POLITICS - Border fences and uncontrolled illegal aliens

[J Miller]

On the one hand our current administration seems to want to allow every illegal alien from every third world country to sneak into the United States.

On the other hand congress passed a border fence bill and Bush II signed it into law.
And now the feds are sueing some cities and private land owners to take (steal ) their land for the fence.

I AM CONFUSED.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323191,00.html

Texas City Ordered to Turn Over Land to Feds for Border Fence Construction

Wednesday, January 16, 2008

WASHINGTON —
A federal judge has ordered a small border city in Texas to temporarily turn over its land to the federal government so it can begin to build a border fence.

U.S. District Judge Alia Moses Ludlum ordered the city of Eagle Pass, on the border about 100 miles southwest of San Antonio, to "surrender" 233 acres of city-owned land. The Justice Department sued the city for access to the land.

The Homeland Security Department is trying to build 370 miles of border fence by the end of the year. A law signed by President Bush and supported by both of Texas' U.S. senators mandated a total of 700 miles of fence along the border. The government had warned the city, which opposes the fence, it would sue under eminent domain laws to secure access to the property, declaring it is "taking" the property for 180 days.

The judge's order, issued Monday in the Texas Western District Court, Del Rio division, said the United States, the plaintiff, is entitled to possession or control of the property as requested.

"Well, that seems a little heavy handed," Eagle Pass Mayor Chad Foster said Wednesday in an interview with The Associated Press.

Foster is the head of the Texas Border Coalition, a group of border mayors, city officials and business leaders who opposed Homeland Security's border fence plans and have complained that they haven't had enough input on the effects of the fence on their communities.

Ludlum ordered the property to be surrendered by Tuesday. Foster said the city of about 25,000 was served with papers from the lawsuit Tuesday and officials were busy with a council meeting and other matters and hadn't completely reviewed the documents.

The Justice Department is expected to file 102 lawsuits against landowners for access to property the Border Patrol and Army Corps of Engineers want to survey to decide where to put border fencing or other barriers.

Several landowners have given the government access to their land, including some who oppose the fence. But many others in Texas, Arizona and California have refused, prompting the lawsuits.

[gon2shoot]

But it's for the greater good comrad.

[MacEntyre]

I wonder how much land on each side of the fence the feds are 'taking' for a buffer zone?

[Blackhawk]

The Justice Department is expected to file 102 lawsuits against landowners for access to property the Border Patrol and Army Corps of Engineers want to survey to decide where to put border fencing or other barriers.

How about on or as possibly close to the border? No buffer zone needed to the other side. Put signs that you touch you will be shot.

I hate politics.

[Charles]

The University of Texas at Brownsville backed by he UT Board of Regents in Austin has filed a law suit to block the wall. The proposed wall would slice off about 1/3 of it's campus and put class room buildings , lab building and and faculty offices on the wrong side of fence. The Feds said they woud put a hole in the fence on the campus, but everybody would have to pass by armed Federal agents and show proper identification to move from one class to another.

The U.T. leadership figures this is not the America they know and would place an undue burden on the University and it's mission to educate.

It will take years for this and other law suits to work their way through the Texas and Federal court systems.

[tman]

if the administration was really serious about TERROR, it would have sealed the borders off immediately. instead of frisking little old ladies at the airport, our attention and resources would have been focused at the borders. nobody would get through. but corporate america needs it 's uninterrupted supply of slave labor to force the wages of TAX paying americans down. it makes me sick to think about it.

[Bogie35]

if the administration was really serious about TERROR, it would have sealed the borders off immediately. instead of frisking little old ladies at the airport, our attention and resources would have been focused at the borders. nobody would get through. but corporate america needs it 's uninterrupted supply of slave labor to force the wages of TAX paying americans down. it makes me sick to think about it.

+1,000,000!

bogie

[ScottT]

You guys screamed for a fence. Charles and I told you it was a bad idea.

How do we build the dang thing without taking land that rightfully belongs to someone else?

