Their War

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:16 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02785.html

Take a look.....

It's not chest thumping, it's the way it is and was...

Even for Me, who never heard a shot fired in anger, the difference was vast...Not better or worse, just vast...... Once the Vietnam Era passed, I never thought that I would once more be expected to feel bad or embarrassed for my service, or have anyone but long haired hippy scum denegrate me for it.......Guess it hasn't changed for some

The Leverguns version of Dogs and Soldiers keep off the grass: Thanks for your service, but don't talk about it

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:57 pm

It is my considered opinion, that unless you have served in the military, whether in peace or in war, you will not understand the military. Every personality type in existence is present in the military. Where the civilian world now seems to look for "what went wrong", the military, when faced with borderline behavior, does one of two things, they channel that energy into productive action, or they toss out the deviant like bad garbage. This is the only bad action, I would say the military has been guilty of in the past 50 years. I served with many fine folks; some of whom were only there because a Judge gave them a choice. Many countries, as ours did at one time, have compulsory service, and some use that as a mandatory requirement for full citizenship. I personally believe that we would be much better served if we went back to that. No, some folks don't do well in a military environment. Too bad, so sad. No offense to any that haven't served, but... it is my opinion that... Until you have offered your life for your rights and freedoms, you have no sense of the sacrifices that have been made in order for you to enjoy them.
That I would give my life to protect your right to disagree with me, means a very great deal to me. For, I KNOW exactly what I'm offering.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:10 pm

Griff wrote:....Many countries, as ours did at one time, have compulsory service, and some use that as a mandatory requirement for full citizenship. I personally believe that we would be much better served if we went back to that. ....

I strongly agree. People do not fully appreciate what they have not personally paid for.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:21 pm

JMO, and no disespect meant - But I put all that behind me, when I got out of the service in '66, and got another life.

Stuff like that will flat eat you up, if you let it - and IMHO unless someone's service was dishonorable, no one deserves to live like that.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:01 pm

That is a very interesting article.

I have many members of my family that are and were military. Some are / were combat vets. I also have friends and acquaintances that are military and combat vets.

I've no doubt at all that there is a totally different mind set between those who have been in the military and those who have not. It's easy to see. I acknowledge that there are many things they've gone through that I will never understand, and I leave it at that.

What I don't do is demean, denigrate or insult anybody because they were in the military. Never have, never will.

On the other hand I won't be demeaned, denigrated or insulted by military or ex military personnel because I've never been in the military.

One is just as wrong as the other.

Joe

FALPhil · Post by **FALPhil** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:07 pm

"Compulsory service" is a euphemism for slavery. I am totally against it. I volunteered back when "compulsory service" was in effect. Put in 4 years active and 6 years as a reservist before medical issues caught up with me. However, I have no problem whatsoever restricting citizenship to those who serve. They don't even have to serve in the military, but if they want all of the perks and benefits of this country, they need to serve somewhere, even if it is walking along the highways collecting trucker bombs. But, if they don't want to serve, that is OK by me, as long as they don't expect all the benefits accorded to those who do.

Kilroy6644 · Post by **Kilroy6644** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:11 pm

J Miller wrote:That is a very interesting article.

I have many members of my family that are and were military. Some are / were combat vets. I also have friends and acquaintances that are military and combat vets.

I've no doubt at all that there is a totally different mind set between those who have been in the military and those who have not. It's easy to see. I acknowledge that there are many things they've gone through that I will never understand, and I leave it at that.

What I don't do is demean, denigrate or insult anybody because they were in the military. Never have, never will.

On the other hand I won't be demeaned, denigrated or insulted by military or ex military personnel because I've never been in the military.

One is just as wrong as the other.

Joe

Exactly. I've been wanting to post a response to this thread, but kept getting too riled up to post something that wasn't out of line. You nailed it perfectly.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:36 pm

What I don't do is demean, denigrate or insult anybody because they were in the military. Never have, never will.

Really, JMiller? That's exactly how I felt on the locked thread

You've had so many Rants on this board, you should be the last one to complain about someone else's

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:14 pm

I dunno what to say. Heck I appreciate all the guys that serve but that dont automatically mean anything about them being deserving of respect.

My fatherinlaw introduced me to a hero one day. I knew him only as My Daly for a few years. I knew my fatherinlaw knew him from ww2 but nothing else.
One day we moved the old gents belongings for him & he had boxes of comendations & medals. I asked him, Mr Daly & he said they were just things he got in the service & elaborated no further.

