Range report....not a good one

[shooter]

I took a friend to the gun range today. He bought his first gun a couple weeks ago, a Cimarron Plinkerton .22. I also took my bro and 2 cousins with me. We all shot decent, and with no complaints. We shot a lot of handguns, and then moved on to a little bit of rifle shooting. Not my best day at the range, but not too bad considering the 100+ degree weather.

Right in the middle of our rifle shooting session, these two gangbanger looking guys showed up. They were being loud, disrespectful, and didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. One guy was shooting some kind of semi auto pistol down at the pistol range, and the guy by us was shooting an AR-15. The one shooting the AR was hitting the dirt half way between him and the 50 yd. target.

The thing that sent me over the edge was when the guy shooting the AR pointed his gun straight at me and the group I was with to clear a jam. I immediately (but maybe not so nicely) told him to keep his muzzle pointed downrange, as I didn't want to get shot today. Not five minutes later the range master came out, and the guy turned around and carelessly pointed the gun at him. If it was my range, the idiot would have been banned right then and there. Instead, we decided it was time to pack up and leave as the range suddenly seemed much less safe.

More of a rant than a range report, but I just wish these jokers weren't allowed to breed. He had no knowledge of safety, and could have easily pulled the trigger with his gun pointed in an unsafe direction. I was way more worried about him shooting us accidentally rather than if he actually wanted to. I just don't take kindly to having a loaded gun pointed at me.

[J Miller]

I agree with you totally. However I think I might have waited to see what the range master did after getting the gun pointed at him.

Joe

[shooter]

Joe, I did wait. We stayed about 15 or 20 minutes after that incident, and I spoke with the owner of the range about both incidents. He told me he was trying to teach these guys responsibility with guns. While that is a very noble thing for him to attempt, it's not going to be while I am on the range, nor when I have the responsibility of a 15 and 11 yr old on my hands.

Also, you can't erase a lifetime of bad choices by teaching someone how to handle a gun. I'm not even sure how I feel about someone equipping these guys with the skills to have a better probability of actually shooting a person. Maybe I'm a bit prejudice, or I don't have enough compassion or whatever, but that's my take on it.

[Rusty]

I think I'd be looking for another range to do my shooting.

[FWiedner]

I wasn't there.

I sympathize with your concerns.

I think you're over-reacting, just a little bit.

[Alan Wood]

I quit going to a range that is fully half an hour each way closer than the one I now use after a coworker told me about a similar experience at the closer range! Forget the details but it was pretty bad.

[guido4198]

I don't think you over-reacted at all. In fact..."not so nice" would be a minimum level of response to having a rifle pointed at me. A calm,professional, serious discussion with the range owner at this point would be in order. If the range owner doesn't take immediate action to correct those kind of behaviors, advise that individual that you have documented HIS negligence and as a result HE OWNS any tragedy that might occur there.
"Find another place" sounds great....but in some areas, that's not so easily accomplished and doesn't help that range owner understand his reposnsibilites to keep the place SAFE.
I know, (before anyone else chimes in here to tell me...) perhaps I'm a little too "testy" on this topic. That can happen after a friend has had their head taken off as a result of careless handling of a shotgun.

[bunyan]

I stopped hunting with a friend of mine when we were teenagers because I got sick of looking down the muzzle of his 12 gauge much too often. Several times in one outing! And I have seen some insane behavior at ranges over the years. Everyone has their own level of tolerance for safety and if these guys crossed yours then I respect that. No one likes having a loaded gun pointed at them. If these guys have been warned and were repeatedly neglecting firearms safety rule number one, the range officer should do something about it. He may be intimidated by their appearance, age, background, whatever. But just as that should have no reflection on their legal right to own or shoot firearms, it shouldn't prevent the range officer from enforcing the rules either. I think that after you reminded them, and then there was a second infraction, leaving was the smart, and safe thing to do.

[J Miller]

shooter,

I understand now. And accept your decision.

Joe

[AJMD429]

More of a rant than a range report, but I just wish these jokers weren't allowed to breed. He had no knowledge of safety, and could have easily pulled the trigger with his gun pointed in an unsafe direction. I was way more worried about him shooting us accidentally rather than if he actually wanted to. I just don't take kindly to having a loaded gun pointed at me.

