Your thoughts on scout rifles

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:50 pm

Been reading some articles on " scout rifles " and since I have two versions ( a styer scout rifle in .308, and a marlin 1894s, cut to trapper length w/takedown conversion and work by wild west guns in 44 mag) I was wondering about your thoughts on their suitability for hunting, foraging, or let's call it long term wilderness use, either holding up in the hills, cabin, or long treks. Your experience and or opinions are appreciated. For me, the styer is worthy of consideration as my one rifle. The marlin, I had it built and I'm just not as happy with it for what I was hoping. It feels short in the stock. Love the takedown feature though. I would also say that in the scenarios, I would have a belt gun of some sort with me. I only have animals such as deer, bear, hogs, elk, caribou, or perhaps moose in my animals to think about. The major critters I might be after in those scenarios. Anyway, have it, punch holes or support. All is good info

Bronco · Post by **Bronco** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:14 pm

Howdy,

You can always put a butt cuff on to lengthen the pull!
Always thought that long term wildernessing might be better with a rifle and pistol combination that shot the same round. Just MHO.

John

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:01 pm

I tried the Scout concept with two different rifles.
Gave up on the idea.
For me, if there's gonna be glass it needs to be glass that can give me a MUCH better view of not just the target, but the target area. That means good magnification that my eye can use effectively along with a wider field of view.

The Scout glass gives me one single aiming point with its reticle, but doesn't provide as much practical magnification as a standard scope setup.
Denis

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:01 pm

I like the concept. I'm not hung up on the details, as I believe Cooper wasn't either.

The concept is a short, lightweight, general purpose rifle in a caliber suitable for game up to about 600 lbs, and having enough range to shoot to the ability to the user, he considered 300 yards to be a suitable range for the concept, and settled on the 308 as the best all around chambering for several reasons, tho some other calibers of the same general power range would work as well. I'm not a fan of the forward mounted scope, which many confuse with a "scout rifle", it's simply a single detail of the final scout idea. Cooper himself said he didnt believe a scout even needed a scope, but liked that type, and had good reasons for it, it just doesn't suit me.

The Steyr is an excellent rifle, and the final culmination of the concept, but many other guns fit the general concept, without getting too hung up on details.

I'm working on a project gun, a Ruger tang safety M77, currently in 260 cal, tho it's getting set up as a switch barrel, and will have a 308 barrel, and perhaps eventually, a 338-08 (is there a commercial name for that now?), 358, or 338/284 (standard bolt face, and short action compatible, but having greater powder capacity and range for the length). It will have about a 20" barrel, decent iron sights, and a compact variable power scope of standard type. I think it will be a great all around gun, year round.

junkbug · Post by **junkbug** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:41 pm

Col. Cooper wrote many time that his inspiration for the concept was a combination of his fondness for 2 handy carbines, both without scopes. A Winchester 94 in .25-35 and a 1903 Mannlicher Schoenaur in 6.5mm. I specifically remenber him saying the Winchester's greatest weaknes was the lack of stregnth in the wrist, especially when used in hand to hand combat, as a war club. I truely pray that I will never have to use a rifle or shotgun like that!

I have never gotten used to the forward scope either. If one is content without a scope, a No 5, Mk I Enfield carbine makes a good substitute.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:00 pm

The concept is sound. But the execution is a personal thing. Some folks do best with bolt guns, other semi autos, still others (myself included) prefer leverguns, and I've even seen the concept executed in a pump action (Remington makes/made a short barreled pump gun in 06 and I think .308).

The basic idea of a rifle to forage, and defend oneself with is far from new. Truthfully, the Henry rifle was probably the first viable "Scout" rifle. Capable of taking meat for food, defending oneself (heck it had a phenominal magazine capacity for its day) and just about any other use you might put a rifle to.

I think what Cooper did was get folks thinking about just what uses they put a rifle to, and how best to modify what's already available to serve that purpose.

