Maybe OT - Smallest rifle, least recoil for little kid

[86er]

I am kicking around ideas for a rifle that my oldest boy can use for deer/antelope sized critters. First of all, he can shoot! He is hitting a soda can on a stick with both peep sights and open sights consistently (22 out of 24 shots on Sunday) at 15 yards. He can hit a 6.5" paper plate every time at 20 yds. This is with a Cricket .22 or his Red Ryder. He really wants to shoot something bigger and I was thinking maybe for his birthday in October. He's maybe 50 pounds and nearly 40" tall. The problems - 1) can't hold rifle up by himself if it is over 4.5 pounds or so, 2) creeps his eye up close on a scoped rifle, 3) any rearward gun movement with a gun that has a hammer on it and the hammer hits him in the face and cuts him, 4) can't shoudler the rifle properly due to size so he puts the buttstock under his armpit. Some of these problems are inter-related of course. Here's my initial thoughts: .22 Magnum like a Ruger 96/22M with open sights and using 50 gr solids. It will break a deers shoulder out to 20 yds and most times will exit. I've used one around the ranch here and there. It would not be legal on free-range native game here but we could use it inside a high fence situation or on free-range exotic game. Most likely the animal will run and there may be a sparse blood trail. Another option is my 221 Fireball. The rifle is too heavy for him to hold himself but maybe he can rest it on the window sill of the blind and still use it. I have to shoot it with one hand or something to get a real sense of how much the rifle moves when fired. Ricky suggested a 22 Hornet might kick less or at least no more. I don't have a rifle in that caliber but could get one if that was the way to go. Ideally I'd like to cut the rifle stock to fit him at least soon if not right now. I'd cut the barrel too if it helped balance it out so he could hold it. I thought about a hammerless break open .410 cut to 18 1/2 inches with a cut stock and a 22 Hornet insert and sights put on it. Decisions - Decisions. What are your ideas/thoughts on a way to make this work for now? I really want to make his hunt come true.

[Blaine]

I'm doubtful...a fella should be able to hold the firearm up that he hunts with. Resting the rifle on a sill in the blind is a good plan, so why not use enough gun? A .243 would be ok.....Could he make a head shot with the .22Mag? That's doable, fer sure.

[TedH]

What about on of those youth model Handi Rifles in .223? Recoil is hardly worth mentioning, and you'd have a lot more umph than a 22 mag or Hornet. He'll still need some assistance with about anything you choose that's larger than a Cricket.

[FWiedner]

I think a youth model Handi is a great idea.

Probly even get an inexpensive stock replacement to change out when the boy sprouts a bit.

Those high powered .22 cals can be LOUD, though.

[Doc Hudson]

The problem with using a .22 centerfire for a deer gun is that it takes a real rifleman for it to be effective and humane. I won't even discuss the .22 WMR, if you want to use an illegal weapon that is your choice. In any event, i believe it would be better for him to use a more suitable deer cartridge than for him to have lots of wounded animals that will require lots of trailing, or be lost.

If he wer my kid I'd probably get him either a .243 or .250 Savage. I'd cut the stock in 1" increments until it is short enough to fit. I'd save the cut-off pieces and as he grew, I'd drill the cut pieces and screw them back onto the stock. When he reaches his full size and all the stock pieces are used, I'd restock it and save the cut stock for my grandkids.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but a stock that fits might cure his stock crawling and make something like a T/C Encore or Contender a viable choice.

Or you can get a youth model bolt-action from Winchester, REmington or Savage and treat it to the stock alteration I mentioned earlier. If he wer my kid, I'd lock the magazine so he'd use it as a single-shot, at least for the first two or three years, until he gets some experience under his belt.

Have fun investigating, and searching.

[Pete44ru]

[He can hit a 6.5" paper plate with a Cricket .22 or his Red Ryder. He really wants to shoot something bigger]

[He's maybe 50 pounds and nearly 40" tall.]