My father in law later took me aside & showed me some news clippings from the time & some testimonials to the mans valor. He personally took out 4 German machine gun positions single handledly recieving numerous injuries while killing at least 12 enemy soldiers. He recieved many many medals & saw action in many other places. To this day he walks with a terrible limp because of his injuries. As I said he is a hero.

His military career? We had a war, he signed up & faught for his country & when the war was over he went about his buisness. Now its just my opinion but men like that deserve honor & recognition above & beyond the fellows who join for the retirement or scholorships & find themselves in battle.
He asks no recognition, refuses it really, he didn't join for prestige, he did what was right because it was right. He served but asked nothing in return, no career, no pension only a safe free country to come home to.

That man is deserving of every ounce of respect a person can muster.

The resentment you see here I think comes from guys that feel they are belittled by you guys because theyre "just civilians & dont understand."

I think its fair to say every serviceman was once just a civilian & most will someday just be a civilian again.
Theres a reason the forefathers did not want a standing army & it was the fear of a gulf forming between the citizenry & the military.
Every man should be ready to lay down his life for a just cause & the military is not a requirement to be a patriotic upstanding citizen.

When you have guys snickering about how the citizens just dont grasp it its going to breed resentment, not unlike the resentment towards LEO who act superior.

We are a nation of equals regardless of how you serve your country. Some choose to serve militarilly, other choose to serve by being productive & funding the country. I dare say that without the non military working stiffs we wouldn't have the military we have & I'd add that if there were not so many educational & other perks we wouldn't either.
After all, how many join just to serve & would do so without a retirement & bennies to look forward to?

Regardless, tho I may question folks & not fall over myself bowing before our veterans you can rest assured I hold our folks in uniform in very high regard!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:32 pm

I enjoyed being in the service.

It's real adventure. Going places, doing things, meeting people. People still think I'm lying to them when I tell about some of the things I did and saw.

I surely do miss the sense of purpose, and being surrounded by good men whom I trust and who trust me. What I most sorely miss in civilian life is the comeraderie.

It was my duty, my honor, and my great privilege to serve. It's my view that a period of service is a man's duty to society as a man, to defend his country and his way of life.

That said, it's my opinion that seeking special consideration or compensation, or gauging oneself as superior in some respect for simply doing what a man should do, is a bit boorish.

You've a right to be proud of your service, but nobody else owes you a dime. Don't let it go to your head. Thou art only a man.

Not intending to throw stones, or to point at anyone or anything, just my view on the subject of military service.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:42 pm

I used to handle military records. I knew guys who never wore but the more "basic" of medals/awards as was expected of somebody of their seniority. Yet, their records told the truth. Men who risked life and limb to go out into harms way to pull other men out of harms way, again and again... They were at the time, draftees, even one concientious objector (who was a medic), who won air medals, Bronze Stars with V device (for valor), Silver Stars... Yes, I've known a Medal of Honor recipient or three. To a man they were humble, honest and decent men. BUT they don't think like a civilian, they aren't, can't be the same as somebody who was not there.

Servicepeople don't, in the vast majority of cases, feel that civilians are less but only that they are different and sometimes that they don't get "it" or IOW, don't prioritize well. Some things are important, some things aren't. Some folks don't know the difference and those people will be thought less of. Seems to me that most folks here DO know the difference and we've seen it time and again.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:44 pm

FWiedner wrote:I enjoyed being in the service.

It's real adventure. Going places, doing things, meeting people. People still think I'm lying to them when I tell about some of the things I did and saw.

I surely do miss the sense of purpose, and being surrounded by good men whom I trust and who trust me. What I most sorely miss in civilian life is the comeraderie.

It was my duty, my honor, and my great privilege to serve. It's my view that a period of service is a man's duty to society as a man, to defend his country and his way of life.

That said, it's my opinion that seeking special consideration or compensation, or gauging oneself as superior in some respect for simply doing what a man should do, is a bit boorish.

Not intending to throw stones, or to point at anyone or anything, just my view on the subject of military service.

Plus 1, Bro..........Boy, did this thread get turned around by the overly sensitive types who didn't serve...... I'm trying real hard to find where anyone, including me, slammed, upset on, beat chest, or otherwise looked down on those that didn't serve

On the contrary.....and I mentioned this in the locked thread, this Site has a pattern of crapping on someone would would dare mention their service in a positive way.....It's not my fault you opted not to serve, but I'll be darned if I'll be make to feel bad because I did and choose to talk about it.......

