Trying Lead bullets in my 30-30s = pt 2

[J Miller]

In my thread about trying lead bullets viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22223 many of you gave me suggestions and load data.
Leverbob sent me some dandy 180gr FNGC bullets:

Leverbobs bullet.JPG

Sorry LB, I forgot what mold you said they were from, CRS you know.

So I got busy and dug out a whole bunch of once and twice fired Winchester and W-W Super cases and started loading.
All cases were trimmed to 2.028" after full sizing and expanded with a Lyman M die. All cartridges loaded to an OAL of 2.540".

Here is what I have loaded:

.....Case..............Primer...............Powder / Wt..................crimp
Winchester.......Win-LR-WLR.......IMR 3031 / 28.0grs.......seating die
Winchester.......Win-LR-WLR.......IMR 4320 / 30.3grs........seating die
Winchester........Win-LR-WLR......Win 760 / 33.6grs.........seating die
W-W Super.......Magtech-LR-9½...Win 748 / 29.5grs.........Lee FCD
W-W Super.......Magtech-LR-9½...Alli Unique / 10.0grs......Lee FCD


So now I need four things to coincide.
A- A nice sunny non windy day.
B- Me to feel good enough to drive 90 miles round trip and shoot
C- A tank full of gas
D- Cash for range fees

After that I'll know weather all you lead bullet fans are really telling the truth, or are just fooling with us jacketed bullet fans.

One more thought though, loading with the rifle powders was easy. Once the cases were charged it was easy to see the powder in each case, and a double charge would have overfilled it. However unlike with handgun cases, the 10grs of Unique was very difficult to see in the cases and I could have tripled charged them before they'd over fill. Unless that Unique load is incredibly accurate, I'll not be loading it again in rifle cases.

So LB and everyone, thanks for the bullets, tips and data.

I'll report back when I've shot 'em up.

Joe

[Chuck 100 yd]

GOOD LUCK Joe! I bet that Unique load will surprise you in how it shoots. They are usually soft and very accurate but probably wont print in the same place as your jacketed bullet level loads.

[JohndeFresno]

Waiting for results, Joe!

[flatnose]

Mr Miller,
May I make a suggestion?
I have tried most of the loads that you have listed, using the Bear Creek 180grn bullet, with the exception of the 4320 powder.
I experienced bad bore fouling within two or three shots... hopefully your results may differ.
I would suggest shooting the unique loads first. These should go out at around 1350 fps, and of all the loads, will be the least likely to lead the bore.
When using the unique, I always check the powder level with a flashlight, and an even better method, may be to use a dowel marked accordingly.
p.s you may want to try the loads at 50 yds, or if you go to 100, use a large backer board, as you may run out of elevation with the unique loads.
I also tried lowering the charges of 748, 760 and 3031. I even went below start loads, but still got leading.
I also tried imr4198, and took the loads way down, and accuracy and leading were horrible.
all the best with your experimenting.

[J Miller]

Mr Miller,
May I make a suggestion?
I have tried most of the loads that you have listed, using the Bear Creek 180grn bullet, with the exception of the 4320 powder.
I experienced bad bore fouling within two or three shots... hopefully your results may differ.
I would suggest shooting the unique loads first. These should go out at around 1350 fps, and of all the loads, will be the least likely to lead the bore.
When using the unique, I always check the powder level with a flashlight, and an even better method, may be to use a dowel marked accordingly.
p.s you may want to try the loads at 50 yds, or if you go to 100, use a large backer board, as you may run out of elevation with the unique loads.
I also tried lowering the charges of 748, 760 and 3031. I even went below start loads, but still got leading.
I also tried imr4198, and took the loads way down, and accuracy and leading were horrible.
all the best with your experimenting.

flatnose,

That leading you speak of is why I've ignored lead bullets in rifle cartridges for as long as I have. I used that data because that's what powder I have, and Leverbob sent me the data with the bullets.
I've loaded 20 of each load. I have two rifles to try them in.

My thoughts on rifles is simple, I want full power loads. I'm not looking for plinking or cowboy action type loads.
I tried the Unique load because lots of folks said it was good. I probably won't use it much because it is so under powdered.

Should I end up with the leading you speak of, that will be the end of my lead bullet experiment.

