Pressure signs in 45 Colt lever gun?

[bluesman423]

The information for a max load in a 45 Colt levergun are all over the place and are very inconsistant.

So, I began loading for my EMF Hertford 92 with a 24" barrel, looking for maximum.

With Starline brass, WLP primers, 2400 and a Hornady 300 grain XTP I started at 13 grains and went up. Way up. I am currently at 18.0 grains and have absolutley no signs of pressure that I can detect. I have seen max listed as high as 20.0 grains by Paco.

What say you guys about the max in this rifle? I want to find the top and then back down a little.

No offense, but I am not interested in how a 300 grain bullet at 1000 fps will put down anything in North America. I want to know the max.

Thanks!

[Griff]

Depends greatly on what rifle you're talking about. I have no qualms using .44RM equivalent loads in my .45Colt Rossi '92, but keep my loads in the 1860 Henry or 1873 at Colt SAA levels.

Sure you could keep going... but why? Destruction testing isn't advised. As you've found, I haven't found any reliable, data I trust for .45Colt in actions other than the Colt SAA or the Ruger Blackhawk. The toggle link clones are about Colt SAA level strength, since they don't really "lock up." The Rossi 1892 clone can easily handle loads considered HOT for the Ruger BH. Actual pressure data above the Ruger level loads has not been done. Just like you'll find 3 different levels of recommended max loads for the .45-70, so too may we have 3 different levels for the .45Colt. Two are listed now... I haven't read of anyone doing actual pressure readings at the levels the Rossi 1892 copy is potentially capable of handling.

[Hobie]

Want to know the max, test to destruction... That's the smart alec response your post invites.

What say you guys about the max in this rifle? I want to find the top and then back down a little.

No offense, but I am not interested in how a 300 grain bullet at 1000 fps will put down anything in North America. I want to know the max.

You REALLY need a manual or two. It is reasonable to expect these guns to be able to handle loads intended for the Ruger New Model Blackhawks, i.e. attaining about 35K psi. I don't use 2400 in mine. I use 23 gr. of H110 under either the Hornady 300 gr. XTP-MAG or the Sierra 300 gr. FP. My gun is like yours, a Rossi made Hartford. Barrel length isn't important to discussions of pressure.

You can also read Paco's article. However, one thing you should never do is trust data from a bunch of unknowns on a forum/chat room. Get a manual, read it, and get educated.

PS - 300 gr. at 1590+ fps WILL do for anything in North America, it did when it came out of a .45-90 Winchester and it will out of the .45 Colt...

[bluesman423]

I have two manuals and both stop long before the level I have attained. Also read Paco's article and it is the one showing super hot loads for a later model 92.

I have been creeping up the ladder on my loads and was a little concerned about the level I am at. Don't have a chrono to test velocity but I am sure it is up there.

I have only worked up loads in a bolt gun and handguns from revolvers and semi autos to Contenders before and they exhibited definite pressure signs at or near maximun. Bolt and locking lugs/ recesses do not show excessive pressure signs.

So far I do not have case head expansion problems, cratered or flattened primers or hard extraction. Are there other pressure signs I should look for? Or will this levergun simply let go all at once?

And I apologize if I hurt any one's feelings. I am not trying to be a smart alec. Just looking for specific information because my knowledge is limited on leverguns.

[Pete44ru]

Time to trade up to a .454 Casull Model 92..................

.

[AJMD429]

I think the .45 Colt has several problems in the rifle that contribute to the original poster's situation and question:

• It is a very 'old' cartridge, so has the usual 'modern gun vs. vintage gun' load issues
  It is old enough to have black powder level smokeless data, even
  In fact it is so 'old' that some manuals have to caution against using balloon-head cases
  It is not originally a rifle cartridge
  It is often used with sloppy chambers for better feeding
  Even the modern guns vary in strength across a wide spectrum

So...I don't have the answers the OP is in search of, but have noticed the same huge variation. If a person only has a 92 and a Ruger revolver to load for, I see no reason not to "seek the maximum" and then back down a couple notches - after all that's exactly what all the loading manuals basically do - they work up a 'maximum allowable' load, then back down to one that isn't dangerously under-charged, but would be safe in a worst-case tight-chamber, oversized-bullet, hotter-primer situation, and have the reloaders start there.

