peep sight - oops?

[bdhold]

I had a Marble's tang sight sight installed on my 1873 and it came back from the gunsmith leaving me dismayed.
I love the view through the peep and the aperture lets my tired eyes see everything, which I can't quite do with the standard iron sights.
(Haven't had the gun at the range - it's only been in my possession a few days between my business travel and it's trip to the gunsmith.)
Per the Marble's video, he centered the front screw on the tang, but the sight leans about 5 to 10 degrees to the right off center of the barrel. I still have the rear buckhorn and front blade sights in place. My logic is the tang ought to look down these sights and line up as the starting point, which I can do if I take the front screw out and rotate the front sight about 1/16" off the hole he drilled. Again, it seems to me this ought to be the starting point before I remove the rear buckhorn sight. I can't imagine that if the sight doesn't align down the barrel, I will have enough adjustment from moving the front blade and using the Marble's tang sight windage adjustment to line this up.
Any thoughts for me? Thanks.

[Hobie]

I need photos because I don't think I understand the problem. I thought these guns were coming D&T for the tang sights now. Must have gotten that from my 1876 SRC which is D&T for the tang peeps.

First, if the tang is correctly shaped and not twisted and the screw holes are in line with the barrel the sight should align correctly. That it doesn't implies that that the forward screw hole isn't perpendicular to the top of the tang but is at a sideways angle thus appearing to be centered but moving the sight to one side as the screw is tightened. Because the sight base bottom is concave to mate with the convex top of the tang this might exacerbate the deviation.

I would be pretty ticked off not merely disappointed.

[bdhold]

thanks, I just came back from the manager of the gunshop who stands by his gunsmith (these guys have a stellar reputation).
He told me they followed the video perfectly and if the problem is the radius of the sight base, I could consider sanding down one of the sight base (and implied shimming the opposite side) to move it to vertical.
I'll get some photos for you this afternoon.

Thanks again.

[Modoc ED]

It is common that once a tang sight is installed that it does not align along the centerline of the barrel. That is why you will see articles, posts, etc. about shimming the tang sight so as to bring it into line with the centerline of the barrel. Some say that you need to shim the tang sight to adjust bullet impact from one side to the other but the purpose of shimming should be to bring the tang sight into alignment with the centerline of the barrel.

[bdhold]

thanks, I found this article which references shimming a Lyman sight with paper
http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/F ... erview.htm
paper? any other suggestions for me?

OK, here is one that references steel shim stock.
http://www.columbiaprecision.com/installation.htm
(I wanted to use the mallet on the gunsmith, but I was a calm gentleman, instead.)

[Wind]

Hey there – bulldog1935

I think you are correct using the barrel sights to align the tang sight. If the sight base is parallel with the tang, I’d be inclined to file a little off the “high” side of the sight base. It shouldn’t take much to shift the vertical axis five degrees or so. You could use the barrel sight to check the relationship of the tang sight as you go. If you go slow and check often you’ll be OK. Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[Pisgah]

No two tangs are exactly alike, and this is what is giving your lean. The gunsmith didn't cause it, the gun's maker did. Getting mad at the gunmith is like getting mad at my Mama for the fact I have blue eyes -- God made me that way, she just delivered the package!

The cure is to use a thin shim on the "low" side. This, in fact, is how you adjust windage on Lyman tang sights with no windage adjustments. I've never had to shim a Marble's sight with windage adjutment -- that's one reason the adjustment is there. But if the lean is too great, shim.

[bdhold]

I was friendly with him when I saw him this morning, and took neither him nor his boss to task.
You won't mind if I get mad at my ex-wife, will you?
(I was making a joke about the mallet in the article I referenced)

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

No two tangs are exactly alike, and this is what is giving your lean. The gunsmith didn't cause it, the gun's maker did. Getting mad at the gunmith is like getting mad at my Mama for the fact I have blue eyes -- God made me that way, she just delivered the package!

The cure is to use a thin shim on the "low" side. This, in fact, is how you adjust windage on Lyman tang sights with no windage adjustments. I've never had to shim a Marble's sight with windage adjutment -- that's one reason the adjustment is there. But if the lean is too great, shim.

I agree, from rifle to rifle the contour of the tangs will vary slightly. This is because when fitting stocks, they bolt a semi inlet-ted piece of wood on to an in-the-white receiver/gun and sand both at the same time. Then they take them apart and # the wood to the ser. # of the receiver/gun. send them on there separate paths to be finished. What this means is no two stock or tang will be exactly the same.
I prefer not to use shims, though. Most tang sights are mounted using the stock screw so if you have to remove the stock you will most likely loose the shim. I prefer to reshape the bottom contour of the sight base.

