Advice: Lever guns for my girls

[cableguy]

Hi,

I grew up in Pennsylvania hunting whitetails with a lever action. I now live in Washington, and two significant developments have just occurred. My wife is interested in hunting next year (and given the choice between bolt or lever action, she wants a lever action. Yes!) AND I found out my 8 yr old daughter will be old enough to hunt next year as well (in PA I had to wait until I was 12).

So, this has raised a couple of issues that need solving. Mainly, what gun and what caliber?

I hunt with a Marlin 336BL that is 37" long and weighs 7.5 lbs, chambered for 30-30. My wife recently held and fired it and thought it was too heavy and kicked too hard. Therefore, I am thinking of getting her a lever action in 44 Rem Mag. I know this is a very powerful handgun round but it MUST be less powerful than a 30-30 rifle round, right? Can anyone speak to this? I have never fired a 44 Mag rifle and have no idea how it would kick. I want my wife to be comfortable and look forward to practicing with her rifle. Of course, alternatives would be 45 colt and 357 mag but I think if she enjoys hunting, like I hope, she would even be interested in hunting bear eventually. Any thoughts? The gun that I am thinking of for her would either be the Marlin 1894 deluxe (37.5" and 6.5 lbs) or the 1894 SS (37.5" and 6lbs). Or there is the Rossi M92 carbine with 16" barrel only weighing 5lbs but I would want to put a scope on it to give her an advantage since she has no hunting experience and little gun experience and I'm not sure you can do this with a Rossi.

Now for my daughter. She is only 8 and I have similar concerns. I am thinking nothing bigger than 45 Colt for her BUT I have no idea if this would be an effective deer cartridge, or waht the recoil in a rifle in a rifle would be like. Anyone with experience on this? Additionally, the only "suitable" rifle I can find for my daighter is the Rossi M92 carbine with a short 16" barrel that only weighs 5lbs. It seems like it would be a great fit for her.

Here are my itemized questions:
1. Would a 44 mag rifle kick less/more than a 30-30 rifle?
2. Max distance for taking deer with 44 mag rifle?
3. Would the recoil from a 45 colt be too much for an 8 yr old girl?
4. Is 45 colt an adequate cartridge for deer? If so, max distance?
5. I know Marlins are great, but what is the deal with Rossi? I have heard of problems (mainly with the 454 casull round that I am personally interested in )

I am excited for my gals to begin their hunting adventures next year and really want to choose the right caliber and gun for both of them. Thanks in advance for your help and advice!

-will

[Blaine]

My two cents is .357s for both. 158gr JSPs will take out deer with a good hit, and do not kick. The 1894C, and the Rossi 92 clones are a handy size. Move up to 180gr if you desire a lot more thump.

[AJMD429]

I'd get a lever action in .357, vs. .44 Mag, since it is easier to get milder loads for, and yet perfectly capable of killing a deer. Stepping up to the .44 Mag adds much noise and recoil, unless you handload .44-Special-level loads (and the factory .44 special round noses aren't very good hunting rounds), and yet doesn't allow all that much more latitude in shot placement.

For a kid, I'd get a .22 LR or .22 WMR levergun for LOTS of FUN practicing, first. She can shoot the same levergun Mom shoots, and for that matter, mom might want to get some range time with the .22 LR/WMR as well.

The biggest mistakes in getting people ready to shoot hunting calibers is first - not having them gain lots of practice and confidence with quiet, low-recoil guns first, and second - getting too powerful a gun. Shot placement trumps kinetic energy every time!

For the .357 Mag, gradually working up from .38 special loads to .357 125 gr then 158 gr then 170-180 gr will be a good way to get to the limit of their shooting desires gradually.

Good hearing protection helps well.

Sight-wise, find out whether they need a scope, red-dot, or aperture, and equip both guns with what they do best with.

Marlins are of course easier to scope, and easier to aperture-sight usually, than Rossi's.