The problem is - 'which loading manual, and which load...?'

I do think my Lyman reloading manual lists "rifle" loads for the .45 Colt, at pressure levels appropriate for modern guns, but it may be a different manual I'm thinking of.

[Wind]

Hey there bluesman423 -- Wow! After about 140 years of development, another pioneer steps up to the plate. When your rifle looks something like this guys, back off at least a half a grain...I'm just glad I wasn't the RO standing behind him. Wind

[bluesman423]

Well Wind, been there done that. On purpose. Don't have the inclination or the funds to try it anymore.

But thanks for letting me know I am not crazy, there are others out there that are curious where the edge really is.

[gundownunder]

I would love to know where the edge is too.
I'm just glad its your face and hands and gun that are finding it for me

Seriously, the 45LC case has 18% more capacity than the 44 and at 18gr you are loaded at 13% more powder than the 44 max load with the same powder and bullet weight pushing against 4% more thrust surface. You probably haven't reached your max load yet, but if the first pressure sign you get is half the action coming back and smashing your face in, you might not like it.
Just be careful too that you take into account ambient temperature during testing, as I believe that 2400 is temperature sensitive and a rise during testing when you get to peak load could take pressures up significantly. You could lower pressure further by switching to a 300gr cast lead bullet. I wouldn't think you would reach enough velocity to cause leading with a hard cast bullet.

More grunt is a useful thing, otherwise the 45-70 would be a little used, obsolete cartridge, but what has happened to your accuracy as you have gone up from the start load. Is it still the same or better, or worse? More power is useless if you can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Keep us posted

[.45colt]

Several years ago I hotrodded my Win/USRAC legacy .45colt. Paco's top load for the Keith 260gr with 27gr of 296 ran 1850fps thru My chrony and punched nice holes through 3/8 steel plate. I tried Pacos top load for the 92 (worked up) with Reloader 7 with the 260gr and could not achive the velociety Paco states.even with a full case of RE7. I even bought a primer pocket reamer and loaded large rifle primers in the Colt.no go..... 23gr of H110 under a 325gr LBT lead bullet shot 1500fps. I don't rember any pressure signs or problems at all.
Lord knows what would be the max in a strong 92. but I listened the advise from being here for ten years and got a 45/70. Good Luck. Stay Safe.

[J Miller]

bluesman423,

If you want some smoking loads that are very close, if not at max, they are at 30,000 CUP, go on eBay or Amazon or where ever, and find a copy of Hodgdons #26.

That book has loads in it for the .45 Colt you will not find any where else. They are listed as being tested in a hand gun length test barrel, but they work very well in rifles. I've tried them in both my Win 94AE and Marlin 1894.

Some of them are unpleasant to shoot.

Joe

[gundownunder]

I have seen max listed as high as 20.0 grains by Paco.

warning. I just re-read Pacos article on the 45 colt and he states that his load with 20gr of 2400 is with a cast load not a jacketed load. Pressures will be different.

[earlmck]

Bluesman, I like your spirit. Good to know what a top load for that bullet is in you rifle. Since that's essentially the same rifle that Rossi chambers for 454 Casull, it'll handle the pressure, and it will be the brass which will tell you when you have hit top levels. I'd ease on up about .3 grains at a time until I felt the first sign of sticky extraction (which is a brass thing), back off 5% and call it max. But I've been accused to being a bit crazy, so that may not be good advice, just what this kid would do. I've got the m92 in the Casull, so have loading data to look at, and with mine I got that "slightly sticky extraction" indicator a bit before I hit the top load shown by Hodgdon.