This is not right, we fought against such a wall in Germany....

[Swampman]

If you want to why we are headed for a recession, it's because without undocumented employees our economy will fail. I told you so.

[FWiedner]

They aren't gonna build a wall. They are just gonna take the land.

Maybe they'll make a place for the poor tired immigrants to rest after crossing the river.

I think they are going to confiscate the land and rip the owners off just to teach the American people a lesson about who's in charge.

[azoil]

What do we need to do in order to take "OUR" country back from Washington?

[Old Time Hunter]

Can't see as they need to build a wall when the Rio Grande is a natural barrier, just need to post some artillery on our side along with the Gatlin gun nests to shoot every one trying to invade.

[FWiedner]

Can't see as they need to build a wall when the Rio Grande is a natural barrier, just need to post some artillery on our side along with the Gatlin gun nests to shoot every one trying to invade.

Yankee ingenuity still lives...

[Leverdude]

Can't see as they need to build a wall when the Rio Grande is a natural barrier, just need to post some artillery on our side along with the Gatlin gun nests to shoot every one trying to invade.

Problem being the rivers only part of the border.
What I dont understand is why it needs to cut off anyones land if its on the border. Unless someones land is half in Mexico it shouldn't effect them.
Where there is a river put the fence on the Mexican side.
All seems silly to me tho. Its an international border. Just let border patrol shoot or chase them back to their side if Mexico will cooperate & prosecute. If they wont cooperate, just shoot. Wouldn't take long for it to stop.
Folks say if they had no work they wouldn't come. If they got shot at I bet they'd stop too.

[Caco]

A lot of B. S. about the economy depending on undocumented workers. They and their families put a great economic load on our health care facilities, schools and other infrastructure. Our own people did these jobs before some program made it unneccessary to work. Also the availabilty of these people and their willingness to work cheaply don't encourage some to compete for jobs as they used to. Just don't believe that labour is cheap after you fiqure the whole cost.
Used to be able to hire high school and college kids for part time help readily- the are too busy with activities and leisure now and don't need to work to spend. Lose-lose deal. Taxpayer funded no need to work and services provided for people who can't afford to pay.
As far as the fence, seems like a lot of people determined to make it an impossible deal. Why the hell would you put part of a campus on the other side. As mentioned before that river is the boundry and some fence with a 60 to 100 foot right away should not be any more difficult than any other two lane road.
With a tall fence like around power stations and other security areas to slow people down backed by electonic survailance and personel in the proper areas and air response should work even with long stretches of open area.
Everybody is just puting obsticles in the way including the will to do it. Also not giving the border patrol authority to use force and protect themselves just make them targets.
Full time and guard units with aircraft usually have a certain amount of training time that could be incorperated.
Simply a mater of will. Again it is acceptable to acquire land for roads with varring levels of compensation and forcably if neccessary for the common good. It is accepted that people need to get from point a to point b and elswhere and it requires land to do that. If done with common sense, this should be no different.
Now this border thing will never be 100% effective but could drastically slow things down and if aprehended and there was a penalty less would try.
The reallity is that these people are comming at a increasingly rapid rate and the so called jobs that nobody want's keep increasing in all areas including contracting construction. Without an effort to stop this it will push up into lower managment etc. This will tend to put pressure in higher areas and effectivly we will have to lower our standard of income and living to meet their level of willingness. Put another way their standard of living rises as ours lowers till they average out. meanwhile were still footing the bill.
Can you blame any one for trying to better themselves even at some one elses expense if there is no deterence.
But you can wonder about closing your eyes.
Dave

[Swampman]

It's not the cost of the labor. It's finding somone that will work. It's nearly impossible to find anyone that's reliable, and willing to work. Finding someone that can pass a drug test isn't easy either. In the construction business it's almost impossible.

[45-70-]

I have been a huge supporter of a fence or wall or landmines or all of them. They just need to build it right on the line. There is no need to take land.
Charles, can you explain the university thing a little better? To me it sounds like they built part of it over the border.
After the southern fence is built we need to go north and build another one. Isolation is a beautiful thing.