[1) can't hold rifle up by himself if it is over 4.5 pounds or so]
[2) creeps his eye up close on a scoped rifle]
[3) any rearward gun movement with a hammer gun, the hammer hits him in the face and cuts him]
[4) can't shoudler the rifle properly due to size so he puts the buttstock under his armpit.]

No disrespect - but he's not ready yet, no mater HOW much he (or you) thinks he "wants" it.

When I was a knee-high, my Pa wouldn't let me have whatever I wanted, either - jes' sayin'............

"No wine, before it's time".

.

[Barcelona Rick]

I ran this same topic up the pole about my grandson.....bought a like new Handi youth in .243 and a fitted 20 gauge barrel..it has the silver/stainless receiver and black syn stock. Have an older Redfield Widefield scope 4X to put on it. We will start shooting it pretty soon. He is 7 years old and weighs about 55 pounds. Good luck on the search....

rick

[piller]

Joe, is there any way to take a 7mm-08 and use some powder and maybe a filler which would lower the power enough to be something he could handle? The 7mm-08 is something that seems to be worth looking into from what I have read here on Leverguns. I like the idea of cutting the stock in 1 inch sections. Brandon is kind of young in years, but if you think he is ready, then I hope you find a way to make it work.

[Otto]

If one looks around, one can find lots of reduced loads for .243 Winchester; I speculate that there are a few for 7mm-08 as well.

[Griff]

Joe,

I got a sweet little Rossi in .38/.357 that my son no longer uses. I'll be home a coupla weeks... Why don't you borrow it and see how he does. LOTS of ammo choice that I'm SURE, the right coach could find appropriate. My kid was using one like it in CAS competition @ 9.

[Hobie]

I thought about this a while Joe. I finally formulated an opinion. This isn't to say that you can't or shouldn't be able to make a choice for your family though...

I think that a person who can't handle the equipment safely shouldn't be doing whatever. Hunting, sailing, driving, using power tools, even having a pocket knife. Some people can do what they choose to do by adapting tools to their needs be it size, lack of a digit or limb, but they need to think it out. In your case the boy can't handle a tool big enough to do the job. That's a shame but I've been there, too. If he can't understand this then I'd think that he wasn't mentally ready. I would, of course, involve him in every responsible and safe way possible.

Growing up is sometimes difficult. Parents sometimes want to hurry it along as do the kids. Kids can't be expected to know the ramifications of those decisions. Parents MUST know and act appropriately. A parent isn't a child's friend but is a mentor, protector, and TEACHER. Sometimes, we have to love them enough to say "no".

I don't know this boy. I think I know you a bit. I have confidence that you'll make the right decision for your son.

[Ysabel Kid]

Another "vote" for a Handi rifle in .223. Only problem is, IIRC, it does have an external hammer.

[Dave]

That is a tough one. You can get an NEF Handi Superlight Compact in 223 or 243. They are about the shortest/lightest gun you can get. I am not sure if you an cut the stock gracefully though as they are hollow. It could probably be done. I don't see how he could get his face too close to the hammer since the scope extends well over it. I have heard some little people complain about the kick of the 243 before but they could handle it OK.

It may not be legal in your area but a youth 20 gauge with 3 buckshot will kill a deer no problem. If his max range is 25 yards or so he can nail them. Kids I know say the single shot 20 gauges are bad kickers to them though so that may be a consideration. A couple weeks ago a 13 year old passed on shooting my Handi in 30-30 because of his experience with a Handi 20 gauge citing bad recoil.

If he will double lung or neck shoot a deer with a 223 deer bullet that will kill them and is probably the least kicking gun he could get. He will just have to be picky on his shots as he should be no matter what gun he has really.

In my world you had to be at least 10 and a successful solo squirrel hunter before you could go deer hunting.