If Paco was using a 300 grain cast bullet with 20 grains of powder, you are not far off his pressures right now with a jacketed bullet and 18 grains. So you'll be getting there before long and then you'll know...

[bluesman423]

Paco also used the same 20 grains 2400 with a 325 grain JHP and JSP.

I really appreciate all of your help, guys. Lots of good information.

FYI, I am just playing right now with the powder and bullets I have that will work with the 45 Colt. I recenlty aquired this rifle and it is my second favorite in my 40 plus years of shooting and hunting. I am officially hooked on leverguns after ignoring them for quite a few years.

Ultimately, I will be looking for a 1200-1400 fps 300 grain cast boolit load. Like I said, just playing right now and I have always been one to want to know my limits.

Another FYI, my most accurate load was at 15.0 grains, then they opened up but the second most accurate load came at 18.0 grains and they have been getting smaller above 17.0 grains. I have been going up .2 gr after I hit 17.0.

Guess I probably should call it quits but don't know if I will. Please wish me well in making the best decision. Should I post my results after testing or am I possibly leading someone on a path towards injury?

[2X22]

Hey there bluesman423 -- Wow! After about 140 years of development, another pioneer steps up to the plate. When your rifle looks something like this guys, back off at least a half a grain...I'm just glad I wasn't the RO standing behind him. Wind

Oh my! An incident like that would give me the Blues, man............

Sorry

2x22

[gundownunder]

Should I post my results after testing or am I possibly leading someone on a path towards injury?

I would like to know the result, from a purely curious standpoint only. I don't yet own a 45LC and if I did I would develop my own loads.
You would not lead anyone on a path to injury, only their own stupidity would do that.
If you post the result, a big red disclaimershould be included, the same as Paco and other writers do with the articles they post.

[Catshooter]

blues,

I agree that the 45 Colt in a lever is the best thing since sliced bread. I too fairly ignored the lever for many years. But then I saw the light and lately I've noticed that my battery is becoming more lever and less anything else.

Case head expansion is usually the best method for watching presssures. But not with the Colt because the factory loads only to the old levels.

Although, one could look at some of the loads from some specialtly loaders. Aren't there some running a 335 grain at around 1200? Maybe Buffalo Bore or Garretts? I'm not sure as I rarely buy factory ammo. If there are loads with ballistics in the area you're looking for you could then use the head expansion data for your work.

I can't help you with any personal info as I don't go that high, sorry.

Good luck!


Cat

[Kansas Ed]

IF, I was to push the limit, I would try and address the brass issues first. I would trim down 454 brass to 45LC dimensions and try using that first...although the diameter of the 454 is slightly smaller than the 45LC to begin with, so this may only work if you have a tight chamber. I would think that loose primer pockets will be the first indication of pressure issues in the 45 LC brass. And personally, anything pushing past hot .44 Mag velocities I would start getting yancy.

Ed

[AJMD429]

Bluesman, I like your spirit. Good to know what a top load for that bullet is in you rifle. Since that's essentially the same rifle that Rossi chambers for 454 Casull, it'll handle the pressure, and it will be the brass which will tell you when you have hit top levels.

From reading I've done on the .454 Casull Rossi Puma, I think the design and build is somewhat different than the 'lesser' chamberings. SOME of the differences are must things like a threaded-on magazine-tube, to keep it from dislocating during heavy recoil, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were metallurgic or subtle internal design differences which could be more than 'cosmetic', so just keep that in mind when 'pushing' the .45 Colt Rossi Pumas.

On the other hand, the .44 Mag and .45 Colt ones do in fact seem to be the same thing other than chambering, so that can be somewhat of a 'guide' perhaps.

Even the .454 Rossi's have had some alleged issues with full-house loads, as well, so I'd be inclined to shoot "light" .454 Casull loads in the .454 Rossi, and "+P" Colt loads in the .45 Colt. That's just my opinion - I'm no gunsmith.

