Choose Gunsmith Carefully!

[JohndeFresno]

Wow.

This is about a major mistake concerning a revolver, but it touches on any firearm. Know your gunsmith. Don't be impressed if the company has been in business for 40 or more years, because it means zip. Check with your buddies before entrusting your firearms to anybody with a title.

A few years ago, I brought in a handgun for some tuning. I went to one of the most prominent and established dealers in Fresno, a fairly large city these days, and he put his gunsmith to work. When I received the gun back, there was a deep scratch in the frame just above the trigger, showing the aluminum frame of the .38 snubbie underneath - where he had put the gun in a vice. The damage was already done, and I'm not one to sue or whatever (usually) so I just made a mental note not to use that gunsmith again while he was employed for the gun store.

I purchased my latest acquisition - a Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8" .45 Colt / .45 ACP SA at the same store. The price was right - they always are there. I got a tremendous deal on my Taurus .44 Mag at the same store, a few years prior. Having followed all of the admonitions about checking the cylinder throats and chamber to ascertain which size of cast bullet to use, I requested their gunsmith - a different guy this time - to merely check them out and advise me. The price agreed upon was $25.00.

I'll save somebody a post - yes, I could do it myself; but the advice I get is not to rely upon my dial caliper, so I'd have to purchase a micrometer just for that examination, anyway - and that would be about 25 bucks or more. Well, now I'll have to make that purchase; once again I can't trust the gunsmith to safely and accurately perform a very simple procedure.

When I called back for the results (so that I can place an order for the appropriately sized cast bullets from Montana Bullet Works), I was told that it mic'ed out to .462 (smallest) and .4625 (largest). Hmmm. I told the gun store that this was impossible, or else they had a factory flawed handgun. Three hours later I called them back - they had my phone number transposed and could not reach me, despite the fact that I had already corrected the wrong number with the store owner when I paid for the gun to start the 10-day waiting period. Again, this is one of the largest and best known gun dealers in the San Joaquin Valley, located in Fresno. No, I won't go there and tell you who, since I have had problems with other gunsmiths and the reliability problem seems to be endemic in my part of the state.

Well, the people are nice enough - they just have totally incompetent help. The guy who did the job called me back and said that the micrometer was seriously out of calibration, and that he rechecked and the gun is "within specs." "Within specs?" I managed, as politely as I could, "What were the actual diameters?"

"I'll be glad to show you all of the diameters and which chambers they relate to when you pick up your gun."

"No thanks - I just need the correct minimum and maximum diameters so that I can determine what size cast bullet to order so my loads will be ready for the gun when I pick it up." Then he proceeded to tell me that only the diameter of the forcing cone is needed, and I talked about obturation issues with Ruger .45's, and why it is a good idea to know what your cylinder looks like. This clown is a gunsmith, and I'm having to tell him his job. I could forgive him not knowing about the cylinder thing - I've been shooting and carrying guns for over 50 years and I only learned about this issue in the last couple of years. But using a mic that was improperly calibrated, or even telling a customer that he has a .46 caliber handgun? And the boss' wife was the one who relayed that info to me, knowing that I purchased a Ruger .45 - she's been in the business as long as her husband.

OK - I finally got my figures. I think that the 'smith possibly just wrote the wrong numbers (.462) because his head was where it doesn't belong (putting it nicely) and maybe he saw the barrel length of "4.62 in." on the work order (4 5/8"). Whatever - for it to go this far, I've plunked down the money but now I've got to go out and buy some sinkers and a mic, since I won't trust what they say now if they say "duck" and there's a gunfight outside.

Fifty years ago in this part of town, I don't believe that would happen. But it seems that these days in every trade, the idiots (or "young whippersnappers," if you prefer) are somehow allowed to make any type of living regardless of their abilities and skills. You just don't know anymore who knows what a hole in the ground is or whether he's looking at an unmentionable part of his anatomy. Yup, I'm pretty steamed. I feel better now, and no expletives were used.

Check your sources before you entrust your firearm or other vaulables to anybody.

[jdad]

You've unfortunately learned what I have.

There are "gunsmiths" and there are "machinists that work on guns".