[86er]

Thanks for the replies thus far! Let me add some info. First of all we are not going to do something illegal or unsafe. He can handle a rifle very safely if it is the appropriate size and weight. Second, recoil could be a problem with a scope or an external hammer but for obvious reasons not both at the same time. Next, it doesn't have to be a deer that we're talking about. I have a great spot right near a waterhole where a javelina, blackbuck doe (50 pounds) or something like a raccoon or grey fox might show up. The young man has shot muntjac and WTD with an "adult" rifle with the gun rested on the window sill of a blind and someone helping hold it. He just looked through the scope and held the pistol grip to work the trigger. He's also shot 2 turkeys and even a dove in the air with a .410. He shot several rabbits by himself. My idea was for him to shoot something "bigger" like he puts it, but what critter doesn't matter than much. I'd like it to be something we'd eat or use the skin and bones to make something. The idea is for him to hold the rifle, aim in and make the shot without assistance except a little whispered coaching from me right next to him. This wouldn't be until the fall but if we might do it I want to start practicing with him. Last, not doing it this year and just saying NO is a distinct option too.

[awp101]

Based on your two posts, I'd track down one of the synthetic Ultra-Light Handi's in .22H for a couple of reasons. They're light, the barrel can be upgraded to something even "bigger" when the time is right, the recoil is so minimal that the exposed hammer and glass should pose very little/no issue if he climbs the stock and the Hornet would do fine for the smaller game you're considering. Might even consider punching it out to the K-Hornet...

[Booger Bill]

How old is he?

[deerwhacker444]

I'm kinda with Hobie on this one. I don't know all the particulars, but I don't like the idea of trying to bring down a small deer hoping that a .22 Mag will break the shoulders. If it does break the shoulders, it will likely scoot around with it's back legs probably making a hellacious racket which might rattle a youngster, especially if you have to perform a Coup de grace. I hate it when that happens, it stays with me a few days even as an adult. If he has to wait a year, it will make it that much more special when it does happen although it will probably be a long year.

Just my .02 worth if you do decide to let him hunt. Can you make or cut down one of those 3-letted tri-pods I see on all the Africa shows and let him practice on it all summer? Let him get proficient and setting up his own rest and positioning the rifle as he needs with as little help as he needs.? Might find out he doesn't need as much help as you think.

Also, on caliber selection, have you thought about making any reduced loads in your current rifles offerings? Get ahold of a guy named Seafire over on the Accurate Reloading Forums and talk to him about his reduced loads using BlueDot. He's got a recipe using BlueDot for about everything under the sun and I'm finding that they're usually very accurate and are truly reduce loads.

[Hobie]

I want to reiterate that I KNOW you'll do the right thing. If he has already been successful...

Frankly, I'm partial to a couple of cartridges for young people, one of those is the the .357 Magnum. However, I have a javelina skull from an animal taken by JimT's daughter, with a .22 WRFM... I know they make a Crickett .22 WRFM.

[dr walker]

TC contender carbine, There are some light weight tapered barrels out there that get the weight down. A friend of mine set up one in 204 ruger with a light barrel and shortened stock. It is light and handy, probably closer to 5 and half pounds. It can easily be set up with open or peep sights. Caliber choice is extensive.

[buckeyeshooter]

You could get a 30-30 in a handirifle or lever action, alter it to fit. Then get out the old lyman loading manual and load some cast 150 grain leads at about 1300-1400 fps.

[El Chivo]

I recall a story about a handicapped man taking a deer with a .410 shotgun slug. If he'she likes the 410 he could use that.

I just fired my Youth Handi-Rifle in .243 for the first time yesterday. It was very accurate but had a sharp kick and loud muzzle blast with factory ammo. It may be true that .243 has low recoil, but that's with a 7 lb bolt gun, right? With the 5 lb youth it jumps a fair amount. I got it not because I'm small, but because I wanted the smallest, lightest rifle I could find for packing. But today I was flinching a little.

One little detail about the Handi-rifle, when it came I thought there was a mistake and I had one with a 16-inch barrel - it looked that short. I measured it and found that it is 20 inches all right, it seems short because there is no receiver. So the loud muzzle blast will be that much closer to him if you go with the Handi.

When I shoot my 1894c with reduced loads, I feel much less recoil than that. I'm with Hobie on trying a .357 with 38 specials in there.

[El Chivo]

I recall a story about a handicapped man taking a deer with a .410 shotgun slug. If he'she likes the 410 he could use that.