[jd45]

Just for the record, & NOT saying I'd go there in my Rossi '92, but in Paco's Article, " .45's; Small; Big; & Tall", he lists 23.5grs 2400 under a 300gr cast bullet as max, in HIS rifle. Also lists 24.5grs 2400 under a 260gr cast bullet as max in HIS rifle, as well..........advising to start lower & CAREFULLY work our way up to a SAFE max for OUR rifles. jd45

[Old Savage]

The load I have been shooting in my Rossi 45 Colt is 18.5 gr. of H110 with a 360 gr cast Keith type bullet. It chronographs 1350 fps. It is pleasant enough to shoot. Data from Hodgdon 26 would suggest this is in the low 20s for the CUP rating.

[hayabusa]

The load I shoot in my Marlin 1894 45 Colt 24 inch octagon Bbl. is 335 grain cast swc ( by Robert Green of Stonewall Bullet Co.) over 13 grains of AA#9.

it easily brought down a nice deer. One shot=one deer.

Hayabusa

[hayabusa]

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention absolutely no pressure signs. I have not chronographed the load.
Hayabusa

[JFE]

FWIW Hodgdon's site lists 30k pressure loads for 45 LC, but not using 2400. For high performance loads I'd be inclined to use slower burning powders anyway (eg W296, H110, H4227 or Lil'Gun).

[GregT]

Just hauled out my copy of Hodgdon's #26 Manual... Pages 583-590... Wow! Never read those before. The chambers on both of my Rossi Model 92 .45 Colts are max. I let the case expand as it will and then only size enough of the neck to hold the slug. Looks like a bottleneck cartridge when I'm done. I load only with cast slugs up to 255 grains and about 1100 fps with Unique. I would not touch those Hodgdon loads myself as I have no use for them at all. I like my cases to last as they ain't cheap! (I am, they're not!). Hodgdon does not state what firearm they used as a test weapon. Only that they used a 7 inch barrel!! Bet it was a universal receiver pressure gun. Good luck with the hi-speed stuff. Stay safe.
GregT
Hayward, Wi

[J Miller]

Just hauled out my copy of Hodgdon's #26 Manual... Pages 583-590... Wow! Never read those before. The chambers on both of my Rossi Model 92 .45 Colts are max. I let the case expand as it will and then only size enough of the neck to hold the slug. Looks like a bottleneck cartridge when I'm done. I load only with cast slugs up to 255 grains and about 1100 fps with Unique. I would not touch those Hodgdon loads myself as I have no use for them at all. I like my cases to last as they ain't cheap! (I am, they're not!). Hodgdon does not state what firearm they used as a test weapon. Only that they used a 7 inch barrel!! Bet it was a universal receiver pressure gun. Good luck with the hi-speed stuff. Stay safe.
GregT
Hayward, Wi

bluesman423,

If you want some smoking loads that are very close, if not at max, they are at 30,000 CUP, go on eBay or Amazon or where ever, and find a copy of Hodgdons #26.

That book has loads in it for the .45 Colt you will not find any where else. They are listed as being tested in a hand gun length test barrel, but they work very well in rifles. I've tried them in both my Win 94AE and Marlin 1894.

Some of them are unpleasant to shoot.

Joe

Greg,
Those are the loads I referred to on page one of this thread. They do tend to get your attention.

Joe

[Hobie]

Pressure signs... Bullet exits barrel, loud noise accompanies firing... but you're looking for some sort of sign of excessive pressure. Hmmmm, slightly harder/more difficult extraction, maybe... How about blown primers or coining of the brass? Would that stop you? It hasn't been enough for some folks. I'd like to add that 2400 is probably not the best choice for maximum velocities. I'd use H110 (and did as I mentioned).