We're creating a real mess; kids were certainly 'kids' when I was young, and no doubt looked/dressed in ways that disturbed our elders, but we WERE far more responsible with firearms, and a 'gang' was more likely to fight with dirt-clods over a favorite fishing-hole (if the fish weren't biting anyway, and we'd rather have a dirt-clod 'war') than to fight over drug-dealing turf with stolen firearms. Much of it is due to the counterproductive (even if well-intended) public policy our educational & legal system has spewed out for the past 40 years or so.

• a) far fewer kids even have dads around due to our 'welfare-state' society.
  
  b) fewer of the intact families hunt or shoot together and thus ingrain gun safety into the kids, due to our 'anti-gun' schools, media, and laws.
  
  c) fewer of the kids have to 'grow up' and get a real job, since the 'drug-war' makes dealing so profitable.

I agree with trying to 'salvage' as many of these kids as possible, though; they ARE the ones who will run this country in a decade or so, like it or not. Even if we salvage only 10% of them, at least there will be some sensible & safe people in the world.

[vancelw]

Nope, you're not over-reacting at all.
I keep trying to get our club to require an orientation session before anyone is allowed to go to the range unattended. Gone are the days when everyone has military, police, boy scouts, hunter safety education, or Jaycees firearms training. It will only get better if we take steps to make it get better.

Our annual club meeting is in a few weeks. I think i'm going to be adamant that we require training (or proof of prior training) before allowing new member the combo to the gate. Otherwise, I think I will build a range at my house and use it instead. I have even offered to teach some of the orientation sessions. I'm hoping a few more responsible souls will step up and offer to handle the rest.

Can't take back a moment in time where a life-changing mistake is made.

[AJMD429]

It will only get better if we take steps to make it get better.

Yep.

I think i'm going to be adamant that we require training (or proof of prior training) before allowing new member the combo to the gate.

It can be done in an effective way, yet you'll have to be careful not to 'insult' the old-timers who don't want to have to put up with being told stuff they 'know already'...

We have a 100-yard range in our back-yard, and before any guest shoots - EVEN 'OLD-TIMERS' who've been shooting guns since before I was born - get shown the 'range rules', which specifies which metal flip-up targets you can shoot with a .22 LR vs. centerfire pistol vs. centerfire rifle (I've had many targets ruined when some friend or relative shoots them with a .223 or some such). That is a non-threatening way to seg-way into the other 'range rules' (printed on the back of the targets I print up on the copier at work). I remind them which directions the house and barns are in, so they know how to obey the rule that says "Firearms may only be handled by the active target shooter - any repairs or adjustments must be made OFF the firing line, and muzzle control WILL be enforced" and the one that says "Regardless of shooter's personal experience level, ANY malfunctioning gun is to be held muzzle-towards-target until the range officer can be handed the firearm".

I've been able to get the 'message' across without anyone taking offense, but I will say that there are TWO groups of people I have to put my hand out (I always stand beside a shooter until I am convinced they are 'safe') to control the muzzle of, or verbally remind.

• a. Newbies - who are never offended that I correct them, but sometimes embarrassed I had to. They learn fast, and seem to appreciate the feedback. They think of guns as dangerous things that they want to learn to use safely.
  
  b. 'Experienced' Shooters - (even cops, ex-military, etc...!) Some of them seem to think of guns as 'just tools' that aren't particularly dangerous. Perhaps it is just that they have been so much more careful, and only around other careful shooters, that they haven't ever had or seen an accidental discharge, so they have become cavalier about waving around the muzzle. Perhaps the fact that they've put hundreds of thousands of rounds down-range more than I have means they have some skill I don't appreciate that makes their guns unable to shoot bullets at something just because the muzzle is pointed at it. Perhaps for some it is that they are so used to high-risk situations where there are bad-guys shooting at them, that the risk of shooting the guy sitting next to you accidentally is so much less than his getting hit by a bad guy, that it doesn't matter. I don't know, but I've definitely learned NOT to assume ANY person handles guns safely until I see it for myself.

Part of the reason we made the shooting range at home was that sort of thing, since at a 'public' or 'club' range, my 'authority' to correct someone's muzzle-waving would not be so well accepted, and there are sometimes dozens of people handling guns, vs. just a couple to keep an eye on. We live in a rural area, so it seemed easy enough to set up targets against the hill, but the sad part is missing out on the 'networking' and interaction with other shooters - more of that is needed so we can educate others, better share the hobby, and perhaps deal with the politics of the issue more effectively.