I just fired my Youth Handi-Rifle in .243 for the first time yesterday. It was very accurate but had a sharp kick and loud muzzle blast with factory ammo. It may be true that .243 has low recoil, but that's with a 7 lb bolt gun, right? With the 5 lb youth it jumps a fair amount. I got it not because I'm small, but because I wanted the smallest, lightest rifle I could find for packing. But today I was flinching a little.

One little detail about the Handi-rifle, when it came I thought there was a mistake and I had one with a 16-inch barrel - it looked that short. I measured it and found that it is 20 inches all right, it seems short because there is no receiver. So the loud muzzle blast will be that much closer to him if you go with the Handi.

When I shoot my 1894c with reduced loads, I feel much less recoil than that. I'm with Hobie on trying a .357 with 38 specials in there.

[barbarossa]

I think I would get him one of the TC single shot rifles.Being single shot it is ideal for a beginner,weight shouldn t be a problem and being a switch barrel gun you have lots of cals
to choose from.Also cutting the stock to fit him wouldn t be a problem as you can easily pick up a used butt stock and keep the original for when he out grows it.

[Mokwaw]

Why not add some weight to his cricket or red ryder and have him practice sighting and holding with the "heavier" gun ? Start building his strength, then go to the "bigger" gun in a youth version when he can handle it. I would think .243 as best if shooting deer, .223 for smaller game, if recoil is a problem get him a "PAST" recoil shield. I've done this with my youngest grandson (12 yrs old, very small build) learning to shoot trap. Using an H&R youth 20 ga. first time out 3 shots was all he wanted. I got him the "PAST" pad and the second time out he went a full 25 rounds with no complaints.

[Goat]

Having read your post the last few years I am confident that you will make the right decision concerning the young man's readiness to hunt. I do not think that any of the animals you are considering are armour plated or otherwise bullet-proof. In the Barnes reloading manual #3 Dr. Ed Ashby writes that the 22 Hornet with 45gr X bullets is a cartridge that he has used to introduce "many young shooters to hunting African plains game..." I have a shooting buddy that has loaded the X bullet for several kids in the 22 Hornet and they are very sucessful in taking WT deer. I am thinking about either getting a hornet or 223 single shot for my kids to start with in a few years. They a legal here and I know they work. They are NOT the best tool but they work. The same shooting buddy also down loads the 7mm-08 with 120gr X bullets to around 2100fps and claims that its killing deer like a bolt of lightening. I also think that the good ole 32/20 would do well under the conditions you are talking about if you could find one to fit him.
Goat

[BigSky56]

86er, I would get a ruger 96/22 mag you could chop the stock to fit and with ironsights or glass he will well outfitted. Ive used the mag to take all the canine family, lions, bears and deer doing ADC and depredation shooting. A properly hit large animal goes down quick when hit by a 22 mag. danny

[m.wun]

If the scope is a problem maybe a scout mount or a red dot..

[Cliff]

Two or three calibers not mentioned so far but in proper fitted rifle should work well. The 30 M1 Carbine cartridge, the Russian 7.62X39 and the Russian 5.5X39. These are light recoil rounds. Hunting bullets are availabe. As for the guns, probably a Handi Rifle with youth configuration. Just a thought. FWIW good luck

[gundownunder]

You have to use enough gun and enough load for the job.
If he cannot safely and properly control and use a firearm I think he is too young to do much more than the occasional plinking session off the bench at inanimate targets
Maybe you could try a youth H&R or youth Henry in 357 but the loads should be heavy enough to give a clean kill. If this is not suitable then maybe the boy is trying to run before he can crawl , and next year might be a better year for his first big game hunt.