The best, local, gunsmith sold his shop about 3 years ago, to be Weatherby's Senior Custom shop Inspector. You had to drop off your firearms, at one several local gunshops, and he would pick them up. He did not allow anyone to "visit" his shop. He was there to work, not socialize. Now I send my stuff up to another "old school", professional, gunsmith, John Taylor. John will send your firearm back, with an attached invoice, so you can inspect his work before sending payment.

[AJMD429]

Three hours later I called them back - they had my phone number transposed and could not reach me...

I guess THAT was sort of an omen of numeric/math problems to come, huh. . .

It gets WORSE - that's the sort of stuff we have to deal with in HEALTH CARE all the time, and that's even as "insiders" - labs doing wrong tests, insurances charging patients for things never done, consultants saying things tested or examined that weren't.

It seems INTEGRITY is not a common thing nowdays, in any profession. . .

[Mike D.]

I know of only one reliable gunsmith in this area and he is employed by the State. No shop type smiths that I have encountered are not overly competent, excepting one who lives in Yolo.

[awp101]

There are "gunsmiths" and there are "machinists that work on guns".

You left out one more category: parts changers

[piller]

Three hours later I called them back - they had my phone number transposed and could not reach me...

I guess THAT was sort of an omen of numeric/math problems to come, huh. . .

It gets WORSE - that's the sort of stuff we have to deal with in HEALTH CARE all the time, and that's even as "insiders" - labs doing wrong tests, insurances charging patients for things never done, consultants saying things tested or examined that weren't.

It seems INTEGRITY is not a common thing nowdays, in any profession. . .

I fully agree, INTEGRITY is not a common thing. Even worse, it is harder to find every day.

[El Chivo]

tell me about it...


http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... ing+horror

[Pete44ru]

That's exactly why, about 30 years ago, when I wanted to look for a gunsmith, I looked in my mirror.

At least, when something goes wrong, I know exactly who to blame...........................

.

[TedH]

That's exactly why, about 30 years ago, when I wanted to look for a gunsmith, I looked in my mirror.

At least, when something goes wrong, I know exactly who to blame...........................

.

+1

A long time ago I took a project to a so called "gunsmith". Not a big deal, install a barrel, finish ream the chamber, etc. After about two minutes into the conversation with him, I decided I would be better off doing it myself. Have never paid anyone to work on one of my guns.

[C. Cash]

I feel your pain John. I've had so many bad experiences locally I've pretty much given up. The one guy I used to use now only works on high dollar custom stuff. He won't touch my nickel and dime(to him) jobs. Other gunsmith's put your work so far down the totem pole that you have no hope of getting it back within a years time.

The one great experience I've had recently was with Alan Harton down in Texas. Although he's obviously a master pistolsmith who is in high demand for his custom pistols, he seems to be among the rare breed who will stoop down and help us common folk with our little jobs. He fixed my US Arms Abilene in record time, and proved to be a man of his word in every respect. I've never had Steve Young work on my guns but he has been incredibly helpful with my questions and seems to work in the same vein as Harton. I've had good luck with Keith Kearcher out in Oregon, rebuilding the barrel lug on my Grand Dad's old shotgun. A previous gunsmith had botched the job on it.

[brno602]

All the good gunsmith up here have died, or are Ret and enjoying the Beach someware!
A few years ago I had my Hi Power Worked on I should have known better he was english!!!! The sight fell off after 40 rds I tried to find a guy with a German accent but no luck so I did it myself!! Eh!
I love to read Gunsmith books I have a few good ones too. I also have friends that are gun nut's and work in machine shops hmm it has worked out well after lot's of book work.
But to find a guy that can say ya I can do that good luck!!!

[Kansas Ed]

You've unfortunately learned what I have.

There are "gunsmiths" and there are "machinists that work on guns".

Quite frankly I find the opposite. There are gunsmith's who have gone to the mail order gunsmithing course, and have absolutely NO machining background. Those people are worthless. And then there are machinists who IF they are competent machinists can work on danged near anything very well. And just because someone has a "machinist" background doesn't mean they are really "machinists". I've worked in enough machine shops through the years that it's obvious the newer class of "machinists" are trained only in NC machining and know nothing of the basics of operating a manual mill or lathe. And if you don't understand the basics of machine work and let the computer do the feeds and speeds then you aren't a real machinist. Geeze...ask a young machinist to do a little trig and they totally freeze up. Actually most design engineers today are the same way.....