I bought my 1895 GS some years back when the scout craze was going very strong. I liked the concept. So with a relatively short barreled (it's a 45-70 so a you do need enough barrel to use the capacity of the cartridge), ghost ring iron sights, and in my case a picatinny rail mounted holographic sight, I'm pretty satisfied with it. Granted the magazine capacity isn't great (though some folks have lengthened the mag tube), but I'm not intending to take on a full scale zombie attack. I've outfitted it with a sling and buttcuff, both of which will hold extra ammo (one never knows where one's spare ammo might be placed when needed, attached to the gun it's always there) and provide a better surface on the butt plus a means of carrying it hand free.

So here is my rendition of the "Perfect Scout Rifle". Oh, I have "Perfect Jeep and Perfect Truck Guns" as well.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:03 pm

I have seen exactly one scout sight set-up that I could use. A fellow named Henry who frequents the shop has it on his Mini-14 (late model 580 or 581 prefix) and he loves it. It IS handy. I will often do without a scope for handy. Where I have been hunting, handy counts for more than being able to see even 100 yards.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:31 pm

So your'll looking at 300 yds for elk, moose,etc . A savage 99 with blind magazine, mags are easy to loose, uses SP bullets and is a controlled round feed rifle you can glass it or not can be had in a bunch of calibers or rebarrel to what you want on the 300 sav case, 308 case or 284 case. You could have it in take down so that you could run a varmit round and biggame round. You can get a MPI synth stock for it and head for the hills. 300 sav kills elk just fine. danny

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:29 pm

[a 338-08 (is there a commercial name for that now?), ] - The .338 Federal.

As much as I like/use a short-action leverscout (Marlin 1894), IMHO, glass has NO place on a long term survival/wilderness rifle.

.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:39 pm

I have three and working on the fourth.

Most of the hunting I do is pretty short range in brushy country.

When I got my first Scout rifle, a custom 10/22 it was explained to me the the scout set up was perfect for fast moving or running game.
My 1895 M / .450 with the XS mount and Leupold Scout Scope was perfect for
last week's boar hunt.
Those buggers never stop moving.

Scout rifles are a totally subjective thing and most people either love them or hate them.
Given my usual hunting situations my Scout rifles have been perfect.

Quality scopes are key in my opinion. Kid #2 really likes my Marlin .450 but can't handle
The recoil so I set him up with a 336 in .35r similar to mine. I put on a cheap Tasco pistol scope. Even though he loves it I'm not thrilled with it. Not the right eye relief.

jb

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:57 pm

I disagree about glass being appropriate on a long term gun, but again, glass isn't truly a requirement on a "scout". Good irons as backup are on all my scoped rifles, but a spare scope if I was going somewhere so far out, and so hard to get parts, tho I don't know of such a place, other than deep interior or the far fringes Alaska, where it would be cost prohibitive to have parts flown in.

I like glass because it gives much more flexibilty in my abilty to shoot consistantly at various ranges and under various conditions. It's simply about efficiency.

cas · Post by **cas** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:59 pm

They don't work in our world.

We don't want "One gun for all jobs".

We want at least one gun for every conceivable job, even if it's jobs we will never have cause or opportunity to do.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:16 pm

I think the scout rifle concept is for special operations by highly experienced military guys and thats certainly not me or about 99.9% of everyone else. I've been a levergun man all my life but if I need some kind of a scout rifle, I'll grab my Colt LE 6940 with it's 2 X 7 Leupold loaded with 69 gr. Sierra BRHPBT's. It really can't get much better than the AR platform.-------------Sixgun

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:55 pm

Pete44ru wrote:[a 338-08 (is there a commercial name for that now?), ] - The .338 Federal.

As much as I like/use a short-action leverscout (Marlin 1894), IMHO, glass has NO place on a long term survival/wilderness rifle.

.

I disagree. Yea, it might fail, or the batteries will eventually die. But till something happens, scopes, reddots and holosights do aid in hitting your target. That's why I have a good ghost ring on mine as back up.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:57 pm

I find the idea of the scout rifle interesting but I don't much like the forward mounted scope. I tried it, and pretty much gave up on it. I find a low powered regular scope faster to use, and of better optics, better field of view, etc.

However, I do like light short and handy rifles, and the older I get, the less interested I am in much of anything that weighs much over eight pounds loaded, however I believe that a more or less standard sporter in .308 with a 2 x 7 Leupold variable, or for a really wide field of view a 1.5 x 5 variable to be about as good as it gets for a general purpose rifle, but it doesn't have to be a boltaction, and my favorite is an old steel framed BLR in 308 win with a 2 x 7 Leupold.