The Marlin 39A's are to me barrel-heavy, but see what they think.
Henry makes a .22 LR and .22 Mag that are lighter up front and slick guns.
Ruger makes .22 LR and .22 Mag and .17 HMR but not all still in production.

[AJMD429]

My two cents is .357s for both. 158gr JSPs will take out deer with a good hit, and do not kick. The 1894C, and the Rossi 92 clones are a handy size. Move up to 180gr if you desire a lot more thump.

I guess great (and twisted) minds think alike...

Thanks for the PM/trigger stuff by the way...

[cableguy]

For a kid, I'd get a .22 LR or .22 WMR levergun for LOTS of FUN practicing, first. She can shoot the same levergun Mom shoots, and for that matter, mom might want to get some range time with the .22 LR/WMR as well.

The biggest mistakes in getting people ready to shoot hunting calibers is first - not having them gain lots of practice and confidence with quiet, low-recoil guns first, and second - getting too powerful a gun. Shot placement trumps kinetic energy every time!

I completely agree with you on this. Shhh, my daughter is getting a Henry youth .22 for Christmas... I was planning on buying her the deer rifle as a 2nd grade "graduation present" in the spring.

[Rusty]

+3 on the .357 Mag. In fact if you go to Graybeards ouutdoor forums and scroll down to the section called "ask Veral" you'll see what Veral Smith has to say about the .357 shooting 180 grain bullets. It's his wife's personal go to rifle. Loaded with a 180 gr. cast bullet it can be loaded to a level close to the .35 Remington.

[Dave]

It has been my experience that 44 mag carbines kick more than a 30-30 because of the heavier bullet. You also have to hold them very firm since 240 grains of love will move the gun alot. If I were in your position I would choose the 30-30 for my wife and load it with 130 or 125 grain deer bullets. Those loads are plenty and kick very little. Once she has a little more trigger time you may can bump her up to a 150. If she was shooting in a T shirt the gun will seem to kick less when she is wearing a coat.

For the youngster I would go the same route except get a Handi Rifle in 30-30. They are not particularly light unless you can find an older H&R version with the tapered barrel. Any gun will seem heavy to her at her age so though. At 8 she might be better suited to tagging along this year than shooting a deer. She has lots of time.

I have had various Rossi carbines over the years. They run hot and cold and are not drilled for a peep sight from the factory. The Marlin is a better choice. They are drilled and can be scoped. Short barreled carbines launching heavy bullets can be a booger to hold onto and since guns shoot to recoil consistent form is important with them. The 30-30 would likely be more forgiving. Choosing the 30-30 would also keep life simple with everyone using the same round.

[rjohns94]

92 .357 worked over by Steve alias NKJ. you won't regret it.

[gamekeeper]

.357 Mag would be my choice for Deer and a .22LR for plenty of practice.
The last thing you want to do is over gun your daughter.

[336A]

I agree with the gentlemen above go with a .357 mag you won't be disapointed. Just be sure that you stick with 158gr and heavier bullets for hunting.

[Old Savage]

Put me in the 357 camp.

[86er]

Try the 30-30 w/ Rem Managed Recoil or Federal Low Recoil. My 5 and 4 yr old boys can shoot them and they're not even putting the stock on their shoulder (too long). The Managed Recoil is a 125 gr softpoint going 2000 fps. I kicks less than a standard 357 mag cartridge in the respective rifles. Of course the 30-30 platform is going to be heavier so your wife and daughter may not be able to handle the weight. Griff has generously loaned us a Puma 357 rifle and NKJ sent a short stock. My boys are shooting 190 grain 38 Special WFNGC at 900 fps with no problems. That'll kill a deer out to 50 yds or so. My advice is to let the ladies decide by letting them try several options. Don't decide for them.

[COSteve]

Look at the chart below and you'll note that the .44 mag in a levergun actually has more recoil energy than a 170grn 30-30. As others have said, if she wants to hunt with a levergun, then your wife is really looking for something in the .357 mag range, however, that will restrict her to under 100yd shots at deer sized animals if it's a legal cartridge in WA.


