Problem with 45 Colt Rifle Load

[guntar]

After several decades (4) of loading ammunition for bolt action rifles, double-action revolvers, and single-action autoloaders, I recently decided to get into some lever actions and single action revolvers. Loading for the 30-30's and 348 went well, then I got into loading for a M92 in 45 Colt.
The rifle is a Winchester take-down model of new manufacture, and incorporates a crescent buttplate and octagonal barrel. It has quickly become my favorite rifle to shoot. My problem started when I decided to shoot a feral hog of about 125 to 150 lbs. with a Winchester factory load using a 250 gr. LFP. It did the job, but clearly could have benefitted from a heavier load. Neither penetration nor tissue damage would have been adequate for the 200 to 300 lb. boars we occasionally encounter. This load chronographs 1022 fps out of my rifle's 24" bbl.
To this end, I started looking around for a heavier load. I also have a Colt New Frontier in 45 Colt. As a precaution, I wanted a load that offered significantly more power than the factory load, but would not result in a catastrophic problem if the loads somehow got mixed up. I assumed that any heavy load that was safe in the Colt, would easily be handled by the Winchester. I looked through several loading manuals and finally decided on using 16.5 gr. of 2400 with a 250 gr. jacketed bullet with Winchester cases and LP primers seated deeply enough to utilize the cannelure on the bullet. This load appears on page 390 of the Lyman handbook 49th edition. I cross-checked this with the rifle section loads on page 306 of the same manual, which indicates a maximum load of 17.5 gr. of 2400 for the same bullet, one grain less powder than my selected load. In addition, the discussions on this website and in other seem to indicate that this load should be well within pressure limits of the rifle.
I went to the range to test this load with the following results:
- Recoil was light
- Report was normal
- Accuracy was excellent (>1" at 50 yds.)
- Velocity was 1640 fps with a standard deviation of 5
When I looked at the casings, I was shocked. There was a raised ridge on the side of the casing about 0.25" up from the base of the case. At first I thought it was an incipient case separation. I checked the primers, and there was no sign of flattening or cratering at all. Puzzled, I looked at the cases more closely, and determined that the ridge showed an expansion of the case at the ridge point (see photos). I apologize for the quality of the photographs, but I am new to taking this type of close-up shot.
The diameter at the base of the case is 0.476", at the ridge expands to 0.486" and then tapers down to 0.475" at the case mouth.
The appearance of the primers, the ease of case removal, the lack of case head expansion, and the available loading data would seem to indicate that this is a moderate load in this rifle. I have never seen cases with these characteristics before. Is there some characteristic of lever actions that causes this? Do I simply have an over-pressure load? Or is something else going on here? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

45 Colt Case Photos.rtfd.zip

[adirondakjack]

That's right about at the top of the web inside the case, where the brass is transitioning to thin wall. Typical loose levergun chamber is my guess. You are not over pressure, and the primer looks fine..... Get some Starline yellow brass for your hot loads.

[pwl44m]

Caint answer Your questions but Welcome to the forum.
Perry

[Griff]

Yep, generous chamberings in almost all .45 Colt rifles lead to this. I get the same thing with both my Ubertis (only one side due to low pressures), but to a lesser degree with my Rossi with the same loads. Sizes right out, not a "problem", just a "quirk"!

Edited to add: and Welcome to THE Forum!

[Don McDowell]

Fairly typical of Winchester brass. I even get that in my old Ruger Blackhawk and winchester factory loads.
If you want to make a better killer out of your 45 dump the jacketed bullets and go with a good Keith type semiwadcutter.

[piller]

It really doesn't look like a problem with over pressure, but with slightly oversize chamber. The Model 92s seem to be hit or miss as far as perfect sizing goes, and that is from any recent manufacturer. Your loads fit right in what my older manuals say is safe, and I would probably just get some Starline brass and try the same load with it. Don's suggestion of using a Keith style bullet sounds like good advice. The Keith style bullet has worked very well at moderate velocities for a long time. I personally like the LBT wide flat nose style bullets, but that is what my rifle shoots well with. Maybe Terry or Buck, or someone else with a lot of experience, will come along and give better advice than I can. Cowboy Tutt seems to have a good handle on things like this, too. Hope you like this forum and stay awhile. I learn something just about every time I log in to it.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

This discussion comes up almost monthly either on the SASS WIRE or here on the LEVERGUNS.COM forum . Usually it is about the 45lc rifles and the severe blowback with the down loaded CAS ammo.
The reason the problem is more common with the 45lc rifle is because the makers all use the maximum SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition. Manufacturers’ Institute) specs when they ream the chambers for the gun. They do this so the gun will more likely cycle with a broad spectrum of ammo's. This is why semi-auto pistol with match grade guns are finicky about the ammo they will run. The match grade chambers are tight.