[jlchucker]

I agree with Hobie. Around here they've got a hunter safety course (mandatory) conducted each year for new, youthful hunters. Most responsible adults have a good idea when their child is big enough to attend and go out on their first hunt. When we were kids, there was no hunter safety courses, but nearly every dad filled that role. My thought is that you can teach a youngster to shoot (with or without assistance), and you can teach him/her to hunt. But part of that hunt is a clean, humane kill. Just shooting an animal because someone wants to kill something isn't hunting. I also agree with the comments made by Deerwhacker44. What he described happens too often even if it happens only once. Every hunter needs to respect the animal that they are hunting enough to make a clean, one-shot kill if at all possible, right from their very first hunt. Not that long ago, not every house had a plethora of different guns, nor did parents have the money to run out and buy a new one because their kids were small. Not every house even had a 22. Lots of kids started by using Dad's old 30-30 or something similar, and had to hunt with that or something like it, when Dad thought they were big enough to handle the gun that was available. Not a bad thing, really, even though there have been lots of suggestions here for various different guns and calibers. Gundownunder actually sums this sentiment up in his comments as well, and I fully concur.

[rjohns94]

What Hobie said twice.

good luck with your choice.

[shooter]

Don't know how old your boy is, but my cousins have both been shooting a Ruger M77 compact youth model rifle since they were 5 or 6 yrs. old. They could both handle the rifle pretty much by themselves at that time. They still use it. I love that gun, but then again I like light, compact rifles. Theirs is in .308, and we have always loaded it down to .243 velocities. 100 gr. bullet going 2500-2600 fps if I'm not mistaken. They have never had any problems with the recoil. Like your son, both of
them started out with Cricket .22's, and when they got proficient with them, they upgraded to bigger game and bigger guns.

Good luck with finding a rifle. I am not too old to remember the frustrations of knowing how to shoot, but not being able to find a gun that would fit. I've been shooting since I was 3 or 4 yrs. old, but I was always a big kid. At 4 I was probably as big as most 6 yr olds. I know that makes a difference trying to find a good fit.

[Batman1939]

I have to agree with several others who have suggested that maybe he's a little young for the task. Sometimes parents are too eager to have their kids experiences all the "great things" in life. It doesn't hurt to wait until they're really ready. I've seen little kids (3 yrs old) put onto minibikes and go break their leg; of course older kids and adults can do that too.

Having to wait a while before getting to do something can be a healthy character-former !!

[tman]

src in .357. short & lite enough. you can start the kid on .38 waddcutters and SLOWLY work his way up to the magnum. practice, practice, and more practice. if he ain't ready this year, there is always next year.

[Bosco]

86er,
Have you considered a M1 carbine? Small, light enought mabe, peep sight he is used to. Semi auto helps reduce recoil. Pleanty enough oompf for what you are trying to have him acomplish. Not too much "reach" so there is no temptaion to have him try for a shot he is not ready for yet.
Enjoy your time with your boy!

[RustyJr]

I agree with el chivo in regards to the 410. If he can handle it well enough to take birds with it id say he can handle it in the deer woods. Set him up with a good slug, keep it to 25 yrds and tell him to punch it through the lungs. Im sure he would be fine.

RustyJr

[O.S.O.K.]

OK, I've read throught the thread and thought about this. For myself, I waited until my boys were older and could handle their own full-sized rifles to hunt deer.

But I understand your situation and there's nothing wrong with stepping them up younger like you've done.

I just can't think of anything short of one of those ultra-ultra light kirafu rifles that weight that little. And you know how much they cost... you could order it with the shorter buttstock and just add-on length as he grows.

Too rich for me though! If this were me, I would get a handi rifle in 357 Mag and cut the buttstock down for him right now. It will be heavier, but you can work with him to shoot off of sticks and this he can do all by himself. He's already proven that he can shoot with a rest. Recoil is very low, so a low-power/long eye releif scope should pose no threat. Better yet, just put a red dot on it for him so that he won't be tempted to crawl up on it - plus they are very light and inexpensive to boot. I really like the Bushnell Trophy red dot that I have on an AR - $80 - has 3 MOA dot in a circle and three other reticules to choose from. Keeps him shooting with both eyes open too - which I like.

Order a replacement buttstock as he grows and he'll have a nice little single shot that he can use his whole life - and with his kids someday

ETA - 30-30 with cast boolits at 1500 fps would be dandy too - just an afterthought...

[olyinaz]

My boy found the M1 Carbine the first adult rifle he could comfortably handle. They're really light as I'm sure you know and they have a short reach with good peep sights to boot.

