30-06 and 270, another reason that I recommend it. I haven't used it for shots over 300 yards, (I wouldn't shoot anything over 300 yards at any animal I was hunting, too far in my opinion for clean kills).

One other really great round is the 6.5x55mm, Swedes have been shooting moose and elk for years with it with very good results. Its a very, very mild shooting round and have a good selection of bullet weights.

Steve

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:48 am

If he's going to buy new. Have a look at the Marlin XL7 30-06 or XS7 308. They are about $325 with a scope base mounted, have a great trigger, fluted bolt and are very accurate.

If used, the Winchester 670 is always a bargain.

The Trijicon Accupoint scopes will certainly impress his friends.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:56 am

pokey wrote:

his brother inlaw is telling him to buy a 300 ultra mag, he has one and thinks it's the cat's
pajamas. says he reloads for it and can/will supply ammo. i don't think this is the wisest
decision, but i can only offer advise.

If he needs to hear more common sense suggestions, just show him this thread.

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:41 am

I've already commented on caliber and rifles but here is another thought regarding mountain rifles - avoid the 3 position bolt safety (Mauser style). In mountainous conditions, literally up on the rock, the sound of that safety carries and is amplified enormously. I was with a hunter that spooked sheep twice in two days when he flicked the safety off from as far away as 200 yds. To me, that leaves older Ruger 77 w/ tang safety, a Sav 99 or BLR (tang safety or cock the hammer), a Browning or Tikka or Savage. If you can find a toggle safety that is very quiet (rare) then the Rem 700 and other rifles with that common safety. I've experienced this problem a number of times with my bear hunters too, although that is over bait at ranges 25 yds or less.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:25 pm

I'd opt for one of two rifles.

First choice would be a >45-70 lever-gun, Marlin, Browning which ever suits his budget. If I were not going to handload, I'd buy ammo from Garrett Cartridge Company. 450 gr. Hammerheads for bear, and 350 grain Superjacks for Elk. I'd probably go with Winchester or Remington standard pressure 350 gr. JSP's for deer and lion.

Second choice would be a Winchester Model 70 Safari Grade in .375 H&H Magnum. According to some very knowledgeable and experienced hunters, the .375 is the only cartridge that a man can take anywhere and be fully prepared to hunt any big game animal on earth.

Tell you buddy he'd impress his hunting partners even more if he bought a .22 rifle and shot it enough that he could drive nails and strike matches than he will with a big boomer that kicks the everliving snot out of him so that he develops a world class flinch.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:45 pm

I would suggest that he get a Marlin 336C in 35 Remington or 30-30, and tell him to practice with it regularly, and tell him to NEVER shoot at anything past 150 yards. It will teach him to be a better hunter. IMHO, I think the worst thing would be to give a novice a 30-06 and tell him it's good to 300 yards. He'll be wounding more animals than he kills, and he'll probably never learn the true joys of real hunting. Nobody would win.

bogie

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:52 pm

Yup. A 'scoped boltgun in .308 (1st choice) or .30-06 for that feller.

Bare-naked leverguns are for Riflemen, and may not be the best for today's brand of neophytes...

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:22 pm

Yep go '06. Use light loads (managed recoil) to learn on if recoil shy and work up to big boy loads.

Start out on 150gr loads regardless, will easily take the deer and lion with those and go to 165 or 180 for the elk.

Personally, I'd stay away from the 220's in an '06, since the trajectory goes to stuff and for a new hunter it's a lot to compensate for. You either use a round nose bullet that drops like a rock but will expand or use a pointed one that might not open.

jimincfalls · Post by **jimincfalls** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:12 am

A bolt action in .30 caliber would be a great choice, either 30-06 or .308. I went with the .308 so I could shoot F Class, as well, but that's only punching paper. For a dedicated hunting rifle the 30-06 is hard to beat.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:35 am

The Ruger No. 1, if you can afford a bit of extra dough, gives you what a bolt rifle gives you, but with some major class thrown in. Plus it's got a lever.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:59 am

If a 30/30 won't do then take the 58 patch ball rifle out.

If it's got to be a bolt I would favout a short action in 308.

06! Is there no trees around his place?

Nath.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:08 pm

C. Cash wrote:The Ruger No. 1, if you can afford a bit of extra dough, gives you what a bolt rifle gives you, but with some major class thrown in. Plus it's got a lever.