[O.S.O.K.]

I used to belong to the Austin Rifle Association - which of course is a range. Very nice club, around 1200 members.

First off, you had to be referred to joing.

Second, you had to go through a club safety course before you could use the range - regardless of your "status" (ie, I am an Cert. NRA Rifle instructor) - very very good thing.

I never had any trouble with anything like this while using that range.

Now the public range that I belong to now... not so much. Haven't had any really bad stuff and I am not shy and will "diplomatically" adress safety issues as I see them - a favorite of new members is to stand with the muzzle of their gun behind the line of fire instead of moving up - probably because they want THEIR body back behind the line more.... but it increases the likelyhood of an errant round. The other most favorite stupid thing to do is handle their guns while people are down range...

I don't have any patience for having a loaded gun pointed at me or the people with me - none, and I will jump on the idiot doing it....

[Sixgun]

Stay cool dude-------there's an AH in every part of this great nation. (I have LOTS of 'em where I work) Remember one thing------ONCE THE TRIGGER HAS BEEN PULLED AND SOMEONE GETS HURT OR DIES, NOTHING CAN TAKE THAT BACK--- sooooo.......I would calmy walk up to the dudes and tell them that their actions are either a result of inexperience or stupidity and in either case that they had better get their act together or YOU are going to cause some grief for them. I NEVER wait for someone else to do my talking. Harsh talking gets results---my buddy Gunny, a retired Marine told me that.

I don't play games with idiots--I have told many individuals over the years---all the time with John Browning's classic on my hip that MY life is more important than their stupidity OR inexperience. I could care less if they get mad-I have confidence in my ability to even the score-------Sixgun

[FWiedner]

What I'm saying is that people make mistakes.

These people need to be informed and instructed. YOU are morally at fault if you fail to immediately address an unsafe situation or practice at your range.

Turning your back only results in making one less range available for your use, and may eventually result in the loss of the range entirely because perhaps EVERYONE is to much of a chickenshaat to address the issue.

Tucking tail and running is not the solution.

[Gary]

At the risk of being called a safety Nazi (again) I agree with the OP's actions. I lost my best friend when his head was blown off by an AD. I've also jumped someone's butt at the range for innocently pointing a rifle muzzle at my chest. Gun safety is never retroactive.

I would think that the range should have noticed their demeanor during check in, whether gun noobs or gang-bangers, and taken appropriate steps to watch them closely. OTOH, I've seen gang-bangers violate range rules in front of RO's who were anxious to go home for the day and were... indifferent.

I guess it is up to each of us to keep cool and cite proper gun safety at every opportunity.

/2 centavos

[shooter]

What I'm saying is that people make mistakes.

These people need to be informed and instructed. YOU are morally at fault if you fail to immediately address an unsafe situation or practice at your range.

Turning your back only results in making one less range available for your use, and may eventually result in the loss of the range entirely because perhaps EVERYONE is to much of a chickenshaat to address the issue.

Tucking tail and running is not the solution.

I understand what you are saying. I didn't just tuck tail and run in this situation. After the first incident where the gun was pointed at me and I told him to point it somewhere else, I collected myself and calmly walked over and explained that pointing a gun in someone's direction is not the way to make friends, and told him to always keep the muzzle pointed downrange. Then the other incident happened, and decided I wasn't going to stick around to see if it happened again. All it takes is one more mistake for someone to end up in the hospital injured or dead. I understand we need to encourage responsible gun ownership, but I didn't feel like that was the day for me to play babysitter when I had two kids I was responsible for.

[vancelw]

What I'm saying is that people make mistakes.

These people need to be informed and instructed. YOU are morally at fault if you fail to immediately address an unsafe situation or practice at your range.

Turning your back only results in making one less range available for your use, and may eventually result in the loss of the range entirely because perhaps EVERYONE is to much of a chickenshaat to address the issue.

Tucking tail and running is not the solution.

I understand what you are saying. I didn't just tuck tail and run in this situation. After the first incident where the gun was pointed at me and I told him to point it somewhere else, I collected myself and calmly walked over and explained that pointing a gun in someone's direction is not the way to make friends, and told him to always keep the muzzle pointed downrange. Then the other incident happened, and decided I wasn't going to stick around to see if it happened again. All it takes is one more mistake for someone to end up in the hospital injured or dead. I understand we need to encourage responsible gun ownership, but I didn't feel like that was the day for me to play babysitter when I had two kids I was responsible for.