[Grizz]

suggest brass shims ILO steel ones...

and.... that you align by looking from the business end getting the peeper to line up with the front sight by looking down the length of the barrel. your eye can get this down to a nat's posterior...

Regards

Grizz

[Hillbilly]

brass shim stock is "predictable"...you can buy it in known dimensions.

Aluminum pop can works in a pinch.

[Borregos]

Just the night before last I fitted a Lyman tang sight to my old Winchester 94 manufactured in 1914, the second hole was already there in the tang so it was easy to fit. I had to shim one side .030 to get everything into line. Shot it today and it is great to use

[jnyork]

I have installed probably about a dozen Marbles tang sights, they were all OK except for my own, I had to shim it quite a bit. Brownells has shim stock for the purpose.

[AJMD429]

I am kind of surprised that the gunsmith didn't either shim it for you, or file the bottom, if you were paying for the installation.

(Still, I'd never complain, I'd just be glad they didn't drill the holes in the lower tang by mistake or something; some of my 'gunsmith' experiences have left me scared of the locals.)

[Cimarron Red]

Bulldog,

Welcome to the site. I believe I've read and enjoyed many of your posts on Clark's Cane Rod Board. Good luck with plumbing that tang sight.

[bdhold]

hi guys, thanks for all your insight, I've tried shimming it this afternoon with fine-trimmed layers of copper tape, and a dozen fine strips wasn't quite enough to get it vertical; although, I could get it centered with most of the windage adjustment. I'm going to have to back up and go the sanding route.

Hi Red, thanks for your welcome, and yes, I'm the Young fly reel guy...
http://bulldog1935.u.yuku.com/

[COSteve]

I guess I got lucky with my Marbles tang on my Rossi. Within my old eyes ability to check, it looks like the tang is vertical and when I lined it up with the existing sights it measured .002" off of center (which I can't even see). The proof was at the range where I shot at 200yds with both sets of sights off of a sandbag and they both hit to POA (again, within my ability to shoot).

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

hi guys, thanks for all your insight, I've tried shimming it this afternoon with fine-trimmed layers of copper tape, and a dozen fine strips wasn't quite enough to get it vertical; although, I could get it centered with most of the windage adjustment. I'm going to have to back up and go the sanding route.

Hi Red, thanks for your welcome, and yes, I'm the Young fly reel guy...
http://bulldog1935.u.yuku.com/

I prefer to re-shape the base, too. But shims do come in handy so you might consider a trip to the auto parts store. You can usually find feeler gages their relatively cheap. They can be easily cut with metal shears and will give you a variety of thickness's to choose from.

[DPris]

Regardless of variations in tangs and the gunsmith's stellar rep, properly aligning the tang sight should have been done when it was installed, by whichever method the gunsmith chose to use.
Final adjustments are a matter of range time with a chosen load & would require more time & expense if done by the smith, but the primary or "coarse" alignment can & should be done by using the existing sights as basic reference points without ever having to leave the shop.

I'm surprised the guy who did the work let it go at merely bolting it on, and if it were my gun it would have stayed there until it was finished correctly.
I had a tang sight installed on a Marlin .38-55 a while back, and it was properly done as part of the process. Should I ever do it again, it wouldn't be paid for if it wasn't finished when I went in to pick it up. I'm no gun mechanic, I pay professionals who know what they're doing for things like that, and I do not figure on correcting their mistakes or completing a half-finished job after I've gotten the gun in question home.
There are occasional minor glitches that surface later, and in those rare cases I take the gun back to the smith for any corrections needed. A man who stands behind his work will usually handle those corrections without further charges if they're the result of the initial work he did. Something as obvious as a canted mis-alignment on a tang sight should never have gone home.

When you pay for something like that, unless you specify up front that you just want the sight mounted & you'll take care of any further modifications or adjustments needed yourself, the assumption is that the sight will be operational & ready to use (at least as far as sighting it in goes) when the gunsmith calls to say your rifle's ready.

Denis

[Hobie]

It is amazing what passes for a gunsmith nowadays.

[flatnose]

At the risk of generalizing I agree with Hobie.
I had a similar problem with a tang sight, and corrected it myself by bedding the sight base to the tang.
Shim the base to the correct angle with masking tape affixed to the tang. Degrease the sight base, and roughen it lightly with some 80 grit emory cloth. Apply epoxy putty to base and fasten down lightly with the screws. Let the epoxy set up, and trim any suplus with a blade.
p.s. it is a good idea to wax the tang in the area underneath the base to aid removal of the base.

