Sufficient energy to kill deer cleanly w/357

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:55 pm

I was looking at Hornady's ballistic calculator on their web site

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/balli ... ulator.php

and I got to thinking about killing power. Assuming a 158 gr Hornady XTP-FP with a BC of .199 and a muzzle velocity of 2000fps, the energy in foot/pounds at 100 yards is 944. That's less than a third of the published calculations for my .30/06 (180 gr Partition @ 2880 fps).
I know many people on this board have killed a lot of animals cleanly with similar loads, but I just have to wonder at the numbers. Is my '06 triple overkill? Is the 357 just barely enough? If I see a buck at 150 yards am I irresponsible if I shoot at him (769 ft/lbs)? I really like the idea of carrying either my Rossi or 1894C after mulies this year (assuming I draw for my tag). My fallback is a model 71, so I'm not at a loss for rifles, but I don't want to be undergunned if a career-sized buck steps out.

Quinn

jbm1968 · Post by **jbm1968** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:05 pm

My feeling is often that we here seem to backlash against the modern marketing that says we have to hunt whitetail with a 300 Magnum. Of course, the truth is that if you shoot accurately with a 25-20 you can kill a whitetail (I have seen it done) but is it the best??? Not really, in my mind anyways. Carefully, consider your hunting environment then carry what you feel will work and it will work if you do your part. A .357 will certainly kill Mule deer and if you know your shots are going to be within your range use it, I would. If not, carry something else. If I am expecting to shoot at more than 150 yards I carry my scoped '06. I do not get to shoot enough or hunt enough to do otherwise. Under 150 yards is a different ballgame and I use my 375 Winchester!!!

Dirty Dan · Post by **Dirty Dan** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:29 pm

I missed a lifetime mulie in 1978 because I carried an iron sighted Mod 94 instead of my scoped '06. He was much farther away than I anticipated and never squeezed the trigger, but he was big from whatever the distance was- 200+ as I recall.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:39 pm

The .357 magnum rifle is plenty for deer. I like the 180 grain bullet.

"Major Doug Wesson also made the new revolver a sportsmanâ€™s choice by setting out on a highly publicized hunting trip to take nearly every major species of big game in North America with an eight-inch version of the new revolver. And he did it..........the .357 was the cartridge that every serious handgun shooter had to have."

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:45 pm

I consider my 357 with 180 gr. bullet acceptable for deer, but I limit my shots to 75 yards or less. I would not personally take a 150 yard shot with mine.

gunstockmaker · Post by **gunstockmaker** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:49 pm

I've read story after story from gun scribes who believe 1000 ft lbs the minimum for deer - the 180 grain 357 is up to the task. It's no 150 yard rifle though. I'd use it in the limited sense - as leverguns put the hunt back in hunting.

cvarcher · Post by **cvarcher** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:20 pm

Ask anyone who killed efficiently with the little 22 magnum. Lights out.Or 45 colt -less than 600lbs. Thats meaningless. I believe 30-06 is overkill in our quest for more and more power we dont need.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:24 pm

Where I hunt in Oregon is usually stand-type terrain. The season begins in late September/early October, so the woods are almost always crunchy as can be. We select stands on the opposite side of cover that usually gets pushed (unwittingly) by the impatient. Nearly all shots are with 100 yards. We (my dad, broether, and I) have done well for about a decade.
That being said, the odd opportunity presents itself at farther distances. The buck in my avatar I took last year opening day at 123 yards, a bit of a stretch for my semi-buckhorn and big gold bead, but well within the capabilities of the 200 grain 348 Silvertip.
As much as I'd like to carry the 357, I'll have to weigh the circumstances carefully. I've killed my share of deer, but not enough that I'm willing to let my selection of firearm dictate my shot selection. I'm a hunter first and foremost rather than a shooter, but the terrain does not favor a sneak.