Ed

[jdad]

You've unfortunately learned what I have.

There are "gunsmiths" and there are "machinists that work on guns".

Quite frankly I find the opposite. There are gunsmith's who have gone to the mail order gunsmithing course, and have absolutely NO machining background. Those people are worthless. And then there are machinists who IF they are competent machinists can work on danged near anything very well. And just because someone has a "machinist" background doesn't mean they are really "machinists". I've worked in enough machine shops through the years that it's obvious the newer class of "machinists" are trained only in NC machining and know nothing of the basics of operating a manual mill or lathe. And if you don't understand the basics of machine work and let the computer do the feeds and speeds then you aren't a real machinist. Geeze...ask a young machinist to do a little trig and they totally freeze up. Actually most design engineers today are the same way.....

Ed

Ed,
That's my point and I probably should have been more clear, in my original post. A true gunsmith has the skills of a machinist, millwright, cabinetmaker, and engineer.

David

[firefuzz]

You've unfortunately learned what I have.

There are "gunsmiths" and there are "machinists that work on guns".

Quite frankly I find the opposite. There are gunsmith's who have gone to the mail order gunsmithing course, and have absolutely NO machining background. Those people are worthless. And then there are machinists who IF they are competent machinists can work on danged near anything very well. And just because someone has a "machinist" background doesn't mean they are really "machinists". I've worked in enough machine shops through the years that it's obvious the newer class of "machinists" are trained only in NC machining and know nothing of the basics of operating a manual mill or lathe. And if you don't understand the basics of machine work and let the computer do the feeds and speeds then you aren't a real machinist. Geeze...ask a young machinist to do a little trig and they totally freeze up. Actually most design engineers today are the same way.....

Ed

I have to agree with Ed here. My gunsmith was a machinist for 30 years and tinkered on guns as a hobby. When he retired he went to a 2 year 'smithing school to learn more about gun design and finish work. For anything I won't tackle he's the man.

He works 6 days a week and has got more work that he can shake a stick at. He's only open to the public two days a week and says he doesn't plan to get much work done on those two days. Most people want their stuff put at the front of the line, to be picked up in two days...good gunsmiths don't work like that. When I take something to him I tell him what's wrong or what I want, give him the gun and walk off. He'll call me when it's done, I don't bug him about it. The one time I needed a gun done in a hurry I felt bad asking him to do it, he called me at 4:00 that afternoon and told me it was ready, but he's worked on dozens of guns of mine and people's that I've sent to him and he knows I'll never ask unless I have to.

I've got his cell number, very few do, but he also knows I've got boxes of screws, springs, pins and so forth that I've accumlated over the years and isn't bashful about calling to see if I've got something a customer's gun needs to get it out quicker. He always offers, but I never let him pay for the parts, but I don't pay as much for his services as other customers do and he's given me more little pieces that I probably ever will give him.

It's hard making a living as a gunsmith, no one thinks anything about paying a parts changer mechanic $30 plus an hour to work on a car, but paying a highly skilled gunsmith the same amount sends most people away screaming because they have no idea how much time is involved in fixing up Grandpa's old shotgun. IMHO, that's the main reason we see a lot of "blacksmiths" hanging out gunsmithing shingles and so very few true, skilled gunsmiths today.

I appreciate the fact that I've got him 15 minutes away, most don't. If someone made a bumper sticker that said "Support your local gunsmith" I'd have one on my pickup and I don't usually put stickers on my truck.

Rob

[Rusty]

Well John, at the very least I'd be asking for my 25 bucks back since they didn't do what you paid them to do.

[Markbo]

Thank goodness I am in the same town as Alan Harton. I NEVER have a problem with gunsmiths anymore!

[JohndeFresno]

Well John, at the very least I'd be asking for my 25 bucks back since they didn't do what you paid them to do.