And for an ultra light gun, a Ruger Compact in .308 with a low power scope would probably be a very good choice.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:00 pm

cas wrote:They don't work in our world.

We don't want "One gun for all jobs".

We want at least one gun for every conceivable job, even if it's jobs we will never have cause or opportunity to do.

Sshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:03 pm

Rule number one: have a rifle...that pretty much sums it up for me... :)

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:18 pm

I've found that the forward-mount scout scope doesn't work for me all the time. When light is good the set-up is terrific, but in some light conditions it's hard to get a sight picture. I've found that co-witnessing a red-dot or holographic sight with a set of ghost-ring peeps work pretty well for the ranges I do most of my shooting at. I zero at 100yds.

Since both the red-dot and scout scope are on quick-detach hardware, I have the option to swap either on or off depending on the need or environment. The ghost-ring and front sight are permanent on the rifle. If the scope breaks and the batteries in the red-dot die, I've still got a dependable set of sights.

Just more stuff to carry around.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:29 pm

My wild west guns co-pilot in 457 mag/45-70 topped with a low powered leu old scope worked perfectly on the nelgui I shot two years ago. The scope gave me exact bullet placement in fading light. I liked it and hoped the 44 mag was going to turn out that way. The styer is at 6.7 pounds. It points very well. Shoots even better. I have gone on primitive long hunts with a flintlock. Never with a modern rifle. I'm planning on one this fall. Thinking the steyr will be on my shoulder when I do. I don't mind the glass at all

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:41 am

1892m wrote:Rule number one: have a rifle...that pretty much sums it up for me...

Along these lines, my Dad had a saying, "Every man should have at least one good rifle, and know how to use it". A WWII vet, his units designated "sniper", he knew rifles, and how to use them. It is a skill he passed on to me and me to my sons. It has held us all in good stead when needed.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:30 am

The Steyr scout is one of my favorite guns that I have ever had the pleasure to shoot. It's been a while, so I can't remember for sure, but I don't think it had iron sights on it. That is the one flaw I can find with it. I believe, as others have stated, that part of the definition of a good scout rifle is to have a backup iron sight system in addition to optics. As stated, sooner or later the optic will break or fail.

I am currently planning 2 scout rifle builds (3 if you count the AR-15). All will have optics plus ghost ring sights. The first is my Marlin 1985G with XS sights with a quick detach scope. Second is my 8MM Mauser. I guess my Pre 64 Win Model 70 Featherweight can also count as a scout rifle since it comes with factory iron sights in addition to the quick detach scope. I guess I'm pretty well set on the scout rifle department

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:29 am

The styer has fold down front and rear iron sights. I think the Col. Also indicated that the ammo should be abundant or readily available yet later on the rifle was offered in some more powerful cartridges but certainly not readily available ammo.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:47 am

No offense - but I stand by mt position, regarding that glass has no place in a long-term wildernass/survival situation.

YMMV, but IMHO there's playing/thinking/fantasizing about long-term wilderness survival, within the comfort range of home & hearth, and actually getting sranded/shafted - where there's NO support, NO running home for supplies or a backup scope, No shelter, and NO tools.

Sure, the scope's nice (I use them on several rifles) - but slippery rocks can easily introduce someone to the School of Hard Knocks, and then whaddya do ?

If someone's insistant on glass - it'd be best to have back up iron sights already mounted/zeroed.

.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:55 am

No offense taken and as mentioned, the styer has backup iron sights. Your point is well made

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:10 pm

What in the world is the point of a battle/hunting combo gun? It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and not a very good solution at that. It's worse for battle/HD/SD than about any semi auto made, it's not any better for hunting than a multitude of semi auto, military type guns available and not any better for HD/SD than any other bolt/pump/lever repeating carbine already available. The forward mounted scope is a non benefit for any gun with a detachable box or tubular magazine, as a matter of fact it can be a hindrance. And why in the world would you design a gun around the use of stripper clips (the only real reason to mount a scope up there)?