Cartridge (Wb@MV)...........Rifle Weight...Recoil energy...Recoil velocity

.30-30 Win. (150 at 2400).........7.5...............10.6...............9.5
.30-30 Win. (160 at 2400).........7.5...............12.7..............10.5
.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200).........7.5...............11.0...............9.7

.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1760)......7.5...............11.2...............9.8

.357 Mag. (158 at 1650)............7.0................4.7...............6.6

[madman4570]

Model BLR Lightweight `81
Caliber 308 Win. (try the Remington 125gr Managed recoil loads,they have around 10 ft lbs kinetic energy)
Weight 6 lbs. 8 oz.

You will find as the wife shoots a tad more that type kick will be nothing to her.And if she wants more power the .308 can do a lot later on if need be.

As for the daughter I would get her a Henry carbine .22LR lever and let her use that with you plinking a couple years before the deer thing! JMO?

You will find the women can handle that type recoil very easily.My wife is 5'3"(102lbs) and shoots her 6.5 lb .243 Win(has same recoil with regular 100gr loads as those .308 managed loads)all day long and says she likes it because it doesnt kick)

[Alan Wood]

I agree with those saying not to go with the 44 magnum carbine for this. My 94 ranger (cheap stock trapper) beet me up every time I took it to the range till I fit a recoil pad. If legal in Washington I would be looking at a 357 carbine if I were in your shoos.
Alan Wood

[Griff]

I gotta advise against the .44Mag in a levergun if the std. .30-30 recoil is too much. My mdl 94 in .44Mag was a much stiffer recoiler than the same rifle in .30-30.

Can't argue with either a .357 or the Managed Recoil .30-30 ammo.

[rodeo kid]

My thoughts would be a Marlin 1894 in .357 Mag for your wife. Easy to scope if you need to and she could start out with .38sp and work up to .357 for hunting. For your daughter I would get a Henry .22lr youth lever Carbine and let her shoot it for at least six months before trying the Marlin. I don't mean to be rude or think I know everthing, but I am flabbergasted that folks are suggesting starting an 8yr old girl on a 30-30 or .357 rifle. I just can't imagine it. To me all kids should start with a .22lr. Just my 2cents. God Bless.

[Pop Watts]

Here is an Australian opinion.

Firstly, good on you for getting your girls interested in lever action hunting!

I have a few different 30-30's and only one 44mag (a Browning B92) but that 44 mag kicks a lot harder than any of my 30-30's. It has a lot to do with physics and actions having an equal and opposite reaction and the 44 mag launching a much heavier projectile and therefore producing more recoil. Blah blah blah.

I would buy your daughter a lever action .22 and your wife a lever action 357 Mag. Get both rifles as similar as possible in weight and style and probably more importantly, get the same sighting system on both guns. I am not too proud to say that I like to put a scope on lever actions, so scope the rifles if it gives the girls more confidence. Now Mum and Daughter can both practice on the 22 and I am sure with some trigger time at the range you little girl will be able to handle the 357.

As far as trapper length (16" and under barrels) goes, they are very noisey to shoot and can also give a much larger muzzle flash which can cause an inexperienced shooter to develope a flinch, not a good thing. So my suggestion would be to avoid short barrels - for now.

I would like to see your wife get a 30-30, but the cartridge length of the 30-30 over the 357 means the gun does get bigger and heavier. Recoil of the 30-30 with reduced loads would not be more than a 357, but a 357 rifle generally will be a little shorter and lighter.

Just my opinion.

Too bad you are not in Australia, we could go out and have a shot out of all of them and see what everyone preferred.

Pop.

[Hobie]

My two cents is .357s for both. 158gr JSPs will take out deer with a good hit, and do not kick. The 1894C, and the Rossi 92 clones are a handy size. Move up to 180gr if you desire a lot more thump.

I was going to say the same thing.