Quinn

Rhys.94.375 · Post by **Rhys.94.375** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:39 pm

pharmseller, could you post that picture of your avator please

cheers

jbm1968 · Post by **jbm1968** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:15 pm

TedH, I am with you on that, at 150 yards; I will use my 375 Winchester but not a 357!!! I think I am the main problem in that equation, my range estimation is pretty poor. Also, I agree that the '06 is overkill on whitetail too, I guess it is a matter of how much overkill you want

The '06 is perfect in my mind for a do anything rifle in the lower 48. Still, it is a bit heavy and long for a carry all day, every day gun. It is why I love the M94 so much, you can do ANYTHING with it!

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:54 pm

Rhys.94.375 wrote:pharmseller, could you post that picture of your avator please

cheers

Now you're making me blush!

Quinn

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:21 am

Oh yeah, now I see the Model 71.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

People can and do kill deer with a given load from a 4" revolver that they would not use from a 20" barreled rifle. That amazes me. While the bullet needs to be properly constructed for the velocities, the energy is a small part of the calculation. The main thing is to put a hole of sufficient diameter through the vital organs disrupting operations, i.e. oxygen to the brain. Destroy heart, lungs, brain or remove so much blood there is no way to transport oxygen from the lungs to the brain and you have a dead deer or any other animal. Basic? Yes. But that is all that it takes whether you're using a sharp stick or throwing a metal projectile at the target.

What it comes down to is what gives you confidence.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:04 am

I had a conversation with a guy who told me .357 mag wasn't enough gun for deer. So I asked if his compound bow was enough gun to kill a deer. He said that was different.

dgr416 · Post by **dgr416** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:34 am

Its funny people think the 357 is too little for deer but just right for self defence.Go figure.I carry my 41 mag for self defence with 175 gr silver tip hollow points.I think the 357 mag will work on deer but there are alot better cartridges for it.I sold my 357 mag browning model 92 because I couldnt put a scope on it and I thought it was under powered for deer.It was fun to shoot.I could have hunted snowshoe hares with it with a scope

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:58 am

dgr416 wrote:Its funny people think the 357 is too little for deer but just right for self defence.Go figure.I carry my 41 mag for self defence with 175 gr silver tip hollow points.I think the 357 mag will work on deer but there are alot better cartridges for it.I sold my 357 mag browning model 92 because I couldnt put a scope on it and I thought it was under powered for deer.It was fun to shoot.I could have hunted snowshoe hares with it with a scope

The difference for me is distance. SD I figure around 5 to 50 feet. Deer I figure 50 to 100 yards.

Quinn

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:04 am

No comment. But, then again, I hunt with a .30-30 and we know it's a minimal cartridge for deer.

What Hobie said.

TomF · Post by **TomF** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:22 am

Heck, we shoot beef cattle with a .22. Shot placement is paramount. The 357 should be fine provided we all understand its limitations. I plan to use my 357 for Texas whitetails.

TomF

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:27 pm

the slug won't bounce off

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:33 pm

nemhed
Levergunner 1.0

Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 91
Location: SW Central Indiana
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:04 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a conversation with a guy who told me .357 mag wasn't enough gun for deer. So I asked if his compound bow was enough gun to kill a deer. He said that was different.

There is a big diffence in how the two kill. An arrow doesn't need high speed to do the job with a broad head it just cuts and slices its way threw doing alot of damage.

Now having said that. The .357 out of a lever packs a nice punch with in reasonable ranges. It isnt an 800 yard sniper rifle but at 150 yards or less I wouldnt feel under guned if that is what I had.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:45 pm

JReed, my only point was the guy completly missed the irony of what I was trying to say. He is the "nothing less than a 300 win mag" type of guy who also can't undersand how anyone could kill a deer with a traditional bow, which is what I use. Most people don't get my sarcasm anyway, just something I've gotten used to. It doesn't come across well on the internet either, sorry.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:49 pm

No problem I am only on my first cup of coffee and it is monday morning

. I usualy get the same coments when I tell people that I take my enfield out hunting. I had one guy tell me I needed to get a real rifle in .308

.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:13 pm

It's surprising how little you need. The extra FPS is for ease of hitting......
I remember someone....Mike V.?........talking about shooting an old wooden out house from about a half mile with a 45 and it penetrated thru several inches of solid wood......