[Caco]

Not an expert on drugs-that said where are these drugs comming from Know some are manufactured here like meth, but a lot of pressure on restricting the availability of components has helped along with the retirement plan for the makers
I am under the impression the greater amount comes from various south american countries over the Mexican border. There are other routes also, but is the border a big part of the drug problem
If so many are on drugs and not employable, how do they get money to buy them. Could part of it be welfare. Pay someone not to work, deliver the check in the mail and they do what they get paid for.
This gets back to liberal politics and the way support is garnered. How many democrates are campaigning on controlling the border?
It'll be OK, just close your eyes
Dave

[Swampman]

Most drugs are flown into the Miami airport, or come in in the holds of freighters. They are not hand carried.

[Caco]

Granted their is more than one route. Guess that must be hay and powdered sugar that comes over the border. And those people shooting it out over there are not related to crime, just a little more realistic form of cowboy action shooting.
Dave

[Charles]

Just a couple of follow up foot notes.

1) IN 1847 the Army build an earthworks fort on the banks of the Rio Grande when Texas was annexed. At that time, there was a dispute between Texas and Mexico as to which river formed the border between the two. Texas claimed the Rio Grande and Mexico said it was the Nueces River.

When the Army built the fort on the north side of the Rio Grande, the Mexicans considered it to be built on Mexican soil and shelled it. Major Jacob Brown the commander was struck in the knee with a piece of grape shot and thus began the War with Mexico in 1847. In his honor it was named Fort Brown.

Over time Ft. Brown expanded down the meanders of the river and was an active post until the end of WWII. My Grandfather was posted there in 1944 and that is how I got to the area.

When closed the buildings and property was turned over to the local college which has expanded to become Univ. of Texas at Brownsville. All of the campus is on the US side, but Ft. Brown was built on the bend of the river and the Feds down want to follow the river, but build in a straight line, hence cutting off about a1/3 of the campus.

2) My son is a petrolium geologist with a major oil company and was working Christmas day on a drilling rig reaching down 20,000 feet for gas in the Texas Panhandle. He spends on week a month on the two rigs in the area and the rest of the month in Houston. It was his rotatation to sit on the rigs on Christmas day, becuase they don't shut them down. When they start they drill 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 60 or 90 days until the well is in. The drillers work 12 hour shifts, sleep and eat at the rig site and stay there until the drilling is done.

I asked my son how much the guys on the rig get payed and he said they received $300.00 per 12 hours shift. My response was that he ought to be working our on the floor of the rig as that was more than he was getting paid as a professional with a graduate degree from Texas A & M.

He said he couldn't because he didn't speak Spanish. All of the drillers were from Mexico and Spanish was the language on the rig. He said the company could not find American workers willing to live and work at the rig for 90 days, even for $300.00 per day.

I asked him if the workers were legal and he just laughted and said, "as far as the company is concern they are, as they have the right papers".

When I was young and limber, being an oil field Roughneck was a very high paying job and they were hard to get. you just about had to know somebody to get one. Many young folks worked on rigs until they had enough money for a year's college, went to college until the money was gone, and went back to the oil patch again until they could get enough for another year at college.

Times have changed in these United States of America. When a man won't work for $300.00 a day because he doesn't get weekends off and doesn't like the working conditions, something is seriously wrong.

I just submit the above as a fact without further comment and everybody can draw whatever conclusions they want from the facts. But those are facts and not media stories.

[k8bor]

"Times have changed in these United States of America. When a man won't work for $300.00 a day because he doesn't get weekends off and doesn't like the working conditions, something is seriously wrong."

Bingo......No direction or discipline.

I started working when I was 14 and have never collected anykind of compensation money (other than the GI bill). I always put my own and my family's food on the table, even though some of the jobs I had to do were just stuff. I guess it was a combination of will and pride, both sadly lacking for the majority nowdays.