[bdhold]

making progress here.
I bought a steel shim selection and started with layered strips of copper tape, as I mentioned above.
After that I started filing the other side and then went to make a better shim - when I measured the thickness of my copper tape layers, I was surprised to find it was 22 mils, and I'm sure I've filed 20 mils from the opposite side, as well.
But have I a nice new 20 mil steel shim in place and am within a few hairs of getting it perfectly vertical.
Compounded by the fact that I don't have the correct tang screw.
I thought a Uberti 1873 set from Marbles would work, but it's the wrong thread - 10-32, and the tang screw on my Chaparral 1873 is 12-28. So and I have it very close, and I'm waiting until I get the correct tang screw to dress the final filing. I have a great selection of jeweler's file shapes, so I can get this real fine.

I came up with a very happy means to optically prove vertical on the tang sight. As I mentioned, I'm using the buckhorns and front post in combo as my starting alignment on the tang sight. When I'm happy with that, I'll use the buckhorns and tang sight to initially align a new front globe. When I'm happy with that, I'll knock out the buckhorns and take it to the range.
To prove the vertical, I start by raising the tang sight and tweaking the windage until the tapers on the bottom of the front blade meet each corner of the buckhorn (all of this is looking through the target aperture). Then I lower the tang and watch the blade change lateral position. When I have the tang perfectly vertical, it won't change laterally - it will stay centered. But I'm a lot closer than I thought I would ever be when I first saw that tang sight canted way off to the right.

Thanks again for all your insight - I'll eventually take some photos and post them - sorry I didn't photograph it ugly to show you guys.

[Gun Smith]

Don't forget you can buy aluminum duct tape that is sticky on one side. That roll will last about 700 years. Or you can swing by your local heating and a/c dealer and get a 6" piece from him for free. It should last about 15 years. Just keep adding sticky layers to the side opposite the way you want the bullet to go.

[DPris]

Far more work than I'd ever do to clean up a botched gunsmithing job.
Denis

[bdhold]

whatchagonnado? Write off an $800 rifle?
Nope, I'm going to baby it until I have it the way I want it. It's a good project for me.
I won't be going back to that gunsmith.

[DPris]

No, I wouldn't write it off.
I'd first be politely insistent that the original gunsmith correct the problem if it's within his capabilities. If not, I'd be politely insistent on a refund. If neither of those worked, I'd be less polite in my insistence. The work was demonstrably incomplete & incorrectly done, which should not be hard to explain to a manager, or a manager's boss.
If the guy is incapable of correcting his incomplete work, I'd be finding a competent gunsmith who could.

I simply don't have the time, mechanical ability, or interest to work on my guns beyond very basic maintenance.
I pay professionals who are far less likely to screw something up than I am for things like that.
Unfortunately, your so-called "pro" wasn't, in my opinion.

Wish you luck with it.

Denis

[KCSO]

Video be dammed, the sight base needs to be lapped to sit square. They lean quite often from the factory and you either shim (quickie fix) or lap the base to fit it square. I have to do this every now and again. It's no different than having to lap in scope rings or shim bases nothing made universal is going to be a perfect fit on anything. If your gunsmith??? has to watch a video to put on a tang sight he's not much a a smith.

[bdhold]

I finally got my Chaparral 1873 .357 to the range today.
Using a Uberti Beech sight up front and a Marble's tang sight. I replaced the rear buckhorns with a level.
Mechanism was a bugger since the extractor wouldn't pull the spent brass past halfway, and I had to do it all by hand, but aside from that...(caught my thumb in it once real good, but I kept the blood off the steel...)
after a bore sight, my first 100-yd shot was dead elevation and 5" right on the windage.
By the end of 50 rounds, I was grouping 3 inches and hit 3/4 diamonds on the last 4 shots.
I was shooting Ultramax 125-gr RNFP cowboy stuff (reported 850 fps out of a pistol and while I'm sure my 24" barrel was beating that velocity, it was all subsonic). Looking forward to making some loads now.
Planning to start with 130-gr. RNFP lead with 10 grains 4227, and ease up from there.
But yes, I was surprised and delighted with the result.

[bdhold]

I need some overcast, but here's the basic setup

[JReed]

OH very nice. I really like that front sight.

[bdhold]

thanks, as I said, I really like the level in place of the rear buckhorns - in fact, with the sights folded the level is actually easier for my tired eyes to shoot on the front blade than buckhorns would be.

[pokey]

nice job.

like the level.

[bdhold]

I guess if I push the distance out, it may actually matter, but what it really does is improve my concentration on the sight image. As I said, I was surprised and delighted with my groups.

[futura]

thanks, as I said, I really like the level in place of the rear buckhorns - in fact, with the sights folded the level is actually easier for my tired eyes to shoot on the front blade than buckhorns would be.

Your gun is really coming together well. Good job.

Where did you get that level in place of the rear buckhorn? I search Brownells but had no luck.