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:46 pm

Hobie wrote:People can and do kill deer with a given load from a 4" revolver that they would not use from a 20" barreled rifle. That amazes me. While the bullet needs to be properly constructed for the velocities, the energy is a small part of the calculation. The main thing is to put a hole of sufficient diameter through the vital organs disrupting operations, i.e. oxygen to the brain. Destroy heart, lungs, brain or remove so much blood there is no way to transport oxygen from the lungs to the brain and you have a dead deer or any other animal. Basic? Yes. But that is all that it takes whether you're using a sharp stick or throwing a metal projectile at the target.

What it comes down to is what gives you confidence.

Hobie put it very well but for me, Ft/lbs mean diddly. It's just a number and has no bearing on the outcome what so ever. Tell me how do you get "overkill" or how do you kill something to much?
Now lets imagine a nice deer and you whack it with a 357 and it takes the shot, that sweet little round allows you to see everything going on and even get a second shot off. Meanwhile the 30-06 is still coming down from recoil and the shooter probs has no idea what went on

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:40 pm

It takes very little power to get a bullet through the skin and into the vitals of a deer. Fact is many times it'd get in there better at a lower speed than a higher speed. Reason is it'd mushroom less and therefore penetrate better.

A good shot could take a little model 94 Marlin--with scope--chambered for 357 mag and kill deer consistently and cleanly at 300 yards. Not saying they'd always drop in their tracks. This assumes a knowledge of the gun and cartridge's drop at 300 yds.

As we keep hearing over and over and over: shot placement is the biggest part of the picture.

Don McCullough

Peter M. Eick · Post by **Peter M. Eick** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:43 pm

A long time back, as a kid I went deer hunting back in Michigan with my 357 Magnum Python. I was the laughing stock of the hunting camp but I had just bought the Python and boy was I proud of it. My camp was filled with 30/30's and Model 8's and 81's, so a handgun was out of the question.

Opening morning walking down an old logging trail I had a nice big buck come out of the brush about 8 yrds away and just stare at me since it was just first light. We both stared, I reached slowly for the Python from the holster and we continued to stare at each other. Eventually I aimed and fired one shot of a 158 grn JHP (if I remember right). The buck went down and hunting season was over not 5 minutes into it.

The 357 will drop a deer REAL quick and makes a heck of a mess at close range. I don't care what the statistics say, at ranges where you can be sure you have a good solid hit with a 357 Magnum out of a handgun, the deer will drop like a rock! Just watch where you hit because it will sure tear up a lot of meat.

Oh yeah, on opening day, only I got a deer and I got the last laugh!

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:01 pm

Oh yeah, on opening day, only I got a deer and I got the last laugh!

I can imagine the boys got an earful that night in camp!

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:17 pm

PM Eick, Brilliant

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:31 pm

(Sufficient energy to kill deer cleanly w/357 ???)

YEP !

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:20 pm

If you haven't read them yet ...

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/357magnum.htm

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... rature.htm

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:25 pm

I am quoting here:

"Death results from permanent loss of brain function. This can be from direct damage to the brain itself, or from damage to other vital structures, that results in damage to the brain indirectly. We know what those structures are, and where they are. If we can get a bullet to those structures with enough undeviating penetration, and inflict enough damage, our objective will be met.

Energy is fine, but drops off fast. It is not an indicator of penetration potential, and tells us nothing about directional stability. It may give us some indication of the amount of damage around the wound channel, but unless that wound channel blasts through something vital, collateral damage doesnâ€™t make much difference.