I see these soft-minded attitudes in high-school kids all the time. Stand in line with your hand out to Mom and Dad. What really gets me is how "Mom and Dad" simply hand it out. Thank goodness I'm getting old, I have to force myself to keep my mouth shut a lot more than I want to anymore. This forum is one of the rare places I can still vent.

My $.02.

[Leverdude]

That could be fixed easy enough. Theres plenty of healthy men on welfare, if they wont do the work cut off the checks.
I'v got absolutely nothing against Spanish speaking immigrants, as long as they belong here. Its the people that laugh when asked if their workers are legal who are largely to blame as well. Its not a joke.

[k8bor]

Agree 100%. I've always been a huge supporter of work if your able or starve. I think welfare recipients owe something back to the community supporting them.

[BAGTIC]

[quote="Leverdude"][quote="Old Time Hunter"]
Where there is a river put the fence on the Mexican side.""

The border is the middle of the river. Pontoons anyone?

Actually a small piece of Mexico lies north of the Rio Grande.

If the US government can root out and exterminate all sorts of plants and wildlife based on the principle that they are 'alien' to our ecosystem why not simply declare illegals 'invasive' species and declare an open season, no size or bag limits.

Personally I don't have anything against immigrants. My wife is an immigrant as are several of my relatives. I do draw the line at ILLEGAL immigrants.[/img][/list]

[Jason_W]

What I don't like about walls and fences, is that they are just as good (or better) at keeping people in as they are at keeping people out.

Between the border fence and the new laws where you need an RFID tagged passport to drive to Canada, I'm starting to feel a little boxed in and it's unsettling.

You want to stop illegal immigration? Make it a law that you have to pay all illegal immigrants $200/hr no matter what job they are doing. That'll put an end to it.

[Caco]

"He said he couldn't because he didn't speak Spanish. All of the drillers were from Mexico and Spanish was the language on the rig. He said the company could not find American workers willing to live and work at the rig for 90 days, even for $300.00 per day."

Funny how we can find thousands of young americans to serve in the military in far away places in tortoutus conditions for year long tours away from their families risking their lives for a fraction of 300$ a day.
This is my suspicion only, but it sounds like an non mexican doesn't qualify. Mexicans only need apply. Is that compay policy? and or is managment and supervision at that level mexicans taking care of their own. probably not a safe environment for gringo's.
Don't get that far south as brownsville, but have met platform workers in Mo. and Ok. fishing and hunting on their off rotation. Spoke perfect english. and loved their jobs.
Dave

[Charles]

Caco...

My son is in his first year with this company and doesn't make or particpate in any kind of policy making or employment issues. This is a MAJOR oil company, but I don't want to mention the name as both he and his wife works for them. No.. it is not Citgo!!

The two rigs he works on are located in the Northeast corner of the Texas Panhandle.

As for what is going on other rigs, I don't know. I just report to you what he reports to me and he is a truthful man.

[ScottT]

I could not afford to work for $300 a day. But there were times when I would have gladly done so.

[BruceB]

What I don't like about walls and fences, is that they are just as good (or better) at keeping people in as they are at keeping people out.

I've been to Mexico. They don't need a fence to keep me out!

[Caco]

Sounds like your doing well ScottT. Are you a lawyer? Have had a day or two that well exceeded 300, but also some that went the other way in excess of that too
In a lot of examples whether that is enough or not depends on your skill and investment. Some times leverage is involved.
For a 12 hour day thats 25 per hour-not astronomical. but given the schedual thats 9000 per mo. Still beats the pay of carrying a rifle-gear and body armor in 100+deg.
If the personel on that platform are all one nationality, you have to suspect there is some form of discrimination going on with pay of 9000$ a month.
Dave

[Caco]

Charles-did not intend to insinuate anything about your son-sorry. Also evadently I was mistaken about the location of the rigs, but being they are ON US SOIL it is even more amazing that the labor people are one nationality given this is good pay for the skill level. Can't emagine not having some kind of protest if they were all white.
Dave

[Texican]

You guys screamed for a fence. Charles and I told you it was a bad idea.