Let's look at this another way. Putting your individual "case" aside, let's consider the ramifications of the choice where somebody says something such as "I probably should stop but I want to go further." Oh, yes, we've had advances in knowledge from testing our manufactured goods to destruction but the individuals have sometimes suffered. For me, and I was an infantryman (and a bunch of those who responded to this topic with cautions have similar backgrounds), I look at my family and I say "why risk everything for them to satisfy my own ego?" Let's face facts, if one MUST reach the edge as if it is some sort of challenge put to one by life and if one can't accept the knowledge that others have acquired through their experimentation then it is all about one's ego. There is a bigger lesson to learn there.

It is my opinion that ammunition we leave about shouldn't be dangerous to those who come after us if we are no longer there to point out the dangers. It is one thing to say that it is my body but to risk somebody else's well being through our risk taking is wrong. Driving drunk and shooting hot ammo in a search for the "edge" at the range is equally irresponsible. It is easy enough to make an honest mistake or have circumstances combine to create a problem when loading ammo. On another board, a member's handloaded ammo destroyed the cylinder of a revolver and a fairly large piece entered the forearm of another shooter, a close friend of the handloader. In that case there was no attempt made to ride the edge and yet, there might have been a tragedy. So, why should somebody try to reach that point and expose others, directly or INDIRECTLY, to the effects of such unreasonableness? This is a hobby for most of us and it is hardly necessary to make do, take chances, plow new ground, in order to have ammunition to shoot. And, I might also add, if you need more gun, get more gun. There's plenty to choose from.

[Old Savage]

+1 on that!

[PEteacher]

Influenced by the book "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge, My wife and I know our son (and daughters to a lesser degree) need to take chances / risks to fully enjoy their lives as God intends. But since we hope they put a little thought into these risks, our family "Goodbye" to each other has been for several years, "See ya, love ya, don't be stupid!"

To help me "not be stupid", two red flags I have learned from personal experience to pay attention to:
1.) From others - "Hold my beer and watch this!"
2.) From myself - "Most guys would need help, but I wonder if I can do this by myself."

To these, before it becomes a personal experience, maybe I should add:
3.) From anyone - "I wonder how much this gun can handle?"

<><
Jeff

[Catshooter]

With my Trapper, I stopped at 20 grains of 2400 under either the 260 or 315 Keiths. The 260s knock the 200 yard Rams down just fine. That is if I do my part. They do all I need.


Cat

[earlmck]

Bluesman, I just sized/primed a batch of 454 Casull I shot last week with 31 grains of Lil' gun, and the 300 grain Hornady XTP. Hodgdon shows this (with an FA jacketed bullet) at 45,000 CUP. I had noted a few shots having slightly sticky extraction and concluded that with my gun and my components, the 31 grains was a notch past maximum because of that pressure sign. And sure enough, as I primed these babies a few minutes ago I had several primer pockets that don't hold the primer quite as tight as they used to. So in spite of what Hodgdon's showed, I must have gone on somewhat past 50,000 CUP with that load and my XTPs and I know to back off. But I didn't know that until I got some pressure signs!

Now I know you are not loading a Casull, but you have essentially the same gun (Rossi m92) and new 45 Colt brass is plenty strong. The only difference between your situation and mine is that I have published loads in the 50,000 CUP range to steer me along, while you don't because of all the weaker guns out there shooting that 45 Colt cartrdge. So if you still want to find a max pressure for your gun and your components, I believe you are just fine to go ahead, easing up a few tenths at a time, until you get that first sign of a bit too much pressure. Which, as I stated previously, will be slightly sticky extraction. With a m92 Rossi your very first sign of pressure excess is not going to be the gun blowing apart.

Some folks have correctly advised that H110 would get you higher velocities at your max pressure, and that is true. And you've been advised that 45 Colt loads getting up toward 50,000 CUP would be hazardous in most other guns, but you already knew that. Paint 'em red, maybe? But hey, you can already buy commercially loaded stuff that would blow up an old Colt single-action.

Feller buys one of the neatest little rifles on the planet should be excused for wanting to see just what it is capable of...