I do warranty work for EMF. They import the Rossi M92 as well. Over the years the EMF folks have had me do chamber cast on various rifles because the customer insisted the chambers were bad. One feller bought an EMF 92 and before he ever shot it sent it to Doug Turnbull for color-case work. Once he shot it with his CAS loads he found that the cases would swell but only on one side, much like your’s. This to him indicated a bulged chamber. He sent the rifle to me along with some of his bulged fired brass to verify this. I did a chamber cast and found the chamber to be within SAMMI spec. and the cases were truly bulged but not beyond SAMMI. Think about this. If the chamber was bulged and the brass was bulged to match extraction would be difficult. Not the case here. The fired bulged brass would easily chamber and fall right out if the open rifle was held vertical. The brass was bulged because that was the softest or the thinnest area of the case, not because the chamber was bad. He insisted, they gave him his money back and I bought a Doug Turnbull CC-ed rifle on the cheap from them.
More recently, they had a feller send me a 92 and a 73 for the same reason. He insisted the chambers were too big on both. I cast both guns and both guns were within SAMMI. He still insist that they are bad, that SAMMI spec are not correct and the industry should do something about it.


This diagram shows both cartridge and chamber dimensions. Please note that unless noted all diameters are +.004 and there .200' inside the chamber the nominal is .4862. if you add .004 to that the chamber can be as large as .4902 and still be in spec. I believe this all came about when the industry changed from the non rebated old balloon style cases like the one shown to the modern rebated rim swaged brass. Notice the max bullet dia. .456. Modern 45lc bullets run to only about .454 max with the majority at .452. The current ammo specs don't fill the chambers like the old balloon case ammo. So hard brass and down loaded CAS ammo will exhibit these problems.



This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Some folks only neck size their once fired rifle brass. For BP, there are some folks using 44-40 brass blown out to 45 and claim it works well. 44-40 brass is really thin.

[w30wcf]

Ah...the infamous .45 Colt case bulge. I first experienced it back in 1974 when I purchased my first .45 Colt ... a Ruger Blackhawk. At first I thought that the chambers were oversized. A call to Ruger indicated that the maximum diameter could be as large as .491" (!) at the rear of the chamber. My chambers measured .488".

At an average cartridge diameter of .475, cases expanded to .486 /.487" diameter ahead of the rim in my Ruger with heavy (30,000 cup) loads. The bulge was certainly more pronounced on one side than the other.

I finally decided to full length size the cases and put a .10" wide .005" thick piece of tape around the cases ahead of the rim. One firing with a heavy load and the cases expanded pretty evenly all the way around. That made the bulge much less noticeable. I removed the tape and then only neck sized the cases from that day forward........

Thankfully, those same cases fit my 2 other .45 Colt revolvers and my Marlin Cowboy rifle aok.

A few things you could consider doing....
1.) Neck size the case to about 1/16" below where the base of the bullet rests and leave the rest of the case unsized.

2.) Neck size the case and use the Lee carbide criming die that has a carbide ring that will size the base of the case to a slightly larger diameter than the standard carbide sizing die does.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/217484 ... 454-casull

3.) Redding now offers a dual sizing die for the .45 Colt.....but the price.....ouch!
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/943821 ... -long-colt

More here on others that have experienced the 45 Colt Bulge....
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index. ... ic=41614.0

w30wcf

[RIHMFIRE]

read this......interesting to say the least....
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39945

[chadbr]

Does anyone make competition barrels that work and look 'correct' on 94's or 92's?

I would love to get a tighter chamber for my 45lc.

[Griff]

Does anyone make competition barrels that work and look 'correct' on 94's or 92's?
I would love to get a tighter chamber for my 45lc.

The one solution that I've heard works like a charm, is someone reamed a chamber and made a hardened insert that screwed in, much like a removable choke. For the angled feed levers, (Win. 92, 94 & Mar. 1894), bullet selection becomes more critical for proper feeding. The toggle links dislike "Keith" style bullets even more than before!

There is no problem so insurmountable that a pile of bills, high enough to cover the written description of the problem, can not overcome! The issue is the denomination on the bills!

