Why did America choose the Peacemaker and the 1873.......

[L_Kilkenny]

as the MYTHICAL guns that won the west? Am i wrong in thinkin that shotguns, cap'n'ball revolvers, and a myriad of other rifles and handguns played much larger roles in the taming of the west than either of the 2 we generally think of? Was it movies that gave us our hero equivalent of guns?

All this stems from a talk Dad and I were having the other day. The talk revolved around books, movies, the "High Noon" complex (a town full of cowards), no one having a gun capable of fighting, stand up street gunfights, everyone one on the wagon train having a repeating rifle, etc etc. All the myths we generally see in books and movies.

What are the true guns that one the west?

LK

[Don McDowell]

Advertising and hollyweird hype.

[Griff]

IT was two models of 1873 that "won" the west. They were the Colt SAA and Springfield as issued to the Army. It was the Arm that subdued the "wild" tribes.

The "west" was opened with the Brown Bess as carried by Lewis & Clark... kept open by the flintlock pistols & rifles of the Mountain men, settled by the single shotgun;toiled, fought & killed over with every manner of firearm known at the time.

But, it was ythe Springfield 1873 and Colt 1873 that WON it. Winchester just had better advertising.

[Don McDowell]

I'm betting there were more 73 Smith and Wessons than there were Colts on the front lines

[Doc Hudson]

For one thing, there were more Colts and Winchesters sold that any other brand. There were over 350,000 peacemakers made between 1876 and 1941. only Smith & Wesson even approached those numbers.( Actually, I think S&W made more of their No. 3 Model than Colt did Peacemakers, but most of them were exported to fill contracts with Russia and other countries. And during the frontier period, S&W largely ignored both the civilian market and the US Military market because of the vast orders made by Russia and other nations. I've read that the US Army had to practically twist their rms to get 5.000 Schofield Models made.

Part was advertising hype. Winchester advertised the Model 1873 as "The Gun that Won the West<" starting at an early period.

Part of it was the Western novelists. How often have you read a Western novel and the hero packed anything other than a Colt and a Winchester? Have you ever read one in which the hero used a hopkins Allen Army Model? Or even a Merwin Hulbert? nope, Colts were the most common hence about the only one ever mentioned.

And of course part of it was Hollywood. Lack of attention to detail or lack of firearms knowledge led the movie makers to arm all Western actors with Colt Peacemakers and Winchester m01873's or Model 1892's whether the movie was set in the 1840's or 1930's simply because the Colts and Winchesters were easier to acquire.

As for shotguns,percussion revolvers, and percussion rifles, sure they saw wide use. In the mid-1870's Wyatt Earp used a single-barreled 12 gauge shotgun for his buffalo hunting! He never shot more than he and his helper could skin in the remainder of the day, and he helped with the skinning, a thing that other hunters scorned as beneath their dignity. Earp would shoot and skin all day and reload his shotgun shells at night, Earp didn't rack up the impressive numbers that other buffalo hunters did, but with his smaller crew he made good money and didn't have hides go to waste due to spoiling before the skinners could get to them.

Wild Bill Hickok continued to use his cap-and-ball M-1862 Navy Colts until his death well after the introduction of the Peacemaker.

Though emigration by wagon train continued all the way until the end of the Frontier and longer, the bulk of the immigrants crossed the plains before Oliver Winchester moved from making shirts to rifles, so most wagon trains were armed with muzzle-loaders, which turned out to be repeating rifles in the movies.

So the legend is based in some fact, and has been greatly inflated by novelists and movie makers. i guess you might say it is an instance of life imitating art.

Griff,

lewis and Clark didn't use Brown Bess Muskets, those were .75 caliber British muskets. Lewis and Clark used .69 caliber Harper Ferry Muskets, and earlier copies of the Charleville Musket, also .69 caliber. In fact .69 caliber was the US Army standard caliber until the adoption of the first rifles in 1842, and some of the .69 caliber muskets were rifled to use with Minie Balls and saw service during the War Between the States.

[bdhold]

Wyatt Earp used a Schoefield.

[Griff]

Doc, you're right... I was drawing a blank for the actual model, and just typed in Brown Bess. My bad. Thanks for correcting me.

[KSRtrd]

Recalling when I read the diary of the Lewis N Clark trip they armmed up with a early version of the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle,
was a .50 I think and also a early Air Rifle. Sure they had the muskets, pistols and the like for close quarters.

[L_Kilkenny]

IT was two models of 1873 that "won" the west. They were the Colt SAA and Springfield as issued to the Army. It was the Arm that subdued the "wild" tribes.