If it had been developed in 1935 it may of been the greatest battle implement of it's time yet out dated buy the end of WWII. For hunting it has zero benefits and would be about the last gun off my rack for civilian defence. If anyone else but Copper himself had promoted it they would of been laughed outta the room. Worth 2, 3 or 4 times the cost of a standard bolt action or lever gun? Wow. The idea pretty much puts Cooper back in the realm of all the other gun rag folk with too much time on their hands.

LK

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:09 pm

Pete44ru wrote:No offense - but I stand by mt position, regarding that glass has no place in a long-term wildernass/survival situation.

YMMV, but IMHO there's playing/thinking/fantasizing about long-term wilderness survival, within the comfort range of home & hearth, and actually getting sranded/shafted - where there's NO support, NO running home for supplies or a backup scope, No shelter, and NO tools.

Sure, the scope's nice (I use them on several rifles) - but slippery rocks can easily introduce someone to the School of Hard Knocks, and then whaddya do ?

If someone's insistant on glass - it'd be best to have back up iron sights already mounted/zeroed.

Well that's just it - back up irons already zeroed. What's wrong with that? Nadda.

Especially if, for this survival scenario rifle, one considers that a military grade optic like an ACOG is a logical choice, simply saying that glass has no place is very limiting in my view.

And regarding scout rifles, I don't "get it" - the concept has no draw for me. I very much like handy carbines and some of mine have mid mounted red dot sights on them, but that's about as close to the concept I seem to get. A bolt gun set up this way makes little sense to me, but that's just me - it's a hobby for most of us, do what sounds fun.

Oly

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:28 pm

I'm with Pete. I have a Winchester 94 Trapper in .30-30. Works so well, it's replaced the 20" carbine that's stood by the bedside to investigate those "things that bump in the night" outdoors. And with all due respect to Mr. Cooper, swinging it club style has no place in hand-to-hand; short, sharp two-handed jabs with either end do wonders to take the fight outta folks, especially a steel buttplate against the bridge of a nose!. Think, a "police nightstick". If it's empty, hand it to your attacker and draw your handgun... then empty it!

It has the advantage of either single or multiple round tactical reloads w/o removing any parts, accuracy to 200 yards, about the absolute limit of mine w/o a rest. And I've only been in one shooting scrape that exceeded that...

Although for all practical intents, my project Marlin in either C45S or 45 Colt might fill the bill for short range stuff. For out west, desert or plains area, a 300 yard range might be desired, but for eastern woods, suburbia or even small farm areas, it's probably unnecesary.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:58 pm

L_Kilkenny wrote:What in the world is the point of a battle/hunting combo gun? It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and not a very good solution at that. It's worse for battle/HD/SD than about any semi auto made, it's not any better for hunting than a multitude of semi auto, military type guns available and not any better for HD/SD than any other bolt/pump/lever repeating carbine already available. The forward mounted scope is a non benefit for any gun with a detachable box or tubular magazine, as a matter of fact it can be a hindrance. And why in the world would you design a gun around the use of stripper clips (the only real reason to mount a scope up there)?

If it had been developed in 1935 it may of been the greatest battle implement of it's time yet out dated buy the end of WWII. For hunting it has zero benefits and would be about the last gun off my rack for civilian defence. If anyone else but Copper himself had promoted it they would of been laughed outta the room. Worth 2, 3 or 4 times the cost of a standard bolt action or lever gun? Wow. The idea pretty much puts Cooper back in the realm of all the other gun rag folk with too much time on their hands.

LK

The point of a general purpose gun is to do many things well. Its a tool for many purposes. The point of a defensive gun is to defend oneself. If it's sitting in the truck or gun safe at home, and not available at the moment of need, it's pretty much useless. That's part of the reasoning of a shorter, lighter gun, and one reason most of us like leverguns. The scout rifle concept is based around a gun with a bit more power and range than most levers, and being handy enough to carry on you. It's also one of the reasons the scope was mounted forward, it's easy to carry a bolt gun with your hand around the middle of it at the balance point. The stripper loading was just one reason of several. The final development of the concept is a pretty decent general purpose gun, tho the details seem to hang many up. I see many comments, here and other places, and they make me think that some didn't ever read the concept idea of the gun. They may not suite everyone, and their particular uses, but I think it's a valid concept in it's own right, and can be modified to ones needs, or elements used to ones dicretion. There are many valid variations on the theme, depending on ones area and use, but a gun with a forward mounted scope isn't a "scout", any more than a car with a convertible roof or sun roof is a sports car.

