Leverguns shouldn't have a safety

Dakota7 · Post by **Dakota7** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:58 pm

Had to shoot a cow that wasn't going to make it the other day so grabbed my brother's lastest purchase (Marlin Cowboy with the the 24 in. barrel in 357). Also grabbed a 38 special box of ammo. Loaded one, aimed, klick. Nothing, pulled the hammer back, klick, still nothing. Ejected the cartridge, no dented primer, nothing. Went and got a box of 357, loaded one, took aim, klick, nothing. Ejected, no dent. Pulled trigger and easyed the hammer down, but it doesn't go all the way down. Oh this thing has a safety!!!

Lever guns arent' supposed to have safetys!!!
Anyway no more sick and dying cow. Nice rifle thou even if it does have a safety.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:01 pm

Two cures for stupid safeties on Marlin lever guns.

A: Push safety to OFF, put small O-ring in the red grove on the left side of the safety button. Safety is deactivated till that O-ring is removed.

B: Install a Clyde Ludwig safety replacement kit. Works even better than the O-ring.

NOTE: My Marlin 1894 Cowboy came with an O-ring on the safety. That's how I know how good it works. But I put Ludwig's replacement kit in it anyway.

Joe

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:45 pm

Yea, I can't understand why the half cock worked for so many years but now it also has to have a safety. Oh yea, now I remember; lawsuits.

I plan on doing the Ludwig replacement when I get my gun back from Marlin (see my post why it is at Marlin if you are curious).

45-70- · Post by **45-70-** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:45 pm

I have to second Joe's "B" choice. Clyde is a good guy to deal with and his product looks nice once you install it.

I had something similar happen to me the other night with some new fangled semi auto pistol I got from my brother. I should have stuck with my revolver.

Mike-in-WV · Post by **Mike-in-WV** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:57 pm

My old Winchesters don't have the safety my newer one has but the new one also does not have the half cock safety either. Therefor I will use the safety it came with and I don't really feel that it should be as big a deal as some guy's are making of it. Just live with it! Now that I'm used to it it doesn't bother me a bit. If I happen to drop it on a rock and it hit's the hammer and causes the firing pin to set it off and someone gets hurt then I'm going to wish it was never removed. I also think that removing it and fixing the hole with a plug looks like something an armature gun smith would do and does nothing to make it look better, far from it!
Don't get wrong here, I don't like it anymore than any of you but it's just not a big deal or problem for me anymore then a safety on a shotgun, bolt action, semi auto or any other gun I own.

Mike

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:02 pm

Here we go again somebody popping in telling us to just "live with it". B.S. we don't have to live with it.

You live with if you want to, we'll fix the problem and be done with it.

So there! Tthhpppppppppppppt!

Joe

Mike-in-WV · Post by **Mike-in-WV** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:35 pm

OK Joe, When you figure out how to fix it right please let me know! I'm all for it. Until then I'll live with the safety and not the plug. If I was going to plug it I would use that idea someone had on here where he used the end of the shell.
While your fixen things please just bring back the old Winchester gun smiths and have them make em like they did in the good old day's. Now that would really be great! Mike

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:37 pm

Mike-in-WV wrote: OK Joe, When you figure out how to fix it right please let me know! I'm all for it. Until then I'll live with the safety and not the plug. If I was going to plug it I would use that idea someone had on here where he used the end of the shell.
While your fixen things please just bring back the old Winchester gun smiths and have them make em like they did in the good old day's. Now that would really be great! Mike

You're confusing the fix for the Winchester 94 and the Marlin 1894... Two different fixes.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:40 pm

I have a question. Does "half-cock work with six-guns as a sefety?

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:42 pm

Well at least it wasn't that big 10 point buck.

Mike-in-WV · Post by **Mike-in-WV** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:54 pm

Hobie, That may be. I just remember people talking about a plug for the safety on the Win 94 and then I remember seeing one of them fixed with the shell casing end. Don't know why you couldn't fix either one that way unless I'm missing something else. Mike

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:55 pm

The ONLY safety my leverguns have is half cock.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:02 pm

The best safety is between yer ears.