Actually, the US Military didn't subdue the tribes. Disease and the killing off game, namely the buffalo, did the deed. US Military did mop up duty and to tell the truth they could of been armed with sling shots and been almost as effective. OK, OK, I know that was a bit of an exaggeration but you get my drift. How many Natives did the US Military kill after the Civil War? Not very many in comparison. By that point the Comanche were at about 1/4 strength and done for completely in 1874. Tribes like the Blackfeet and Crow etc were all but gone before the Civil War due to disease. Of the fights post Civil War the US army's choice of guns was more of a didadvantage than an advantage. Attrition won that fight too.

So in my opinion if you want to pick a gun that defeated the Native Americans you have to pick from he ones that killed the most game.

LK

[Gun Smith]

Actually the "Gun That Won The West" was probably a simple generic double barrel shotgun. EVERYONE had one down on the farm or ranch.

[KirkD]

I have a book by Charles W. Pate that has the actual sales figures for the S&W top breaks vs. the Colts. The S&W top breaks, such as the American, the Schofield, and the Russian outsold the Colts by a significant margin and Colt did not catch up until sometime in the early 1890's. In the 'Old' West (1870's) the S&W top breaks in 44 American, 45 Schofield and 44 Russian were much more common among the civilians than the Colt 1873 SAA. In fact, prior to the Colt SAA, the US Calvary was using the S&W 1st Model American. Then there was a period in the mid-1870's when the Cavalry used both the S&W Schofield and the Colt SAA, before they went completely to the Colt. Starting in the mid-1870's and throughout the 1880's, the cartridge of choice among the civilians in the Old West was the 44 Russian. Of course, there were a lot of other types used in the Old West as well, including the Colt open tops, the Merwin and Hulberts, the Remington's, the Springfield 'needle guns' and carbines, the Spencers, the Sharps, the Henry's, the Winchester '66s, etc. One thing I like about some of the modern Westerns coming out now is that they are using a more authentic mix of old west guns. The 3:10 to Shilho movie (the newer one) is an example that has an interesting mix of authentic old west guns, even if it falls short in quality compared to the older movie.

When it comes to Colt SAA vs S&W top breaks, I've owned originals in both and have disassembled and re-assembled them, including the S&W 2nd Model American in 44 Russian and the S&W Schofield. I've also shot them both a lot. At the end of the day, I have to give the nod to the Colt. The S&W was a beautiful and extremely well-made sixgun, but the Colt has fewer moving parts and is a stronger action. As a result, it is my opinion that in the wild, the Colt will be more dependable, as long as you remember to keep those screws tight (or you use the modern Loc Tite on them). I've sold all three of my antique S&W's and now own an original first generation Colt chambered in 45 Schofield. It was once a US Cavalry artillery piece. Now it will continue to do duty in the remote Canadian wilderness. Durability and strength of action aside, I would have to say that the sixgun that epitomizes the Old West for me (early 1870's) is the S&W 2nd Model American with the standard 8" barrel.

[adirondakjack]

Because showing a "bad hombre" with a .32 DA S&W doesn't look near as menacing as a big ole horse pistol, especially if it's in his pocket instead of his belt.

[KirkD]

Here's a photo of two genuine Old West sixguns. The top one is an original S&W 2nd Model American chambered in 44 Russian. The factory letter indicates it was shipped in 1873. The lower one is my original First Generation Colt SAA Artillery restored and re-chambered to 45 Schofield. I still have the original 45 Colt cylinder. The Colt SAA artilleries were assembled from original 8" Colts that were sent back to Colt to be disassembled and re-built as 5 & 1/2" SAA's. No attention was paid to re-assembling with all matching serial numbers, so most Colt SAA artilleries are a mix of serial numbers. The earliest serial numbers on my Colt date to 1874. That old S&W 44 Russian would have commanded a fair amount of respect no matter who was filling their hand with it. I sold the S&W for a handsome price and I regret it very much, but my budget simply dictated that it was either the S&W or the Colt; I couldn't keep both.

[B-92 Steven]

While there were many excellent guns in the old west (pre civil war), it was the self contain metallic cartridge that made firearms a huge sucess. Winchester with the .44 wcf and Colt SAA with the .45 colt. This may account for there popularity in books and movies.

[bdhold]

thanks for the photo Kirk, beautiful pistols. That Schofield is near to my heart. I am a Smith fan.

[jlchucker]

Most movies are hype. Westerns especially, ever since the moving picture was invented.

[tman]

the .44 henry flat rimfire in the henry , the winchester 1866 and the colt 1860 revolver conversions were around just pryor to the civil war. along with the 56-56 spencer, these rimfire cartridges were used by the union army. that gives them a longer exposier period than the 1873 colts and winchesters, during which the west was still wild, and western expansion period went into full swing. a good man on a horse armed with a 16 shot spencer could do a lot of damange against indians armed with bows, spears, and muzzle loaders.