I do appreciate the tips and suggestions. As for checking the powder level in the Unique charged cases I did use a flashlight.

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

If your 180 gr. bullet is not gas checked you will get leading with most of those loads. Not the Unique load.

The leading will occur in front of the chamberat the leade of the rifling.
A quick way to get it out is with a few jacketed rounds.

[LeverBob]

Howdy Boys!!!

Joe...the mold is a single cavity LEE 170 gr. FNGC. When capped & lubed they weigh in at about 183 grs. The are water dropped & timed to the drop. Ones that "stick in the mold" are culled. The BHN is about 22. They are as accurate as any other mold I have in 30 Cal. Just need a little TLC when in use. Start at 50yrds. & them move to 100.

When you try the Unique loads, shoot them at 25 yrds. They are designed as small game loads primarily at that distance.

Good luck on your experiment & I hope my "boolits" are accurate enough to convert you from the "Dark Side." Heh!

Best to you pard...
LB

[J Miller]

I am going to try to get to the outdoor range before the weather really goes to pot here.

Joe

[flatnose]

Good luck Joe, and post your results please.
Leverbob, how about a post on your bullets. It would be interesting to read about any results you may have.

[KirkD]

Joe, I'm using a cast RCBS 150 grain gas checked bullet over 28 grains of IMR 3031. Never had any leading that I could ever detect. Bore always looks shiny and clean. I've even fired them out the bore, with more powder, at almost 2,300 fps and still never had any leading. Like others have mentioned, I think it is the gas check that keeps the bore shiny.

[J Miller]

The gas check is an important part. I know this from shooting some smoking .357s bullets at high speeds.

LeverBobs bullets all have nice little copper diapers on them, so I'm hoping for the best.

Joe

[LeverBob]

One last thing Joe...make sure you have cleaned ALL the copper out of the barrel. If not, the bullets will lead & be inaccurate.

flatnose...I will do a post on lead boolits, but first I have to fix my 'puter for the pics. Upandcoming soon. Thanks for asking.

LB

[J Miller]

One last thing Joe...make sure you have cleaned ALL the copper out of the barrel. If not, the bullets will lead & be inaccurate.

flatnose...I will do a post on lead boolits, but first I have to fix my 'puter for the pics. Upandcoming soon. Thanks for asking.

LB

Now, LB why would I want to do that? Let's put it this way. My primary ammo is jacketed. I keep 'em clean and there is minimal copper build up. But to remove all of it for this one test would be prohibitively time consuming.

I'll see what happens after I clean them again real good, but it's really doubtful that I'll ever get all the jacket fouling out.

Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll work OK. Who knows.

Joe

[tdoor]

Mr Miller,
May I make a suggestion?
I have tried most of the loads that you have listed, using the Bear Creek 180grn bullet, with the exception of the 4320 powder.
I experienced bad bore fouling within two or three shots... hopefully your results may differ.
I would suggest shooting the unique loads first. These should go out at around 1350 fps, and of all the loads, will be the least likely to lead the bore.
When using the unique, I always check the powder level with a flashlight, and an even better method, may be to use a dowel marked accordingly.
p.s you may want to try the loads at 50 yds, or if you go to 100, use a large backer board, as you may run out of elevation with the unique loads.
I also tried lowering the charges of 748, 760 and 3031. I even went below start loads, but still got leading.
I also tried imr4198, and took the loads way down, and accuracy and leading were horrible.
all the best with your experimenting.

flatnose,

That leading you speak of is why I've ignored lead bullets in rifle cartridges for as long as I have. I used that data because that's what powder I have, and Leverbob sent me the data with the bullets.
I've loaded 20 of each load. I have two rifles to try them in.

My thoughts on rifles is simple, I want full power loads. I'm not looking for plinking or cowboy action type loads.
I tried the Unique load because lots of folks said it was good. I probably won't use it much because it is so under powdered.

Should I end up with the leading you speak of, that will be the end of my lead bullet experiment.

I do appreciate the tips and suggestions. As for checking the powder level in the Unique charged cases I did use a flashlight.