Momentum does tell us something about penetration, and angular momentum and sectional density tells us about directional stability. This means:

1) Velocity is less important than worshipers of energy figures believe,

2) In the same caliber, heavy bullets will carry farther than light bullets, and stabilize better, and

3) Larger diameter bullets will stabilize better, and destroy more tissue (other things being equal)."

From OVERKILL AND UNDERKILL by Dr. Chris Ryan

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/overkill.htm

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:17 pm

Good articles there - very interesting.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:28 pm

Heck, Jim's article is the one that convinced me I need a Blackhawk in .357

bobbyjack · Post by **bobbyjack** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:42 am

A .357 is a 35 cal,same As a 35 whealan just a lot less cartrage and a lot less penetration! Still 35 cal,just like a 38 special !

You still want to hunt with them?

Bob

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:22 am

Do I still want to hunt with a 357mag? HECK YES!

86er · Post by **86er** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:09 am

I won't knock the 357 for deer - I have seen it work many times. Purely a guess, I have probably seen an average of 50 animals shot with a 357.

There is a difference between what you could do and what you should do. There is also a difference between sufficient and effecient.

You have to make a personal decision as to what your parameters are and live with the limitations and consequences.

Ask Ji or PaPaBear or Link Smith. Ji shot a 72 pound blackbuck at 60 yards with a 357 rifle. The shot hit high rear heart and one lung. The antelope went 70 yards into the brush. Around 3 -4 minutes later he put another into the lungs. The antelope moved on a little and a third round ended its life. PaPaBear shot a 68 pound blackbuck at 54 yards with a 35 Remington. The animal ran into the brush and came back out on a sendero running away. Another 35 went through the lungs and a third broke a front and rear leg and severed the corotid artery. L Smith shot a blackbuck at 30 yards with a 44 Mag contender. The shot entered between the neck and shoulder and broke the entire scapular and destroyed a lung. The 75 pound antelope ran just over 100 yards into the brush and expired. These three examples from one week are typical of what I see and have come to expect.

The 357 Mag is a fun cartridge and will take game very well. To be ethical and successful you need to exercise discipline in your hunting and shooting. Then you need to be prepared to get the job done. There is no time to start hesitating over worrying about hurting meat or hitting antlers. If the animal goes down with one good shot that is ideal and be thankful. If not, engage in a relentless pursuit to get the job done quickly and finally. This is one cartridge where the results are probably 50/50 every time you pull the trigger. There is nothing wrong with those odds as long as you recognize it and have a plan to beat the odds with additional rounds, tactics and patience.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:28 am

I'm in aggrement with 86er. To quote Clint Eastwood (I forget which movie), "A man's got to know his limitations" It doesn't matter which legal cartridge or hunting tool you use, whether it's a 338 Lapua Magnum or a 35 lb primative bow, you've got to know what your capabilities and limitations are and work (hunt) within those to be an ethical hunter. Sufficient,efficient, and effective are unfortunately subjective terms. We each have to decide what they mean.

edsguns · Post by **edsguns** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:30 pm

jbm1968 wrote:TedH, I am with you on that, at 150 yards; I will use my 375 Winchester but not a 357!!! I think I am the main problem in that equation, my range estimation is pretty poor. Also, I agree that the '06 is overkill on whitetail too, I guess it is a matter of how much overkill you want The '06 is perfect in my mind for a do anything rifle in the lower 48. Still, it is a bit heavy and long for a carry all day, every day gun. It is why I love the M94 so much, you can do ANYTHING with it!

I'm kinda wondering exactly what "overkill" is on a deer. I don't think I've ever heard the '06 charactarized as such before.(then what about a.444, a 45/70, .450 Marlin?) Can whitetails be harvested cleanly with less bullet than a typical '06 round...yup! But if someone is not bothered by the moderate recoil and shoots it well, It may be one of the VERY best whitetail rounds, period. Over 75 commercial loadings and endless numbers of good handloaded rounds tailored to a certain rifle, make it very near the King. And personally, to me, more of an all-round deer rifle than even the beloved 30/30, especially when talking moderate to long ranges. It's been necked down, necked up and produced in a version as powerful as the revered 300H&H. What else does one need? Just an obsevation here after using at least 15 different calibers to harvest dozens of deer in the last decade or so.