[L_Kilkenny]

Good info on the SW vs. Colt Kirk. I always thought that the SW's wouldn't been any where close in production numbers.

Question for everyone: I know that many of the revolvers carried and used up until close to the turn of the century were cap'n'ball and/or conversions left over from the Civil War Era. Not all but a big chunk of em. But what happened to all the rifles from the war? Did most end up in arsenals or destroyed? Or did they find there way to the frontier also? I never here about those big ol' lead spitting things being used after the war. You'll here of the new cartridge rifles of all action types making big inroads on the frontier and I know that traditional non-military front stuffers continued to see use but no Civil War milsurp rifles so to speak.

Just Curious,
LK

[bdhold]

any military surplus they had were converted to trap-doors and reissued to the army.
but I believe most of the soldiers took their arms home with them.

[TWHBC]

As a slightly different aspect of the original question, how were the weapons used to actually win the west carried?

Bet it wasn't (always as you see ) a steel lined low hung, quick draw type holster as seen in the TV and movie westerns.
And the saddles and other horse rigging were not as shown in many of the cowboy shows.
Actually the shows and movies have been getting better about the gear resembling actual accessories used.

[J Miller]

How were the guns carried is a good question. I think the movie: "The Quick and The Dead" with Sam Elliott and Kate Capshaw depicted a pretty good idea of this. Various types of holsters from cap and ball type holsters to a variety of loop type holsters along with both cartridge and cap and ball revolvers.

This is a true story as told to me an old gentleman who's name was Van Houten (?) as best as I can remember.
He was a young man in the early part of the 1900s and lived and worked on a ranch. I don't remember where as this story was told to me some 40 years ago. He carried a Colt cap and ball revolver rather than a cartridge revolver because of cost. Caps and lead were cheep. They bought blasting black powder in bulk kegs and used that as powder for the pistols and rifles. Far less expensive and much more convenient than trying to purchase cartridges.
At the end of each days work he'd ride into the ranch house area and empty his revolver into the trunk of a big tree. Then clean the pistol and the next day load it up fresh.

What Van told me indicates to me that many C&B pistols saw serious use during the late 1800s well into the 1900s. Probably more so than we we realize.

People kept and used what worked and what they could afford. Colt SAAs, the big S&Ws, Winchester, Marlin and other repeating rifles were expensive. Ammunition was too. Guns then were working tools so there wasn't the sentimentality for them we have now. Use 'em, break 'em, fix 'em, use 'em and repeat until they are beyond fixing.

I think the guns that won the west was what ever was in the hands of those who needed them at the time they were needed.

Joe

[L_Kilkenny]

Interesting story Joe, makes sense. Too bad today that same cost scenario doesn't apply. A few years ago i was looking to buy a .357 revolver but I also hadn't crossed a 1858 Remington off the list. I figured the 1858 was gonna be cheaper to feed, I was wrong. After doing the math for caps, balls and powder along with the other odds and ends that go along with shooting and maintaining a cap'n'ball it was gonna be more expensive to feed the Remington. I don't remember the numbers and all the prices for the the cap'n'ball supplies were for off the shelf stuff at Sportsmans Warehouse but still I was surprised not find a cost savings. Remember, at that point and still today, I wasn't thinkin about casting.

TWHBC, do a search and look up all the pictures that rangerider7 has posted here. The man has more cool pics that show what they wore and how they lived then any collection I have seen on the net. I don't know where he gets em but he gets em. Functional not fancy was the name of the game. You're right, haven't seen a picture of a tied down rig yet..... You need to wok on that for me rangerider.

LK

[Batman1939]

[quote="J Miller"]

What Van told me indicates to me that many C&B pistols saw serious use during the late 1800s well into the 1900s. Probably more so than we we realize.

I believe you're correct Joe. I know an elderly woman whose family has lived in a small Montana town for over 100 years. Her dad was sheriff there during the 1930's and 40's and used a Colt cap and ball revolver. Said he drew it during work a couple of times, but never had to shoot it on the job. I didn't get to see the gun as it had been passed to her brother.

[piller]

To tman: I wasn't aware that the Spencer held 16 shots. Are you sure? I was under the impression that it held something like 7 or 9 shots, and they were in the buttstock.

[336A]

KirkD just out of curiosity what revolver is the more accurate the S&W or the Colt?

[tman]

To tman: I wasn't aware that the Spencer held 16 shots. Are you sure? I was under the impression that it held something like 7 or 9 shots, and they were in the buttstock.

sorry, should have said henry

[KirkD]

KirkD just out of curiosity what revolver is the more accurate the S&W or the Colt?

The S&W, both off hand and off a sandbag.