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:02 pm

Whadda tryin to say Joe?
An mine aint got no stinkin safety neither

hartman · Post by **hartman** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:08 pm

Mine all have safeties and I love them, It's located right next to my thumb, some times I even use it to pick my nose with.

Hartman

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:18 pm

The safety don`t bother me either.
If you ever end up in any kind of accident that takes you into court and the other side finds out you modified that safety, watch out, you are in for it.

I leave them alone and learn to work with it.
In many hundreds of hours of upland bird hunting I have never had a problem with a guns safety. It comes off without a thought when a bird gets up and I am all the time checking to see that it is on without thinking about or looking at it otherwise.
The same can be said for the safety on the levergun. learn to be aware of it and you will have no problem with it.
Like Joe said, an O-ring will lock it out.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:26 pm

[Two cures for stupid safeties on Marlin lever guns.]

Third cure: Don't buy one with a safety.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:46 pm

Chuck 100 yd wrote:The safety don`t bother me either.
If you ever end up in any kind of accident that takes you into court and the other side finds out you modified that safety, watch out, you are in for it.
I leave them alone and learn to work with it.
In many hundreds of hours of upland bird hunting I have never had a problem with a guns safety. It comes off without a thought when a bird gets up and I am all the time checking to see that it is on without thinking about or looking at it otherwise.
The same can be said for the safety on the levergun. learn to be aware of it and you will have no problem with it.
Like Joe said, an O-ring will lock it out.

Chuck, What you just said will happen no matter what kind of gun you have. A negligent discharge resulting in injury or damage and your lawyer bait. It won't mater if the safety is been retro fitted or not.
Marlin and Winchester lever guns did not have these stupid lawyer inspired safeties till around 82. I learned long before then how to handle a properly designed and built lever action rifle. I will fix them to suit myself and I"m not gonna wallow in paranoia about what MIGHT, happen some day, some time, some how. If it comes to that I'll junk them all and become a tree hugger.

Most bird shooters use shot guns with enclosed hammers. You cannot see if those things are loaded and cocked so you NEED a safety. You do not NEED one with an exposed hammer lever gun. Different things, Apples to Grapefruits.

Safety is between the ears of the shooter. We don't need stupid money grubbing corrupt lawyers to design guns. Leave that up to B. Tyler Henry, John Moses Browning and John Marlin, they did the job right the first time.

Joe

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:49 pm

Pete44ru wrote:[Two cures for stupid safeties on Marlin lever guns.]

Third cure: Don't buy one with a safety.

Pete,
I agree with you. But as time goes buy and more and more new variations are introduced that we want, and as the older ones get to be less and less available, we're kinda stuck.

Joe

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:18 pm

Rusty wrote:The best safety is between yer ears.

Oh oh.

Knew it. I'm in trouble now....

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:42 pm

J Miller wrote:

B: Install a Clyde Ludwig safety replacement kit.

Works even better than the O-ring. Joe

Does he make something for Winchesters, or do I have to become enlightened and sell those delightful X bolt W Levers for Marlins?

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:40 pm

Mike-in-WV wrote:Hobie, That may be. I just remember people talking about a plug for the safety on the Win 94 and then I remember seeing one of them fixed with the shell casing end. Don't know why you couldn't fix either one that way unless I'm missing something else. Mike

Because there is a commercial replacement for the Marlin safety but only Salvo is making such a replacement for the Winchester...

Yes, it can be done and is done but the replacement is not yet in production. He will make one for you if you ask. I think he's asking $35.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:01 am

Poohgyrr wrote:
J Miller wrote:

B: Install a Clyde Ludwig safety replacement kit.

Works even better than the O-ring. Joe

Does he make something for Winchesters, or do I have to become enlightened and sell those delightful X bolt W Levers for Marlins?

Not that I'm aware of. Like Hobie said above Salvo is making one for the Winchesters, but I don't know how many he's gonna make.

As far as trading off Winchesters for Marlins I wouldn't. I'd figure out a way to get rid of the safety.

Joe

jbm1968 · Post by **jbm1968** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:05 am

I just wish that if they are going to put a safety on them that it would not ruin the trigger!