How do we build the dang thing without taking land that rightfully belongs to someone else?

This is not right, we fought against such a wall in Germany....

I'd like to point out that the German wall ran North to South...

[cvarcher]

If any of us are American in heart and spirit we should all be against any darn fence . I can see the Chiefs turning in their grave . We have the audacity to tell Gorbachev to take down that wall and then all these hypocrites of this country can think of is to put one up! This is wrong. Let me just say that I too loved the old days and I definately dont want more and more people coming to our great land, but we let the Phillipinos in, we let Africans in, we let Russians in ,even Iranians. And now because hard times are on our southern brothers our very neighbors -part of Central America we we say build a wall and shut them out. And lets not forget that they are a proud people and very hard working indeed. Differant in ways sure but sincere god fearing and as everyone says they want to improve their life. What do we do? I say --get the hell out of the rest of the world and work together in the Americas. This is our land and our peoples.Lets fix it and make it better . Show the world that we can work together for all life.Ive just plain had it with all this bickering .Land mines, walls, stealing lands. Pay our cops to patrol this as if we were Eastern Europe. ---NO!!! Please NO!!! I suspect if the Mexican government could get our help and create good jobs these people would stop leaving. Wouldnt it be great for Canadians and Mexicans and US citizens to flow freely each way.But what about the terrorist you say? They too will mix in. Well... if we stop meddling in their affairs ,stop selling anyone any military stuff and stay neutral it will simmer down.We can never eliminate all of it no country can these days .But we can lessen it the intelligent way.

[tman]

scott t, you are blessed that you can't afford to work for $300. a day. the illeagals right now, are stealing the $200 and less a day jobs. it's not the lazy american's who refuse to work for a DECENT WAGE and benifits. it's the employer, who given the option of paying a decent wage, benefit package chose the illegal that will work for practically nothing. why should the employer pay health care and social security, when he can use illegal labor, dump the health and retirement on the us taxpayer. why should the entrenpenuer pay social security taxes ad it to the already overburdened system. it must be the new form of capitalism, must have missed that day in economics 101. good luck, hope that your job is never targeted like so many of ours is now.

[ScottT]

I employ seven people who rely on my skills and knowledge to feed their families. I don't have any illegals working for me because that would be illegal......but each of my employees are good hard working people and they don't make that kind of money.

I think that the key is not building a fence, but in going after employers who give these folks jobs. No jobs, no fence.

[45-70-]

You wanna know whats got me really upset OFF right now! The wife is working on our taxes and just made the mistake of pointing out that I have paid $20,000 in income taxes this year!!!!!!! I am one of those guys who has worked since he was a teenager. Never been on any welfare stuff. Spent 21 years in the military then started over in the work force with a new well paid job and they take that much from me?????? I really wanna just rip someones head off and (&&%$ down their neck...........

Sorry but I needed to get that off my chest.

I am not implying that I shouldnt be taxed be cause I am retired military. I think thats what my writing sounds like. I was just trying to say I didnt realize so much of my paycheck was going to the govt.

[ScottT]

Try close to $40k witheld from my paychecks.

When I was a police officer, I made $27k per year. As a Deputy Sheriff, I made a little over $16k a year. Now I get taxed twice as much as I made then. You know when then was? 1992-1994

Its a good thing they don't ask you to send a check at the end of the year.

[45-70-]

Scott, if you figure out any good tax shelters, please let me know. I am meeting with a CPA in a few days. My employer is overseas and most of my business is conducted with overseas companies. I am going to look for any offshore loop holes I can find.