JB · Post by JB » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:45 pm

JimT wrote:
3) Larger diameter bullets will stabilize better, and destroy more tissue (other things being equal)."

From OVERKILL AND UNDERKILL by Dr. Chris Ryan

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/overkill.htm

I'm not sure I understand the physics of a larger diameter bullet stabilizing better than a small diameter bullet. I'd have to have that one proven to me.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:19 pm

JB wrote:
JimT wrote:
3) Larger diameter bullets will stabilize better, and destroy more tissue (other things being equal)."

From OVERKILL AND UNDERKILL by Dr. Chris Ryan

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/overkill.htm
I'm not sure I understand the physics of a larger diameter bullet stabilizing better than a small diameter bullet. I'd have to have that one proven to me.

If I understood Dr. Ryan correctly (from reading his articles) he meant that the larger diameter bullets stabilize better IN TISSUE than the smaller .. long for their weight .. bullets.

That's just my guess on what he meant.

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:39 pm

Question???? BIG DEER or little deer, It does make a difference ...

A 200 lb Northern Deer would require VERY good bullet Placement
with a 357Mag to make a clean Kill.....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:25 am

JB wrote: I'm not sure I understand the physics of a larger diameter bullet stabilizing better than a small diameter bullet. I'd have to have that one proven to me.

One factor might be that the short fat bullets don't require the fastest RPM spin as do the long skinny ones, in order to keep from yaw-ing, so they may (all else being equal, which of course it never is) be more accurate, and may tend to go less 'crazy' on impact since they aren't yaw-ing.

Of course the long skinny bullets can be generally driven faster, because they are usually used in bottle-neck cases, and they have flatter trajectories and better retained velocities so go subsonic and destabilize farther from the muzzle, and rifling twist not only can vary, but imparts way more RPM to the bullet at higher velocities for the same twist. On the other hand, maybe it really doesn't matter if the short/fat bullets go subsonic sooner, because they are more easily stabilized, and even if 'tipped' by some yaw, are sometimes so nearly 'round-ball' in shape that who cares?

So, really, although it is interesting to speculate, just looking at who kills deer with what leads to the obvious conclusion that 90% of it IS shot placement, and the rest may be how big the hole is. Some people are better bowlers, and others are better baseball pitchers, and I think some of us just shoot more accurately with the .45-70's and others with the .243's likewise. Both seem to do well.

I've seen .357 used on deer at 100 yards where they dropped instantly (ran less than 20 yards) and yet I know that doesn't always happen - even with much more powerful rounds. I personally had one deer with a lung AND heart shot at 50 yards, from a 1800 fps 265 grain 45 caliber flat-point (saboted 12 ga slug) that ran about 150 yards UPHILL.

The dangerous game guys though have different concerns, as they aren't just wanting a humane kill within 10 or 20 seconds, with minimal meat destruction. They need INSTANT incapacitation; a cape buffalo (or for that matter, in self defense, a puny human with a weapon) could use that few seconds to make you regret it.

All deer get to do for 'revenge' is try to find the deepest ravine to crash in

, and hope we have a heart attack pulling them out!

Maybe it depends less on our ballistics, than on their adrenalin level at the time, or just how mean they are.

Ravenman · Post by **Ravenman** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:56 am

TedH wrote:I consider my 357 with 180 gr. bullet acceptable for deer, but I limit my shots to 75 yards or less. I would not personally take a 150 yard shot with mine.