Lastly, I'll ask if you've seen the Ruger M77/44? It's a .44 mag bolt gun that weighs 5.25lbs with an 18.5" barrel and adult sized stock. Cut it to 16", trim the stock and you'll likely have it below 5 pounds and it'll fit your boy just great. Obviously I'm thinking that he could start with .44 cowboy loads which have very very little recoil.

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMag ... index.html

Best,
Oly

[Combat Diver]

86er,

I would also recommend the H&R in .357. You could also add a bipod to the forearm. Ruger also makes the compact Hawkeye in 6.8 SPC.

Since the .223/5.56 is legal in Texas have you considered a lightweight AR15 carbine? A standard M4 is 5.9 lbs empty. Find one with the lightweight 16" bbl and collasapble 6 position stock. You have the option of a standard carrying handle upper with iron sights or a flat top where you can add a Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS), scope or red dot. My sons where shooting my XM177E1 copy when they where 3 yrs old with the .22 LR conversion kit installed. Later you could add a different upper in different caliber from .22LR to .50 BMG.

CD

[slimster]

Lots of good gun answers here, and I can't do more than say "yep" to most of them. One thing hasn't been addressed though. Maybe things could be helped by building up his upper body strength some. Get him started doing things like push-ups, pull-ups, squeezing tennis balls, and isometric exercises to build up his arms, shoulders and chest some and most of the stated problems should be able to be overcome, other than the need to cut down a buttstock to fit his stature. Then let him decide what "floats his boat" rifle-wise, (as long as your wallet agrees.) He's got all summer, and a great coach/dad. Good luck.

[Warhawk]

I've got a .223 youth model Handi rifle that you can try. It's just sitting here in the safe waiting for my grandson to get a little older.

[crow]

Agreed lots of good answers by people committed to helping two brother shooters. Unfortunately the key missing ingredient is the age and size of this keen little bloke. 86er still hasn't helped us out with that yet. I think Hobie was entirely correct with his cautionary common sense reply about being able to handle a firearm on your own,,,,notice it wasn't a forbidding reply.

I completely feel for 86er as I will be in his boots in a few years and others here will have already gone through it. I have a two year old that wants to do everything dad does including using power tools. The speed he picks up, by observation, how they operate is frightening...then of course there is the enormous gulf between use and safe use. And the story does state that he needs help in certain situations and maybe there most of all lies the answer..get him a rifle that is closest to his comfortable size, a cartridge of adequate but sensible power and a set of shooting exercises and criteria that has to be met and thus have him prepare just like an adult shooter/hunter. Luckily I will be starting my blokes out in the archery/bowhunting so they will need to show themselves competent and good listeners before moving onto firearms.

Obviously the little bloke can shoot, as per the story, and I'm sure has had proper use imparted on him as well. He wants to shoot something larger but he needs that little extra education that says it's not the size of the animals that you shoot that matters it is how we conduct ourselves and how efficiently and empathetically take game. I'll be honest here and say I have greater respect for the fella that goes out and harvests a meat-doe for his family, humanely and efficiently than for the fella with his foot propped on an elephant's head. The elephant hunter is not wrong but more often than not mostly stroking the ego.


All the best with bringing him along...BTW I know it is not a lever but the Ruger Compacts do look like they mean business and in the 6.8 a very good child/women's cartridge...actually I like it myself.

[firefuzz]

I've read and re-read this thread with mixed feelings on even responding but here goes....Firstly, I don't believe that anyone, including myself, has the right to tell anyone else when their child is ready to do something, that's a parent's responsibility and no one else's. Secondly, I mean no offense to anyone by anything I say here. Disclaimer out of the way now....

My oldest son, I need to say now that he's always been large for his age, started rabbit hunting with me before he was four years old, he carried a stick with the "muzzle" painted red. He graduated to an air rifle just before he turned six and flushed many a rabbit with it for my late hunting buddy Tom and I to finish off. His first deer rifle was his own SKS that he could hit a 8" paper plate with every shot frome the prone or a rest at a 100yds. He has yet to kill a deer due to the fact we haven't got to hunt but a couple of time and he hasn't seen one he felt he could safely shoot at, he's turned down a couple of fine one's because he didn't know where other hunter were at that minute.