You know, I agree with that. Or a TC Encore, 1885 (Modern) Browning or Winchester. I fully believe a novice should learn to hunt with a single-shot. If you know you only have one shot, then shot placement and follow through become paramount in your mind, as you know you may not get a second chance.
I've seen people (the kind who shoot at a pie plate at 25 yards to sight in their gun) empty a 10 round mag out of a pump or auto-loader in order to take a deer. When one guy got to the processors, he got chewed out and told never to bring that kind of shot-up stuff back to his place of business again.

JMHO

a .30-'06, .270. .308, 280 are so similar it's not worth arguing about unless you just like to argue. I would see a definite benefit in a 7mm-08 for a light, compact rifle and new shooter.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:17 pm

6.5x55

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:23 pm

mescalero, I have a friend here in Arkansas that has one for sale.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:25 pm

I don't know if anyone mentioned the obvious yet, but if they haven't, I'd suggest the 30/06.

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:50 pm

30-06 +1

A comment on the ultra mag. My experience with deer sized game and magnums is that you will lose a lot of meat due to blood shot when you body shoot a critter with them. I've seen shoulder shots that destroyed the whole shoulder. I prefer standard velocity calibers like the 06 or 308.

The only time I ever had a "failure" with my 308 was when I shot uphill at a bull elk and hit the brisket bone. The angle was right, but the bullet didn't make it into the lung cavity. The force of the shot knocked the bull down in its tracks, but he was able to walk up the hill about 75 yards, and just stood there until I shot him in the head.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:01 pm

Jerrry,
I have one with plastic stock, set up in Scout configuration.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:21 pm

Bolt 308 WCF or 30-06. You can find that ammo in almost any corner Mom and Pop store in the U.S. Fairly light recoiling and you can get small fast ones loads or big slow ones. A piece of quality glass on top and you've got yourself a good shooter.

a357lever · Post by **a357lever** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:47 am

308 or 06 just can't beat em.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:57 pm

a357lever wrote:308 or 06 just can't beat em.

true. unless you are a model 94 freak like me. then, get the much maligned, nearly obsolete, .356 WCF. it'll work.

Camp Cook · Post by **Camp Cook** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:29 am

I had been thinking about this for years and finally thru trial and error feel that I have come up with the best answer to this question...

I shortened a Rem 700 LSS in 375RUM to 21" and did a few mod's with RL17 powder I shoot 260gr Accubonds @ 3000fps and 300gr Gamekings/Partitions/A-Frames @ 2730fps.

I mounted a VX3 4.5-14X40mm B&C reticle scope with Leupold quick dettachable QRW rings and bases when I pop the scope off I install an XS Sights Tall Weaver backup ghost ring sight to go with the NECG Masterpiece banded front sight ramp and fiber optic post.

Loaded with 4 rounds and the scope installed this combo weighs 9 1/2lbs so it is easy to pack all day and there is nothing in North America that this combo can't take care of.

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:45 am

Well I've got a M-700 in .30-06 but I would take my Win. M-71 over it, just because.

oic0 · Post by **oic0** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:08 am

Just to add to what the others keep saying, have him get that 30-06 everyone knows he should get...

but have him buy a cheap one and spend the leftover cash on a bolt action .22 so he can learn to shoot. It would be worth it since he could get a .22 and a brick for less than it would cost to buy enough ammo to learn to shoot with the 30-06. Not to mention it is a LOT easier to find somewhere safe to practice with a .22 than it is to find somewhere safe to practice with a high powered long range rifle.

SFRanger7GP · Post by **SFRanger7GP** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:09 pm

All great suggestions. Even though I don't own one, I would have to suggest a 30/06 bolt gun as well.

Whenever I get these type questions from a potential new gun owner, I try and get him (or her) to go to the range with me. I can let him try my guns and some of my buddies guns and introduce him to the greatest hobby, sport and people in the world. We have to jump on these opportunities to recruit new blood. It bothers me that at 46 I am one of the youngest members of the 2 gun clubs I shoot at.

gak · Post by **gak** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:58 pm

Major fan and true believer of the .270 and .30-30, and my choices for 40 years for their respective goodness, but for this gent's scenario +1 to the .30-06. The 7mm-08 comments were right on too--a stellar cartridge and the rifles that shoot it,...but for one caliber truly doing all it falls to the '06 -- as usual.

wilko · Post by **wilko** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:05 am

i am with Bogie on this one.... a 30-06 might be a bit heavy for a beginner unless he starts on managed recoil ammo.. a 30/30 or 35 rem will do just fine.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:16 am

mescalero1 wrote:6.5x55

+1

Or my favorite.....444!