My thinking too. These are the words of a real hunter! Someone wrote he would use a scoped Marlin 1894 357 Magnum 300 yards shots with "good" results. Would never try such a stunt. The 357 Magnum was not thought as a long range cartridge. How accurate is the Marlin 357 at 300 yards? Is it possible to hit the vitals and what about the bullet performance, the rainbow trajectory or the deflection by crosswind?
As TedH wrote; stay within 75yards and you will bring home meat of a clean kill.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:41 am

getitdone1 wrote:It takes very little power to get a bullet through the skin and into the vitals of a deer. Fact is many times it'd get in there better at a lower speed than a higher speed. Reason is it'd mushroom less and therefore penetrate better.

A good shot could take a little model 94 Marlin--with scope--chambered for 357 mag and kill deer consistently and cleanly at 300 yards. Not saying they'd always drop in their tracks. This assumes a knowledge of the gun and cartridge's drop at 300 yds.

As we keep hearing over and over and over: shot placement is the biggest part of the picture.

Don McCullough

Don,
Not disputing your post, but I come up against the numbers again.
180 gr., .199 B.C., 2000 fps at the muzzle
www.hornady.com

If you sight in at 100 yards this bullet drops nearly 43 inches at 300 yards. If sighted in for zero at 200 yards the bullet is almost 6 inches high at 100 yards and still drops 25 inches at 300 yards. A 300 yard zero puts the bullet 14 inches high at 100 yards and 17 inches high at 200 yards.
The energy at 300 yards is barely over 500.
Maybe I put too much stock in energy, but 500 ft/lbs sure doesn't seem like much. Plus, I'm not good enough to estimate range and holdover for those distances.
The good news for me, in reading these replies, is that 99% of my shots are under 100 yards where I deer hunt. I might just hunt with the Rossi.

Quinn

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:44 pm

Wind drift is the killer at long range - look at what it does. Here it can be blowing both ways a once in a 300 yd line due to the topography.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:19 pm

I've never shot a deer with a 357 mag but I've shot wild goats and just recently a Black Buck doe. The goats I've shot were anywhere from 80 to 100 pounds and the farthest shot 125 yards and these goats all went down with one round none running farther than a few short steps. Now the Black Buck was the most tenacious critter I have ever shot even more so than any wild pig I've ever encountered the first shot being a perfect heart/lung this little critter ran off and required 2 more well placed shots in the heart/lung area before finally dropping but still taking over a minute to expire. Two other shot with a 44 mag and a 35 Remington also showed comparable tenacity to cling to life. I think the 357 mag was enough gun for this under 80 pound critter, and I plan on using this round on deer but I don't expect it to drop like "Hammer of Thor" dead.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:10 pm

I have killed 3 with a 6" smith and wesson revolver at 20 to 25 yards with no problem.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:01 pm

bobbyjack wrote:A .357 is a 35 cal,same As a 35 whealan just a lot less cartrage and a lot less penetration! Still 35 cal,just like a 38 special !

You still want to hunt with them?

Bob

Not necessarily. A slower bullet oftens penetrates farther. I had tested bullets at speeds as disparate as 1100 fps and 2600 fps and often the slower bullet (same bullet) penetrated considerably farther, in some case 25-50%.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:04 pm

The longer the length/diameter ratio the less stable.

Nothing more stable than a round ball.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:58 am

Angular momentum depends not only on the RPMs but also on how far each atom of the bullet is from the center of rotation. Fat bullets have more atoms farther out, thus more angular momentum for the same RPMs.

I'm guessing part of the 357's questionable reputation has more to do with poor shot placement than with how it hits when it gets there. Any scoped bolt gun will run rings around an iron-sighted little lever gun when the ranges get long. At least, I sure have more trouble with accuracy with a lever gun! Also as has been mentioned, any long range shooting with a revolver bullet is more affected by wind, another hit in the shot placement side of the equation.

Sufficient energy to kill deer cleanly w/357

Sufficient energy to kill deer cleanly w/357

It'll absolutly kill a whitetail

1000lb minimum for deer! NOT!

357 for deer

Re: 357 for deer