Amen. Take care of you and yours first. I'm sure your actions might have been different if you were at the range by yourself and didn't have be concerned about protecting others.
I also doubt anyone would have accused you of "tucking tail and running" to your face.

[DixieBoy]

Glad to see that everybody here is really concerned about safe gun handling, even if we have slightly different ways of dealing with it when we see it.

I belong to a private range now, but you still sometimes see the muzzle waving stuff that was described here. It gives me the willies. When we were kids my Dad took me and my brothers to a shooting club he wanted to join and we sat through a gun safety presentation. I'm 57 now, and I must have been about 10 or 11 then, but the slide show we viewed has always stuck with me. There was a photograph of a guy who'd been shot by his buddy with a .45 acp round through the cheek. The buddy had just made a great shot on a paper target, turned to his pal, and let a round fly. The shot buddy lived, but his wound sure didn't look like anything us kids had ever seen on television. I can still see that pic in my mind today, and I don't ever want to be on the receiving end of anything like it. And I'm sure as heck not going to let myself get so lax in my own gun handling that I bring that kind of grief on another person.

Sooooooooo.... when it comes to incidents like those described by shooter in his original post, here's what I do. If the gun is pointed at me, I YELL, like right now. From there, we can have a nice and polite talk, if that is possible. I understand that there are those at ranges today who don't have the safety training which used to be considered standard for all of us. But .... if the response is to blow me off, then I am quite capable of getting ugly with the perpetrator.

Your safety and your life, along with the safety and lives of other innocents nearby, is a million times more important than the feelings of a potential killer, "accidental" or not. Polite is always the way to start these conversations, but if politeness is rebuffed, then I have no obligation to continue on that course, and the fool will learn a lesson. Again, your own safety and that of other innocents is a mountain compared to the anthill of a fool's feelings. - DixieBoy

[FWiedner]

I understand what you are saying. I didn't just tuck tail and run in this situation. After the first incident where the gun was pointed at me and I told him to point it somewhere else, I collected myself and calmly walked over and explained that pointing a gun in someone's direction is not the way to make friends, and told him to always keep the muzzle pointed downrange. Then the other incident happened, and decided I wasn't going to stick around to see if it happened again. All it takes is one more mistake for someone to end up in the hospital injured or dead. I understand we need to encourage responsible gun ownership, but I didn't feel like that was the day for me to play babysitter when I had two kids I was responsible for.

My apologies. In re-reading, I've obviously overlooked your plain statement in the OP that you spoke to the individuals in an attempt to address the situation.

Your actions were both right and responsible. You addressed the situation as best you could and then did what what was necessary.

In my zeal, I only intended to express a concern that such behavior might be observed by any more experienced shooter with no effort made to instruct that inexperienced/careless gun-owner on proper and safe gun-handling, which is obviously not what happened.

Again, my apologies for posting without reading your first post more thoroughly.

[Chas.]

If you felt like you were being threatened with death or serious bodily injury, that's the criteria for self defense in most states. So, just shoot the *** - problem solved.

[shooter]

My apologies. In re-reading, I've obviously overlooked your plain statement in the OP that you spoke to the individuals in an attempt to address the situation.

Your actions were both right and responsible. You addressed the situation as best you could and then did what what was necessary.

In my zeal, I only intended to express a concern that such behavior might be observed by any more experienced shooter with no effort made to instruct that inexperienced/careless gun-owner on proper and safe gun-handling, which is obviously not what happened.

Again, my apologies for posting without reading your first post more thoroughly.

No worries. Maybe I wasn't plain enough in the OP, as I didn't describe fully the conversations that took place. I feel like I get long winded in my posts as it is, and was only trying to convey the parts that upset me and my reason for leaving. I have thick skin, and I'm sure I'll recover

[OJ]

Makes me feel grateful - our range officers are great guys but, they don't tolerate any infractions of rules of gun safety and, if the offender doesn't comply, is immediately ejected from the range with the invitation to not return (split infinitive intentional).

[Sixgun]

Dixie Boy--------------well said --You and I were both born in that great year, 1954--------e-gads, sure seems like a long time ago----------------Sixgun

[DixieBoy]

Sixgun - Naaaaaa...we're still just pups !

Especially you. I was born on Dec. 11, 1953. Hope I made you feel just a little bit younger ! - DixieBoy