It should be possible to use the old style Winchester trigger combined with the tang safety, maintaining the half cock and trigger pull with the ease of a tang safety. If I was King of Winchester that is what I would do if I HAD to add the safety.

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:45 am

J Miller wrote: As far as trading off Winchesters for Marlins I wouldn't. I'd figure out a way to get rid of the safety.
Joe

Yup, that's what I would prefer. I still have to swap out some rebounding hammers, and I PM'd Salvo.

Thanks.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:08 pm

Rusty wrote:The best safety is between yer ears.

I tried using earwax but it keeps melting in the hot Hawaiian sun.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:39 pm

Hi Poohgyrr, I was playing on my lath this past weekend and the motor is giving me some trouble. Looks like I wont be able to make any fillers until I can get it fixed.

cas · Post by **cas** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:12 pm

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:16 pm

The time I DO like the safety is when I come in like the other day, cold and sleety, stiff fingers, fogged up glasses, and need to unload a magazine full of would-be coyote killers I didn't get to use. I know all I have to do is be careful, and I won't even need to chamber a round as I cycle them through, and I won't have my finger on the trigger, etc., but I HAVE had times where I thought I felt another round drop into my chilly hand, and before I realized it I'd chambered/unchambered a round, which I know should still be safe, and the gun's pointed at a concrete block wall, etc., but I'd still not mind a safety ON at that point. Same situation happens if coming out of woods and need to walk down a public road, or go in a car, and have to unload the whole #%^@&# tube.

Once I get used to a gun I've not had the problem of a 'click' when hunting due to forgetting to slip off a safety, but I suppose if I missed a big buck due to that I'd be thinking about what a tube of epoxy (or an O-ring

) could do for me.

Of course, if the Marlin had the cool loading/unloading port in the tube on their 44's, like some of the Puma's and some of the .32 Marlins do - that would eliminate my biggest reason to want that safety. And definitely the Marlin people did a better job than the Rossi/Puma people did - their safety doesn't even look like it would be strong enough to work or not fall off after 100 rounds.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:52 pm

Dakota7 wrote: Lever guns arent' supposed to have safetys!!!

Remove said beast and be done with it.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:03 pm

Don't some states require that a gun have a safety? I'm pretty sure they do.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:33 pm

Swampman wrote:Don't some states require that a gun have a safety? I'm pretty sure they do.

Perhaps. But I don't live in one of 'em!

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:17 am

I also like having the safety when unloading rounds. Hate to have one go off when I'm concentrating on making sure they fall into my hat.

kaschi · Post by **kaschi** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:29 pm

Who is Salvo and what sort of parts does he make for the Winchester? I need a cure for my Winchester's ongoing illness called safetyitis!

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:38 pm

salvo wrote:Hi Poohgyrr, I was playing on my lath this past weekend and the motor is giving me some trouble. Looks like I wont be able to make any fillers until I can get it fixed.

Thats me, but like the last post, my lath is down and I'm not sure how fast I can fix it.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:17 pm

Scott,

Could you measure one you've made and do a schematic with the dimensions marked? That would make it easier for someone to make one.

Joe

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:46 pm

People say that the safety is required by the lawyers, but I don't understand that. I own a Henry Repeating Arms Co. .44 Mag lever rifle, and as far as I can tell, it does not have a safety. Maybe there's something integral to the design that I do not know about that functions in some way as a safety. But I do know one thing: If the hammer's back and I pull the trigger, the rifle goes BANG. And, quite a loud bang, too! So, if they can sell their rifles (made in NY State for goodness sake) without a safety, then I think ANYONE can. If they want to.

For that matter, my Sig P239 and my S&W 642 don't have safeties either. If I pull the trigger, those guns go BANG.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:55 pm

Joe I'll take some measurements, the location of the locking screw should be marked when it is installed in a rifle.
I am not sure how to measure the angle? I just used my rifle to fit the first one and copied it on the extra ones I made for a few members here.

So if any one wants to explain how to measure the angle/degree I'll do it.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:03 pm

Seems like it would be an easy and responsible thing to do to spend at least a token several moments becoming familiar with the operation of your firearm before you use it, lawyer-safety or no.

I believe that this is one of the basic tenets of firearms safety.