[gundownunder]

I can't imagine a grown woman, even one of light stature finding a .357 uncomfortable to shoot but the .44 and 30-30 can be if fully loaded.
I would definitely start the child on a couple of years of rabbit hunting or similar, because once she kills something she can't give it its life back and killing a deer is a pretty dramatic experience and if introduced too early may put her off hunting for life.

[Ysabel Kid]

Welcome aboard! Another plug in for the .357. I don't think you can go wrong there. Only problem you are going to have is everyone fighting over the same rifle!

[Arminius]

+ 1 on the .357 ( Rossi - best except for the sighting issue )

+ 1 on the .22 ( get Stingers later )

+ 1 on similarity of the guns

Now my suggestions:

---> receiver sight ( Williams FP ) with .125 apertures

------>> GET A RECOIL PAD!!

Don´t laugh - I am 182 cm and more Kilograms than I like. I am a certified Masochist for recoil, my last session was around 20 rds 12 Ga Slugs lightweight S x S´s BENCHED at 20 m ... ouch!

But that lowly thutty thutty from a 20" Mod 94 may just kick my shoulder in an unpleasant HARD and SHARP KICK at an extremely sensitive place. My 9.3 x 62 with a THICK recoil pad shoves gently, in comparison.

There is no "over derecoiling", so get a good pad!! Before the Ladies shoot the guns first time! Shorten the stocks to their likings at this opportunity.

Hermann

[COSteve]

Like most, I say get a Rossi .357mag for the wife, start her on mild 38spl loads and let her work up to hunting level 357mag. If she wants better sights, get her a receiver peep and 1/16 bead front sight for it. They are easy to install and the accuracy increase is significant over the std barrel mounted ramp sight.

Your 8 yd old is too small for the Rossi or a .357mag even loaded down with mild 38spls. I'd suggest a Henry carbine (H001) in 22lr to let her get the feel of it and learn the basic skills of firearms handling, shooting, and general safe use. You can D&T the Henry's receiver cover for a Williams FP 94/36 receiver sight too if she wants one.

They are a cinch to mount as the cover is an alloy and comes off easily. You need the D&T version so that you can use it with the std front sight as a higher one (needed for the receiver grove mount) isn't offered. BTW, you better have another Rossi .357mag in the closet waiting for the little one when she's ready for it because you're not going to get the Rossi out of your wife's hands, even on a bet.

[2X22]

Right after we were married in 1978 I bought my wife a Marlin in .357. It has been the only rifle she shoots, she doesn't think she should mess with success

When my daughter was old enough to ask for her own rifle, she wanted an OLD one. So I purchased a '94 Winchester made in 1906 in 30-30 that had a terrible bore and had it bored out to 38-55. 280gr cast at 1300fps are very gentle but knock deer down like nobodies business.

2x22

[quietman]

Per Pop's suggestion, try some 30-30 reduced loads. You also might want to get a slip on recoil pad. Most women have less weight, less muscle in the shoulder, and smaller bones in the shoulder. So, the preceived recoil is more for them than for an adult male. As for the rifle being heavy, the 1894c is only 1/2 lb lighter than your 336BL.

Here's a link to the remington reduced loads. They call them managed recoil. Take a look at the reviews.
http://www.cabelas.com/fryprod-0/produc ... .uts.shtml
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=330519

You STILL might want to get a 357 as you can use it for your daughter and work your wife up to using a 30-30 in steps. I'd plan on shortening the stock on a 357 and putting a recoil pad on it for your daughter. At eight years old, even 6 lbs of recoil can typically be 7 to 10 percent of an 8 yr old girls body weight. To many women and young girls have been turned off to shooting and hunting because their spouses / dad's expect them to "tough it out" instead of making it a pleasant experience for them.

Per other's suggestions, start your daughter and your wife with a 22. THEN go to a centerfire cartridge. Good options are a Henry youth model 22 or a Marlin 795 because of the size and weight. You can increase the length of pull on a Henry youth for your wife by using a slip on recoil pad, and then pull it off for your daughter to use.

Good luck!!!