Joe

Hi Joe-

I've successfully used 3031 and 4895 @ around 28 grains +/- with 170 GC bullets and don't have a leading problem in my 30-30's. However, if you do experience leading, it is not aways because of the the powder charge, but because of projectile size relative to your throat/bore.

Most recently, I was experiencing leading in an approximately full power 25-35 GC load, sized .258 (the only sizer I had at the time). I eventually elimated the leading by sizing .260. I have had other analogous experiences with other guns and cartridges, including 30-30. Good luck with your experiment.
tdoor

[Lefty Dude]

One last thing Joe...make sure you have cleaned ALL the copper out of the barrel. If not, the bullets will lead & be inaccurate.

flatnose...I will do a post on lead boolits, but first I have to fix my 'puter for the pics. Upandcoming soon. Thanks for asking.

LB

An interesting article in this months issue of Handloader.
"Cast Bullet Myth Busting", by Mike Venturino
This is the Dec. 2009 issue, I bought last Week at WM.

Mike say's your statement is a Myth, and is unnessary.
I have always thought this was correct also, as it was published in the Lyman cast bullet manual.

Joe;
do not clean your barrel of the copper fouling and let us know the results.

[J Miller]

One last thing Joe...make sure you have cleaned ALL the copper out of the barrel. If not, the bullets will lead & be inaccurate.

flatnose...I will do a post on lead boolits, but first I have to fix my 'puter for the pics. Upandcoming soon. Thanks for asking.

LB

An interesting article in this months issue of Handloader.
"Cast Bullet Myth Busting", by Mike Venturino
This is the Dec. 2009 issue, I bought last Week at WM.

Mike say's your statement is a Myth, and is unnessary.
I have always thought this was correct also, as it was published in the Lyman cast bullet manual.

Joe;
do not clean your barrel of the copper fouling and let us know the results.

OK

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

Soon, I will be working up a cast load for my Handi/.308. This piece has jacket fouling in the bore. I will also check out this Myth or not, Mike speaks.

I think you will soon be a cast bullet convert, Joe.

[C. Cash]

"copper diaper"....that is funny. The've sure worked for me. Based on info given to me by Jr., Lobo, Slim Iorg and some others on the cast bullet forum a number of years ago, I started with the philosophy of using a case filling powder that was relatively slow burning. Bullets .001 to .002 over groove diameter. Also, was advised to seat the bullet out to where it just starting to egrave and then back off a frog's hair. I've usually gotten groups as good or better than my jacketed loads. Look forward to your results Joe!

[LeverBob]

"copper diaper"....that is funny. The've sure worked for me. Based on info given to me by Jr., Lobo, Slim Iorg and some others on the cast bullet forum a number of years ago, I started with the philosophy of using a case filling powder that was relatively slow burning. Bullets .001 to .002 over groove diameter. Also, was advised to seat the bullet out to where it just starting to egrave and then back off a frog's hair. I've usually gotten groups as good or better than my jacketed loads. Look forward to your results Joe!

This is sound advice...especially in a Marlin Micro-Groove. Size to the chamber-advice from Veral Smith & Marshall Stanton, Paco, Jim Taylor, Skeeter Skelton, Frank Marshall Jr., Dennis Marshall, John Kort (aka wcf30) & me.

Venturino? No offense boys, but I've been casting & shooting lead boolits for 51 yrs. this year. I'll be interested in y'alls results, however, I will keep my own counsil on what works & what doesn't.

Joe...clean the barrels real good! Shoot a couple of fouling shots & then shoot for score.

LB

[J Miller]

"copper diaper"....that is funny. The've sure worked for me. Based on info given to me by Jr., Lobo, Slim Iorg and some others on the cast bullet forum a number of years ago, I started with the philosophy of using a case filling powder that was relatively slow burning. Bullets .001 to .002 over groove diameter. Also, was advised to seat the bullet out to where it just starting to egrave and then back off a frog's hair. I've usually gotten groups as good or better than my jacketed loads. Look forward to your results Joe!

This is sound advice...especially in a Marlin Micro-Groove. Size to the chamber-advice from Veral Smith & Marshall Stanton, Paco, Jim Taylor, Skeeter Skelton, Frank Marshall Jr., Dennis Marshall, John Kort (aka wcf30) & me.