Whether you make the choice to alter your firearm or not is entirely at your discretion, but don't blame a properly functioning inanimate object because you are a dum-bass.

General discussion, not aimed at anyone.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:09 pm

Well I would hate to be the grand dum-bass.

I pulled the pictures for you FWiedner

cas · Post by **cas** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:16 pm

FWiedner wrote:Seems like it would be an easy and responsible thing to do to spend at least a token several moments becoming familiar with the operation of your firearm before you use it, lawyer-safety or no.

I don't think that's the issue. The issue is having spent a lifetime with many other similar guns that don't have them. I think making them all the same is safer.

FWIW.. I'm always a bit surprised when I get customers at the range with new guns they don't know how to open or load, or how it works in the slightest. I"m always there to help and answer questions, but I have to ask them.. "Didn't you read the instructions?" I mean it's not like learning to use your iPod by playing with it. These things can kill you.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:04 am

cas wrote:I don't think that's the issue. The issue is having spent a lifetime with many other similar guns that don't have them. I think making them all the same is safer.

Just a reminder of where this thread started:

Had to shoot a cow that wasn't going to make it the other day so grabbed my brother's lastest purchase (Marlin Cowboy with the the 24 in. barrel in 357). Also grabbed a 38 special box of ammo. Loaded one, aimed, klick. Nothing, pulled the hammer back, klick, still nothing. Ejected the cartridge, no dented primer, nothing. Went and got a box of 357, loaded one, took aim, klick, nothing. Ejected, no dent. Pulled trigger and easyed the hammer down, but it doesn't go all the way down. Oh this thing has a safety!!!

Pretty sure it is the issue in this instance...

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:50 am

Using a Firearm
Safety Rules

Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

Know how to use the gun safely.
Before handling a gun, learn how it operates. Know its basic parts, how to safely open and close the action and remove any ammunition from the gun or magazine. Remember, a gun's mechanical safety device is never foolproof. Nothing can ever replace safe gun handling.

Be sure the gun is safe to operate.
Just like other tools, guns need regular maintenance to remain operable. Regular cleaning and proper storage are a part of the gun's general upkeep. If there is any question concerning a gun's ability to function, a knowledgeable gunsmith should look at it.

Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.
Only BBs, pellets, cartridges or shells designed for a particular gun can be fired safely in that gun. Most guns have the ammunition type stamped on the barrel. Ammunition can be identified by information printed on the box and sometimes stamped on the cartridge. Do not shoot the gun unless you know you have the proper ammunition.

Wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.
Guns are loud and the noise can cause hearing damage. They can also emit debris and hot gas that could cause eye injury. For these reasons, shooting glasses and hearing protectors should be worn by shooters and spectators.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:32 pm

As I mentioned earlier, the Henry Repeating Arms Co. lever rifles do not have a cross bolt safety or a tang safety. They may incorporate other features that help to prevent accidental discharge, but if the lever is cocked, and the chamber has a loaded round, pulling the trigger will make ht erifle fire. There is no user-selectable switch, button, or other device that can be changed from "fire" to "safe". These rifles are made in Brooklyn. I reject, absolutely, the notion that the new Mossberg lever rifles or any other lever rifles "must" have either a cross bolt safety or a tang safety since it is simply untrue.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:46 pm

JimT wrote:Using a Firearm
Safety Rules
Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

The problem with these kind of absolutes is that they are, alas, not absolutely true. You can not divorce common sense from the safe use of firearms, though I kno you were not intending to suggest that we do so. But you can not substitute rote memorization of "safety rules" for common sense either. As a physician, I can think of numerous over-the-counter or prescription drugs which some shooters should definitely take before handling firearms or their handling of the firearms would be more UNsafe without them taking their medication. Easiest example would be a guy on blood sugar controllers, or a guy on seizure controlling meds, etc. But there are numerous examples that I cxould fill this page with where it would be unsafe to shoot a firearm if that particular medication was OT taken by someone for whom it was medically indicated.