You know the drill - they are terribly embarrassed, now, and will fall all over themselves and me when I pick up the gun, with more info. I just won't take their word for it, or for anything else anymore. But they are a good place to shop, and the owner and his wife are really super nice people.

Ironically, I received a post card in the mail today -
"John,

The cylinders on your revolvers are within specs. The micrometer we used first is out of spec. So I used a newer one and it came out fine.

Thank you,
[signed, or rather printed] Dodo
The name has been changed to protect the clueless

This is the card he sent out when he couldn't reach me by phone, because they had transposed my phone number - and before our last call. At least the poor guy was trying to make me happy.

[Wrangler John]

Mic? What about pin gauges? What about a telescoping gauge and Mic? How about just slugging the hole and measuring? Any good machinist can calibrate a mic with standards, even I got mic standards in my tool box. Gunsmithing ain't what it used to be. Last good guy I had do revolver work was F. Bob Chow in San Francisco. Now-a-days it's all gotta go out of state.

[piller]

A little while back, I asked 86er about gun shops for another friend, and he had me steer them to Dury's in San Antonio. Those Smith & Wesson revolvers came back with trigger jobs which are sweet enough to cause cavities. I just thought I would mention a good gunsmith since there are too many bad ones around. So far the only things I have ever done on a gun is to take a Marlin and polish up a couple of surfaces on the lever with a Dremel tool and jeweler's rouge, and a Remington 700 and polish up the locking lugs the same way, and burnish the chamber on a little Crickett due to sticky extraction.

[JohndeFresno]

...How about just slugging the hole and measuring?...Now-a-days it's all gotta go out of state.

Yes, that is what I asked the 'smith to do - either cast or slug the chamber throats and bore at the breech and measure them. When I came in last Saturday to pick up the gun (after the 10 day waiting period) he waited on me and still didn't understand. He thought that the "within specs" answer worked. I didn't bother to discuss it; I'll just steer friends and family away from the store.

Found a new 'smith that has been in Fresno for 35 years(!), and is from a family of expert machinists. His brother and father run a custom car shop next door and share equipment. I learned that he actually does a great deal of work of the locals and others who call themselves gunsmiths, take in the work and charge the customer, and then quietly give him the work on assignment. Lots of heavy machinery like industrial press, lathe, milling machine hydraulic punch and so on. I saw some of his impressive work, including the Lombardi magnum rifle - the first one in the series of rifle photos at his website. The website for Phil Lombardi (Phil's Reloading Supplies) can be see here:
http://lombardiarmsinc.com/
The big dude with the mustache, in the hunting photos, is Phil.

He is an avid shooter and hunter, which matters a lot to me. His office hatrack is a head mount of a beautiful buck that he shot at some ridiculous distance. I think he currently holds some type of long range record; we discussed a lot during the time that I talked with him. So I've given him some work, and he has quoted a fair price and reasonable turnaround time.

The only problem is that he has had all of California's laws, restrictions and anti-gun culture that he can stand, and will be moving to Montana as soon as possible. Wow - that's probably part of the reason that it's so hard to find good, professional 'smiths around here.

I guess that when he moves, I'll need to ask him for a referral, much like a good doctor leaving the practice.

[KCSO]

I will be reopening my shop late this fall. I will mainly be taking work from gunshops and will be open to the public only on an appointment basis. I just do not have time to discuss with Joe Blow why his 30-06 is better than Sam Smiths 270. I got a fairly good start in the business since on Grandfather was a blacksmith and the other was a mechanic/machinist. I started in the gun work by building custom muzzleloader and got roped into fixing stuff for folks by accident, I still prefer restoration and custom work, but that's not where the money is.

Now as to your original problem... Here we use plug gauges and you would get a reply like this...

Cylinder Ruger Blackhawk #345678
#1 pass .451 no go .452
#2 pass .452 no go .4525
#3 pass .4515 no go .4525

and so forth. We would then offer to ream each chamber to the same diameter as the largest and would also offer a 11 degree forcing cone taper and polish. We polish forcing cones to dead smooth and finish with tripoli. This really cuts down on leading.

That's the way I had to do it when I apprenticed to an old fellow about 30 years ago.

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you for the information, KCSO.