Venturino? No offense boys, but I've been casting & shooting lead boolits for 51 yrs. this year. I'll be interested in y'alls results, however, I will keep my own counsil on what works & what doesn't.

Joe...clean the barrels real good! Shoot a couple of fouling shots & then shoot for score.

LB

LB,
That is/was always my intention.
However it looks like I won't be getting to the range any time soon. According to the weather man it looks like a rainy/snowy Thanksgiving and weekend.
I don't tolerate the cold very well any more so unless we have an Indian summer it will be next spring before I can shoot the rifle caliber long guns.

J e

[LeverBob]

"copper diaper"....that is funny. The've sure worked for me. Based on info given to me by Jr., Lobo, Slim Iorg and some others on the cast bullet forum a number of years ago, I started with the philosophy of using a case filling powder that was relatively slow burning. Bullets .001 to .002 over groove diameter. Also, was advised to seat the bullet out to where it just starting to egrave and then back off a frog's hair. I've usually gotten groups as good or better than my jacketed loads. Look forward to your results Joe!

This is sound advice...especially in a Marlin Micro-Groove. Size to the chamber-advice from Veral Smith & Marshall Stanton, Paco, Jim Taylor, Skeeter Skelton, Frank Marshall Jr., Dennis Marshall, John Kort (aka wcf30) & me.

Venturino? No offense boys, but I've been casting & shooting lead boolits for 51 yrs. this year. I'll be interested in y'alls results, however, I will keep my own counsil on what works & what doesn't.

Joe...clean the barrels real good! Shoot a couple of fouling shots & then shoot for score.

LB

LB,
That is/was always my intention.
However it looks like I won't be getting to the range any time soon. According to the weather man it looks like a rainy/snowy Thanksgiving and weekend.
I don't tolerate the cold very well any more so unless we have an Indian summer it will be next spring before I can shoot the rifle caliber long guns.

J e

No matter Jose...I'm all for you pard, shoot 'em when you can I'll be glad to help anyone on this forum, anytime. Anything to get the pards into cast shooting. When you put one of YOUR boolits into a deer, bear or elk/moose, the satisfaction is beyond compare. One less tie to the factories, one more step to self sufficiency. I like that, a lot.

By the way...I saw your post which showed your reloading setup...nice, tight & economical. A good setup...especially that B-2 press

LB

[2row]

Hi Joe hate to hear about the weather being bad up your way. I have been useing cast for years in every thing I have an have never had any leading (I don't shoot any wimp loads) Iam using a lyman 30 cal bullit at this time 180gr gc over 26 gr of Data 68 powder killed a doe sun no problyms I've been useing cast sence 1982 an with the price of stuff now I will contunue good luck Robert

[jhrosier]

.... However unlike with handgun cases, the 10grs of Unique was very difficult to see in the cases and I could have tripled charged them before they'd over fill. Unless that Unique load is incredibly accurate, I'll not be loading it again in rifle cases. ...

Joe,
Just one more tip....
When I load rifle cartridges with full charges or light charges, I place them mouth down in the loading block after priming.
Then I take a case from the block, charge the powder and immediately seat the bullet.
Since the case is upside down in the block before charging, there is no way it could get a double charge unless I deliberately work the measure twice.
I have been doing this for many years with good results and recommend it to new handloaders.

Jack

[LeverBob]

"Hi Joe hate to hear about the weather being bad up your way. I have been useing cast for years in every thing I have an have never had any leading (I don't shoot any wimp loads) Iam using a lyman 30 cal bullit at this time 180gr gc over 26 gr of Data 68 powder killed a doe sun no problyms I've been useing cast sence 1982 an with the price of stuff now I will contunue good luck Robert "

Boy Howdy! I can read posts like this for hours. A new load with a powder I haven't used. Keep 'em comin' boys!

LB

[J Miller]

Never heard of Data 68 powder. Who, what, why, when, where & how?

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

Never heard of Data 68 powder. Who, what, why, when, where & how?

Joe

Must be a Milsup powder. This is a new one on me also.

[flatnose]

Data 68 powder is an accurate arms product.
Here ya go........http://www.accuratepowder.com/datapowder.htm

[J Miller]

flatnose, thanks for the link.

Joe