As for alcohol, well, there is common sense and there is hysteria and maybe something in between. My shooting club forbids alcohol on the property and forbids members from shooting if they are intoxicated. So far, so good with me. But I refuse to believe that one beer would make the average beer-drinking American adult male automatically unsafe when it comes to operating firearms. Again, absolutist rules are not a substitute for common sense.

cas · Post by **cas** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:03 pm

When I got my Guide Gun my feeling about the safety was "I've never had one before. I've never needed one before. So I'll just ignore this one." But I too kept getting the "click instead of a bang" even though I never intentionally put the safety on. It wasn't that I was forgetting it was on, it was that it was getting put on accidentally through normal handling and use. (which leads me to wonder if I were left handed, would I have been intentionally knocking it off all the time, instead of on?)

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:36 pm

ursavus.elemensis wrote:
JimT wrote:Using a Firearm
Safety Rules
Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.
...You can not divorce common sense from...

Actually, (the following is somewhat "tongue-in-cheek"), the concept you're referring to as "common sense" really needs to be referred to as "UNCOMMON GOOD SENSE." For nowadays, at least in my experience, "common sense," as defined in the dictionary:

comÂ·mon
Pronunciation: \ˈkÃ¤-mən\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English commun, from Anglo-French, from Latin communis â€” more at mean
Date: 13th century
1 a: of or relating to a community at large : public <work> b: known to the community <common>
2 a: belonging to or shared by two or more individuals or things or by all members of a group <a> <buried> b: belonging equally to two or more mathematical entities <triangles> c: having two or more branches <common>
3 a: occurring or appearing frequently : familiar <a> b: of the best known or most frequently seen kind â€”used especially of plants and animals <the> c: vernacular 2 <common>
4 a: widespread general <common> b: characterized by a lack of privilege or special status <common> c: just satisfying accustomed criteria : elementary <common>

sense
Pronunciation: \ˈsen(t)s\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French sen, sens sensation, feeling, mechanism of perception, meaning, from Latin sensus, from sentire to perceive, feel; perhaps akin to Old High German sinnan to go, strive, Old English sith journey â€” more at send
Date: 14th century
1: a meaning conveyed or intended : import signification; especially : one of a set of meanings a word or phrase may bear especially as segregated in a dictionary entry
2 a: the faculty of perceiving by means of sense organs b: a specialized function or mechanism (as sight, hearing, smell, taste, or touch) by which an animal receives and responds to external or internal stimuli c: the sensory mechanisms constituting a unit distinct from other functions (as movement or thought)
3: conscious awareness or rationality â€”usually used in plural <finally>
4 a: a particular sensation or kind or quality of sensation <a> b: a definite but often vague awareness or impression <felt> <a> c: a motivating awareness <a> d: a discerning awareness and appreciation <her>
5: consensus <the>
6 a: capacity for effective application of the powers of the mind as a basis for action or response : intelligence b: sound mental capacity and understanding typically marked by shrewdness and practicality; also : agreement with or satisfaction of such power <this>

Therefore, using the highlited sections, it seems that "common sense" should be reserved for use when one really means "sheer stupidity."

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:01 pm

"As I mentioned earlier, the Henry Repeating Arms Co. lever rifles do not have a cross bolt safety or a tang safety. They may incorporate other features that help to prevent accidental discharge, but if the lever is cocked, and the chamber has a loaded round, pulling the trigger will make ht erifle fire. There is no user-selectable switch, button, or other device that can be changed from "fire" to "safe". These rifles are made in Brooklyn."

The new so called Henry rifles are nice looking. They are just too heavy and much too expensive. The rimfire versions are nice looking and reasonably priced but cheaply made and finished.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:30 pm

I'm not saying that you should want to buy one or not, but the Henry rifles are made in the U.S.A., sold in the U.S.A., and used in the U.S.A. and they do not have a safety switch/knob/button/lever. They don't have a user-selectable safety. Hence, it IS possible for a manufacturer to make and sell a rifle that does not have a safety. So, whether anyone wants to buy a Henry or not, folks need to stop parroting the incorrect line that rifles all must have a safety because of lawyers.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:28 pm

All of my "safetied" Marlins wear Mr. Ludwig's invention. 1886.

Leverguns shouldn't have a safety

Leverguns shouldn't have a safety

Re: Leverguns shouldn't have a safety