SmokeEater2 · Post by **SmokeEater2** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:44 pm

That said, it's my opinion that seeking special consideration or compensation, or gauging oneself as superior in some respect for simply doing what a man should do, is a bit boorish.

You've a right to be proud of your service, but nobody else owes you a dime. Don't let it go to your head. Thou art only a man.

Not intending to throw stones, or to point at anyone or anything, just my view on the subject of military service.

[/quote]

FWieder, Excellent sizeup of the subject. Good post.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:52 pm

To establish, build and maintain a nation, it requires every citizen to play a part and do his or her duty. This thread could hardly contain a list of the things that people do that serve this nation in one way or another. Each requires some kind of sacrifice and each has some sort of benefit. Noone understand another sacrifice. They only understand their own.

It seems to me to be unwise and shallow to polarize a complex nation and say that one person's contribution is greater or lesser than anothers. Each does what they can do or must do for the common good.

It seems to be part of human nature to want to exhault what we do and denigrate what the other fellow does. Understanding is not easy and often impossible, but respect is a matter of choice. We can choose to respect the contributions of others whether we understand them or not.

Lest anyone should wonder, this little missive is neither pro nor anti military. It is pro America and pro American.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:26 pm

BlaineG wrote:
What I don't do is demean, denigrate or insult anybody because they were in the military. Never have, never will.
Really, JMiller? That's exactly how I felt on the locked thread You've had so many Rants on this board, you should be the last one to complain about someone else's

I've had my rants, yes; many of them. But not one has been about any bodies military service.

As for the other thread I did not denegrate, demean, or insult your service.
What I said was:

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Old Army Myth or Fact??? Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
BlaineG wrote:
HOW MANY TRUCKS ON POST, PRIVATE???

Hundreds, Sergeant Major......?

WRONG, PRIVATE. ONLY ONE. AT THE TOP OF THE FLAG POLE AT HEADQUARTERS AND IT HAS ONE ROUND OF AMMO IN IT FOR THE .45 BURIED UNDER THE FLAGPOLE.

I sure hope that's true......I sure miss the military people and tradition Smile With all due respect to some of you, civilians are a PITA and don't understand a bunch of stuff.

Blaine,

We civilians know more than you military types give us credit for. As far as I'm concerned your credibility just went down the crapper .......... with all due respect of course.

Joe
_________________
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts Wink .***

Veteran of the original Leverguns.com forum, Advanced Levergunner - 6122 posts.

Now, where is the insult in my comment? You insulted, denigrated and demeaned civilians, I simply took issue with that and said so.

Your calling me thin skinned is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

To others,
Now, as for only those who have served in the military being citizens that's bullshit. That would lead maybe 1% of the population as the elite citizenry and the rest as peons or slaves. The military is a necessary thing, but the military is not the do all end all of service to this country.
For current or ex military personnel to think like this is the height of elitism and snobbery.
Without us civilians doing the manufacturing, paying the taxes, feeing the government coffers you'd have no money or toys to go play war with.

Now Blaine, there's my rant for today. Happy now?

Joe

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:03 pm

I feel the lock coming down on this thread too.

Before it does: I love my country, I love my brother who serves, and I love the freedom that him and all the others help provide for us. Thank you to all.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:12 pm

Andrew wrote:I feel the lock coming down on this thread too.

Before it does: I love my country, I love my brother who serves, and I love the freedom that him and all the others help provide for us. Thank you to all.

+1 I did not serve - to my deepest regret. But many in my family line (pretty much all) have served.

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:28 pm

JMiller,

Not demeaning?

You sure can use some technical terminology! I guess that's the civilian way to speak.

"Respectable"? Hmmm......

Shawn

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:04 am

BlaineG wrote: Plus 1, Bro..........Boy, did this thread get turned around by the overly sensitive types who didn't serve...... I'm trying real hard to find where anyone, including me, slammed, upset on, beat chest, or otherwise looked down on those that didn't serve On the contrary.....and I mentioned this in the locked thread, this Site has a pattern of crapping on someone would would dare mention their service in a positive way.....It's not my fault you opted not to serve, but I'll be darned if I'll be make to feel bad because I did and choose to talk about it.......

