Caution for Enfield Shooters: Catastrophic Failure

[Kansas Ed]

I know we have a bunch of Enfield shooters on this forum, and this incident on another forum I frequent, brought to light something I didn't know and I bet others here didn't know. So everyone that shoots these old girls ought to read.

http://reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15345

Ed

[KCSO]

The DP means DRILL PURPOSE and were not meant to be fired! It would take very little research to prevent this.

[AJMD429]

"DP" means "Drill Purposes Only". I have heard tales of these rifles failing catastrophically. They supposedly are worn to the point that the armorer downgraded them from "service" to "practice" because they were deemed unsafe to fire.

Yes, BUT most of us (myself, at least) are not familiar with all the various armory stamps and proof stamps and government stamps and import stamps and inspector stamps, so I can see how a person would just assume it's "just another stamp".

I guess that's one assumption I won't make from now on, though...

I think whoever designates ANY gun/appliance/machine "unsafe" for regular use has a distinct responsibility to de-activate said item, whether by destroying it, or doing something to make it difficult or impossible to just pick the item up and 'use' it normally.

Even if it were needed for 'drills' involving working the action and 'firing' by pulling the trigger on a dummy round, a simple fix would have been to mill off the end of the firing pin. If the pin were left in, and the cut was conspicuous enough to obviously not just be a 'break', that would at least lead to someone speculating as to WHY it was cut, and hopefully a closer inspection of the gun or review of the history.

Just removing the firing pin would have at least been a start, or super-gluing it, or plugging the chamber or something.

Merely stamping "DP" on them is NOT satisfactory, in my opinion. There would be plenty of room on the metal or stock to permanently engrave "UNSAFE - Do Not Fire...!"

Inexcusable.

Good thing it was "only" part of a guy's thumb. Could have been far worse, and that was bad enough...

[Charles]

My thoughts on the matter at hand.

1) Rifles are dangerous gizmos for a number of reasons and folks who pick them up should understand that.

2) You don't take an unfamiliar rifle and start jacking round in the chamber and pulling the trigger. YOu know what you have before you fire it.

3) When you turn loose 50K psi or so or expanding hot gas contained in a little brass bottle a few inches from you face you should do your thinking before you pull the trigger.

4) If you don't know what you are doing, put the rifle down until a grown-up comes along and can help you understand what you have and how to use it (or not) safely.

5) You can't blame you lack of knowledge and foolishness on the snake who sold the rifle. Remember... Caveat Emptor!

6) I dont feel good about the poor saps injury. I hate to see anybody in pain.

7) None-the-less, he was a darn fool!

[damienph]

I think that "Old Joe" is pretty lucky to have grown old. Most of us who shoot Lee-Enfields are familiar with drill rifles. I wonder what he thought those extra holes in the receiver were for?

[Bruce Scott]

In addition to being stamped, DP rifles should be marked on both the butt and forewood with wide white painted bands on which is stencilled 'DP'.


Some pics of a Lithgow DP SMLE here:
http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_thing ... w-smle-iii

[Kansas Ed]

My interpretation of the post was that there was only DP markings on the rifle. He wondered later if there were another hole in the receiver due to the later post. If there were only the DP markings, perhaps people who are up on Enfields would know this, but the average shopper and shooter wouldn't. My intent to post this was based on the assumption that the only way the rifles were marked was the DP stamp. If the photo's that Bruce posted are any indication, there don't appear to be any additional holes in the rifle. As AMJD pointed out earlier, Enfields have so many stamps and markings on them, the DP would likely go unnoticed by the average shooter, due to the fact that they were the most prolifically used rifle in modern warfare.

Ed

[KCSO]

When the guns were marked they were in military possession and were ISSUED for DRILL and were supervised by the Sgt in charge. When truck loads were sold to various folks here some greedy folks failed to tell customers the guns were wall hangers only. That isn't the fault of anyone but the greedy guts selling them. By the second week of boot camp the British recruits knew what DP meant. I have been almost thrown out of gun shows for passing this information on to people.

[Ben_Rumson]

Whatever happened to having a milsurp or any old gun checked by a gunsmith?

[horsesoldier03]

Sounds like they need to plug the chamber so that it doesnt accept cartridges to protect the IGNORANT!

[awp101]

My thoughts on the matter at hand.

2) You don't take an unfamiliar rifle and start jacking round in the chamber and pulling the trigger. YOu know what you have before you fire it.

3) When you turn loose 50K psi or so or expanding hot gas contained in a little brass bottle a few inches from you face you should do your thinking before you pull the trigger.

4) If you don't know what you are doing, put the rifle down until a grown-up comes along and can help you understand what you have and how to use it (or not) safely.

5) You can't blame you lack of knowledge and foolishness on the snake who sold the rifle. Remember... Caveat Emptor!

6) I dont feel good about the poor saps injury. I hate to see anybody in pain.

7) None-the-less, he was a darn fool!

+infinity!

The rifle was clearly marked DP from what I read. 30 seconds on the internet or a few minutes with a book would have saved some time and pain. There may not have been a book seller with an Enfield book at the show but he obviously has the internet.

[Ray Newman]

Maybe it’s just me, but something about Old Joe’s tale of woe doesn’t ring true. According to Old Joe:

“Putting the barral back in the stock would obscure the holes to a degree so only a solid inspection or knowledgable person on Enfields would detect them right away I had not the opertunity having had the gun a day or two so the pressure burned through the obscured holes in the stock and did a horrific job on my thumb…”

-- If this receiver did have a hole drilled in the chamber and the hole was covered up by the stock, would the gas “burn” a hole, or would the stock shatter? I think that the stock would shatter.

-- I also have a very hard time believing that a UK armorer would drill a hole in the receiver in order to DP the rifle and then cover it up with the stock.

-- The Enfield receiver has a gas port hole to bleed off the gas in the even of a ruptured case and primer failure. Wonder if the that was case and Old Joe had his thumb covering that hole?

-- Old Joe never mentioned if the bolt was serial numbered to the receiver. There is a reason why UK armories serial numbered the bolt to the receiver. On the Enfield rifle, the proof round helped to set the headspace. Additionally, the Enfield has a replaceable bolt head that effects headspace.

It is not uncommon to find rifles with mismatched bolts and/or bolt heads, which can lead to dangerous amounts of headspace. “Matching numbers” on the Enfield bolt and receiver are a good thing, but it always advisable to have the headspaces checked as the bolt head could very well have been misplaced with the wrong size bolt head.

I wish there were some pictures posted. Too many unanswered questions in my mind.

On a whim, I registered at Reloader’s Nest and read all of Old Joe’s 23 previous threads and posts. All are about his problems with reloading and military surplus firearms.....

[Charles]

On a whim, I registered at Reloader’s Nest and read all of Old Joe’s 23 previous threads and posts. All are about his problems with reloading and military surplus firearms.....

I suspect Old Joe doesn't HAVE problems, but IS the problem. Fools seldom have just one problem. They breed problems.

Perhaps I am being unkind, but my sympathy level for folks who are suffering the consequences of their own bad decision and lack of thinking is pretty low. I am very sympathetic and empathetic for folks who are true victums of bad luck or bad actions of others. 'But, when you bring it on yourself, I remember the the old Willy Nelson song.. I am not a believer in Hindu/Buddist Karma, but I am a beliver in Willy Nelson Karma.

Little old fashion Karma going round
Little sewing, little reaping
Little laughing, little weaping
Little old fashion Karma going down

[Ray Newman]

Charles: check your PM's!