[tman]

didn't say you were scott. i congradulate you for providing american taxpaying citizen's at shot at the american dream. thank you. my rant is aimed at the employer who uses illeagials for slave labor. them dumds them and their families on the taxpayer, because that employer, not you, choses to do so, and calls it capitalism at work. i applogize if i offend anyone with my reply to these posts. its not my intent att all. it's my reply in general, to what's put out there for debate. illegal allien workers drive the wages of the tax paying legal workers down. those employers, not you scott, use them as a resource, do not pay into social security, or healthcare system, for them or their family, and dump it into the system which we the taxpayers are burdend with. our taxes go up, while the employer makes out. please point out where i wrong.

[Leverdude]

This is nothing like the Berlin wall. That divided a country.

Anyway, I'm not sure a wall or fence is needed if we just dont let them come in. You can punish the employers but many of these guys get fake SS cards & ID's so its not so easy to tell who's legit.
I'm really amazed its so hard to stop men from waltzing in here. I realize we cant catch every single one but we sure oughtta be able to stem the tide a bit.

The few I'v spoken to about it say its laughably easy. They come & go as they please. Its harder for me than them.

And I wish I could get $300 a day every day for manual labor.

[Swampman]

"This is nothing like the Berlin wall."

It's exactly like the Berlin Wall. The disadvantaged will continue crossing it no matter what we do.

[El Mac]

"This is nothing like the Berlin wall."

It's exactly like the Berlin Wall. The disadvantaged will continue crossing it no matter what we do.

Gotta call BS on that. IF the wall is backed up with teeth, it'll cut em out darned near completely. Overnight.

[Swampman]

Did you ever see the "teeth" on the Berlin Wall? How about the "teeth" on the border between North & South Korea? Walls won't keep out people who are hungry for food and freedom.

Shutting off welfare/SS disability checks, and making our own citizens get a job would stop the flow.

[Old Time Hunter]

Even though I do not necessarily agree with a "wall", since firepower and the mortal threat should suffice, it would be nothing like the "Berlin" wall. We would be separating two soveriegn countries, not seperating one country as the Berlin wall did.

Personally I believe there is a difference. Besides, we do not advocate the elimination of "legal" migration.

[Swampman]

Border fence could cost $49 billion

The paper reports the finding that a U.S.-Mexico border fence "could be five to 25 times greater than congressional leaders forecast last year, or as much as $49 billion over the expected 25-year life span of the fence, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service. "

The CRS is a nonpartisan research group run by the Library of Congress that provides data and analysis to Congress. Its study on the fence does not include the cost of buying (stealing)private land or paying for contractor labor, the Chronicle says. Spokesmen for two major House supporters of the border fence, Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., and Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., say the study does not change the lawmakers' views on the project.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

What do we need to do in order to take "OUR" country back from Washington?

That's easy. Term limits and loser pay tort reform. On the other end, to receive welfare you gotta do the the whiz quiz.

[Leverdude]

Swampman wrote;

Shutting off welfare/SS disability checks, and making our own citizens get a job would stop the flow

Heck, we ought to do that anyway.
I'm not set on a fence being needed, but its still not the Berlin wall. That was wrong, this, while it might be ineffective is not wrong, morally I mean.
I can fence in my yard, the neighbors kid might still hop the fence & tramp thru my garden but I'm not wrong for trying.
Now cutting HIS yard in half to keep him where I want would be different.

Anyway, the issue is many faceted but SOMETHING needs to get done. I think if we just seriously tried it could be cut way back. You'll never stop all of them but you can stop most.

[ScottT]

That would do it.

[FWiedner]

Did you ever see the "teeth" on the Berlin Wall? How about the "teeth" on the border between North & South Korea? Walls won't keep out people who are hungry for food and freedom.

Shutting off welfare/SS disability checks, and making our own citizens get a job would stop the flow.

We don't need a wall. Or a fence. We need dedicated enforcement.

As to the welfare/SS disability checks issue, and making our own citizens get a job, I think that this should apply equally to government and civil service retirees, congressional pensions and all other categories of entitlement that allow people who don't work to draw funds from the public treasury, i.e., my wallet.

I think that it is wrong to make people work against their will, but if folks won't work and be productive, let them starve. Allow the wisdom of nature to exercise it's sound and final judgement.