You seem to be the real sensitive one.
What gives? I don't see anything on this Site that warrants your bluster.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:14 am

El Mac wrote:
BlaineG wrote: Plus 1, Bro..........Boy, did this thread get turned around by the overly sensitive types who didn't serve...... I'm trying real hard to find where anyone, including me, slammed, upset on, beat chest, or otherwise looked down on those that didn't serve On the contrary.....and I mentioned this in the locked thread, this Site has a pattern of crapping on someone would would dare mention their service in a positive way.....It's not my fault you opted not to serve, but I'll be darned if I'll be make to feel bad because I did and choose to talk about it.......
You seem to be the real sensitive one.
What gives? I don't see anything on this Site that warrants your bluster.

You're entitled to your opinion...and yessir, I don't care for some of the attitudes shown here....

It's funny, we Ohhh and Ahhhh a new gun purchase, a nice trophy or a good hunt, but put down a fella talking up a matter of personal achievment and pride in his life

Skewed values, IMO

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:24 am

To get back on the subject of the posted article. Yes there is a big difference in Military society and Civilian society. As much as I respect and value all of you unless you stand in the shoes of a service member you have no idea how things for us are. Am I complaining or trying to degrade you if you havent served no. I dont expect anyone to understand where servicemen and women are comming from. Heck my wife and I have been married for over 10 years and she still doesnt quite get most of it.
Most of us want nothing from the rest of you except that you are there when we get home from were ever we just spent the last couple of months to a couple years. Heck I even have a hard time accepting thanks from people that are just honest to goodness thankfull that I go to work every day. Mostly because I dont see what I do as any thing overly special to me it is a legacy. It is my duty to my family.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:31 am

I graduated from The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina. I could have entered as a 2nd Lt. I didn't simply because I was selfish. I wanted to make more money.

Well looking back, I would have made more money and enjoyed that sense of service to my country if I had joined. And, even though I have served my community in various ways, I will forever regret not being there along side my friends in the Gulf War.

GOD WILL BLESS EACH AND EVERY U.S. SOLDIER AND THEIR FAMILIES...PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE!

JOHN 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Humbly,
bogie

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:00 am

I've written and re-written the following several times. I finally said be done with it and post it:

I feel the need to clarify my original post: I'm not calling for military service as a condition of citizenship, nor am I raising military service as better than any other, but, compulsory military or alternative service is not the evil some seem to think. I had classmates that rendered their service in the Peace Corps, I also had a couple that ran to Canada; only to return when amnesty was granted. I admire their willingness to stick to their convictions. However, for all of us there was a price to pay. Different prices to be sure, but a price, none the less. And each may have thought their price was the highest. I can tell you mine wasn't, but... I knew some of those that paid the highest price.

Nor is any of the above meant to denigrate anyone that has not provided service in such fashions to the country.

Sometimes, it's very hard to not brag about what one did in the service, which often comes across and as either unseemly or a simply the ravings of a braggart. I tend to save those stories for my drinkin' buddies, all of whom BTW, did serve. It's uncomfortable to open up with civilians. Same reason cops tend to associate with only cops; and for some, it goes even deeper, they won't associate with cops that weren't prior military. And the same goes for many other professions.

So... let's stick to leverguns.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:05 am

at times I get caught up in petty things, money, politics at work, personal stuff, things that get me upset and stressed. Then eventually I'll make some connection back home and I'll realize that the other "stuff" isn't really that important and it's the things like home and family that really matter.

I think military people have to stay focused on what's really important, because of what they put on the line, whereas we have the luxury of obsessing about the silly things. They must think we're frivolous, which of course we are.

I've never been in the military but that would be my guess. Of course there's politics and silliness there, too, but every person has to be self-motivated to do what they do, and if military people make that choice then somewhere in there they have to know what really matters.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:04 am

BlaineG wrote:
El Mac wrote:
BlaineG wrote: Plus 1, Bro..........Boy, did this thread get turned around by the overly sensitive types who didn't serve...... I'm trying real hard to find where anyone, including me, slammed, upset on, beat chest, or otherwise looked down on those that didn't serve On the contrary.....and I mentioned this in the locked thread, this Site has a pattern of crapping on someone would would dare mention their service in a positive way.....It's not my fault you opted not to serve, but I'll be darned if I'll be make to feel bad because I did and choose to talk about it.......
You seem to be the real sensitive one.
What gives? I don't see anything on this Site that warrants your bluster.
You're entitled to your opinion...and yessir, I don't care for some of the attitudes shown here....

It's funny, we Ohhh and Ahhhh a new gun purchase, a nice trophy or a good hunt, but put down a fella talking up a matter of personal achievment and pride in his life Skewed values, IMO

Just my opinion, but I was always taught not to brag. Was no need for it. But hey, you feel differently, knock yourself out.