My step-son is ten years younger than his brother and could hit shotgun shells on a pedestal from the prone at 15yds at age 6 with a .22 I cut down for him. We've yet to go hunting together, he's fifteen now, but do shoot alot and he's an excellent shot and safe gun handler.

I guess my point is that each child is an individual whose skill level and maturity comes at diffent times. I think by his post that the OP's boy is already developing into a good shot and hunter thru his Dad's teachings, we all try to push our kid's forward and I know it's hard to hold them back when necessary, but something that hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is our responsiblity to the animal's were hunting to kill them humainly. Poachers have used a .22lr to kill more deer than any other cartridge, but that doesn't make it a adequate, humain cartridge to use for deer.

OP, by you post I can tell that you're teaching the boy right. A .22 WMR or .22 Hornet, if you want to teach him reloading, would be excellent on the smaller game you mentioned. A good light-weight .223 bolt gun, .357 mag or .30-30 lever would be a good choice when he can handle the extra weight. Shot placement always counts more than the weapon used.

Good luck and good hunting to both you and your boy.

Rob

[Blaine]

My boy found the M1 Carbine the first adult rifle he could comfortably handle. They're really light as I'm sure you know and they have a short reach with good peep sights to boot.

Lastly, I'll ask if you've seen the Ruger M77/44? It's a .44 mag bolt gun that weighs 5.25lbs with an 18.5" barrel and adult sized stock. Cut it to 16", trim the stock and you'll likely have it below 5 pounds and it'll fit your boy just great. Obviously I'm thinking that he could start with .44 cowboy loads which have very very little recoil.

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMag ... index.html

Best,
Oly

THAT's a good idea...or a 16" Trapper. Special level or a little lower 240s would still punch thru a deer at 100 yds....that's the best answer I've heard.

[Streetstar]

My suggestion will be a little out of left field (fire suit on). How about a lightweight barrel, collapsible stock AR-15. With a skinny barrel, they are light, and the collapsible stack will obviously be able to be adjusted as time allows. The buffer assembly in the butt takes away what little recoil the .223 has. A .22 conversion kit allows cheap and easy practice, but service grade 5.56 ammo is fairly cheap for limited practice as well

Send him out in the field with a handful of 5 round magazines loaded with ONE round apiece, as he still sounds pretty young to handle a semi-auto. 1/7 twist barrel would handle slightly heavier projectiles, -- but now these things are available in a ton of other calibers, (several 6.5's and many other custom combinations)

[piller]

Streetstar, that is actually not a bad idea. It may not be a levergun, but for starting a kid, adjustable stocks and lightweight firearms with a recoil buffer are worth thinking about. I have a DPMS that is just begging for me to scope it so that my wife can shoot it. If Joe wants to call me, and he has my phone number or can get it from Ricky, I would be happy to let Brandon try out an AR15 with some 62 grain JSP bullets. It has a 1 in 9 twist barrel and is pretty light. I would even bring another ziploc bag full of those soft chocolate chip cookies that Brandon seems to like.

[Charles]

You don't mention the age or size of the child. That would make a difference. The calibers and choices you mentioned while legal in Texas are marginal at best for deer and antelope. Couple a marginal cartridge and a young inexperienced hunter and you have a receipe for wounded game.

I fully understand the desire of a father to have his son enjoy the hunt with him. I have a son (now 33) that I introduced to hunting. He kept begging me to let him shoot a deer. I hauled out a Win. 94 carbine in 30-30 and told him when he could put three out of three rounds in a paper plate at 100 yards, I would take him hunting.

I made the decision that a rifle and load of adequate power would be the decider of when he could hunt deer. When he was 12 he put the three out of three in the paper plate and we went hunting. He killed his first deer cleanly that year.

That is just the way I did it and I offer it just as that. Each father has to think through this decision in his own way.