[JohndeFresno]

Wow. Was playing with the idea of obtaining a .45 Colt levergun to match up with my Blackhawk loads. I guess I'll stay with the .30-30 - far less problems! Thank y'all for the wonderful writeups. Here are your photos online, from the Zip file, by the way, Guntar...

[Don McDowell]

Does anyone make competition barrels that work and look 'correct' on 94's or 92's?

I would love to get a tighter chamber for my 45lc.

Green Mountain makes the proper winchester tapers.

[J Miller]

Wow. Was playing with the idea of obtaining a .45 Colt levergun to match up with my Blackhawk loads. I guess I'll stay with the .30-30 - far less problems! Thank y'all for the wonderful writeups. Here are your photos online, from the Zip file, by the way, Guntar...

John,

This ".45 Colt chamber problem" is really much ado about nothing.
I've got two of them right now, a Win 94AE Trapper and a Marlin 1894 Cowboy. I've also had a Rossi 92 in the past.
None of them are or were any problem at all to shoot or load for as long as the pressures are kept at SAAMI or a bit above.
It's just another over blown internet thing.

As far as the cases expanding, that's what they are there for. To provide a gasket to seal the chamber. The "bulge" just shows the cases are doing their job. Stick 'em in the sizing die, run 'em through and load 'em. No big thing. I've been doing that since 1974 and I'm still loading much of the same brass I started with then.
Go buy yourself one and enjoy it.

Joe

[JohndeFresno]

[quote="J ...No big thing. I've been doing that since 1974 and I'm still loading much of the same brass I started with then.
Go buy yourself one and enjoy it.

Joe[/quote]
Thanks, Joe.

[Griff]

Gotta agree w/Joe. Ain't no "thing" to be skeered of!

[JerryB]

guntar, welcome to the forum and enjoy your .45 rifle. Like other s have said it ain't no big deal, the cases will size alright and you can keep loading them. I would also suggest a good hard cast 255 grain bullet for your rifle. My Rossi 92 Hartford does the same thing to brass, I bought a bunch of Starline brass.

[JohndeFresno]

I forget myself and didn't notice the "Posts: 1" after your ID tags.

Welcome to the fire, Guntar. You will find a lot of helpful and cordial folks on this forum - probably more than any other firearms related forum that you can find on the Internet. And sometimes it gets quite humorous or otherwise highly entertaining. I hope that you stay and enjoy the show.

[AJMD429]

Welcome to the fire, Guntar. You will find a lot of helpful and cordial folks on this forum - probably more than any other firearms related forum that you can find on the Internet. And sometimes it gets quite humorous or otherwise highly entertaining. I hope that you stay and enjoy the show.

+1...

The only 'gun' forum I have found where there aren't a bunch of over-bearing 'experts' out to either

• a) impress you with
  
  • how smart they are,
    what a good shot they are, or
    how expensive their equipment is
  or
  
  b) make you feel like you know absolutely nothing about whatever the topic is

Lots of levergun and 'related' stuff here, and the occasionally entertaining 'political' dust-up, as well...

[guntar]

Thanks for both the welcome and the information. This has been very enlightening.
The consensus seems to be that there really isn't a major problem. I am relieved, I really like this rifle as it sits.
Following up on some of the advice in the posts, I found out that Starline brass is scarce, so I have it on backorder from Midway. When it comes to bullets, casting at home is not in the cards right now. Does anybody have any recommendations for commercial lead bullets that would work well in the 1600 to 1800 feet per second?
Thanks again for the help.

[Don McDowell]

www.montanabulletworks.com

Or Big Sky Cast Bullets fourzerosix-835-zero1nine6

[O.S.O.K.]

As said, this is normal. If you want to improve accuracy and prevent case wear, just neck size the cases. But of course, they won't fit (most likely) in your revolver. Do check to make sure they will cycle before loading a bunch up though!!

I did this with max loads for a Ruger BH in 45 Colt that I used to own - it would give me 1.5" groups at 50 yards from a rest - max load of H110 under 300 grain Hornady XTP's (with Leupold scope).

[J Miller]

Never had any signs of abnormal case wear from full sizing all my brass all the time.

That said, neck sizing them has basically the same effect as the rebated chambers on my Old Model BH. They center the case at the rear, then if you use a bullet with a long enough driving band they are centered at the front. There is a potential increase in accuracy there.
Assuming of course you can shoot good enough to see it.

Joe