I disagree that self loading gun is the only valid choice for defensive use. Yes, they are good, some very good, but being a self loader isnt the only valid criterion. A gun that's fast handling, easy to carry, and powerful enough to decisively stop a fight or stop a vehicle are all part of the equation. As to handling, what's more important, how many rounds a gun holds, and how fast it reloads, or how fast you can make a hit? Yes, some rounds on board are good, how many is enough is another question. What's needed for an arm capable of full auto fire, and group tactics like suppresive fire isn't always what needed for an individual alone. Shooting very quickly and very well is more of an issue to many folks, including me. Those thay have used the scout types in Gunsites Defensive Rifle classes have generally all been able to hit a flying clay bird on straightaway shots, some good shots could hit several in a row out of 10. On a side note, I've shot various plate and action shoot games. I shoot a Smith DA revolver better than a 1911 when reloads aren't a factor. For that matter, I've shot better scores with a SA revolver than a 1911, I simply shoot revolvers much better than 1911's, even tho I've shot 1911's for many years. Which is the better choice for a defensive gun for me? I prefer a gun I shoot best/fastest. 1911's have never been natural handling guns to me, I've never been able to hit running rabbits or things thrown in the air with one, and I have with revolvers. I understand their supposed advantages (mainly speed of reloads), but the bottom line is, I'm far less likey to even need a reload when I shoot the particular gun better. Same idea with a rifle. Fast handling and good shooting trump magazine capacity for me.

I hardly ever get in gunfights, but always carry a rifle out in the hills, and always have one in my vehicle. I've carried various self loaders, none are as handy to carry as a 94 Winchester or even a sporter bolt gun. I gave up carrying an ar, ak, h-k, m1-a, m-1, mini-14, or whatever years ago, they are plinkers or range toys to me, not to mention the power factor, most self loaders are minor caliber, and are heavier and bulkier than any comparable manually operated gun in a similar caliber range. Pound for pound, and size for size, you can just get more power from manually operated arm. I opt for larger caliber over capacity, and handier, sleeker carry, than a bulky chunker of a gun to carry (I feel folding stocks only add to the bulky/chunkiness of a self loader. Yes they make them shorter, but they also become wider and are still chunky in the vertical plane, most handle like fence posts, and some are wobbly, like most underfolders.). My tromping around in the hills gun may become a defensive arm at some point, but it's first and formost my tromping around in the hills and "always in the truck" gun. I'm pretty confidant that what works well in the hills will do what needs to be done if things go bad. Being able to hit running rabbits and things thrown in the air with my rifle means more to me than if it holds detachable 20/30 rd mags, etc. It's more likely to be over before the gun is empty when one can shoot very quickly and well. I know my gun and what I can do with it, tho reloading isn't that tough when one is familar with their arm. If one looks at all the factors and chooses a self loader, fine, but I feel many simply go along with the common perception without looking at all the factors, and what the individual themself can actually do with one. Self loaders just aren't my first choice after having many and using them. My choice may not be anyone elses, but I haven't seen much discussion as to exactly why a self loader is "better" other than battelfield ideas, and imaginary doomsday scenarios. I'm open to hear others ideas, I'm just expounding on my experience.

The best gun to have when things go bad is the one you have with you. A short, handy to carry gun in a potent caliber is what most of us will have on us if we actually carry much. A short, sleek, handy bolt gun or a short lever gun are both way up the list for me. Call it a scout if you want, (tho I dont, I just like the idea of a short handy rifle) but it's what you have in hand or next to you that's going to be of most use, theoretical advantages of "better" guns aside. If you only keep a long gun in your vehicle, about anything may do, and if you are only concerned with the zombie apocalypse or foriegn invasion a battle rifle is looking pretty good. For most real life and actualy carrying a long gun around in the filed, day in and day out, I think there are better choices. I quit carrying them around years ago. Most got traded off for things I use more.

"Battle" rifle was mentioned. We, as indivduals aren't in battle as in a war. A battle rifle is indeed better for battles, but a defensive situation with a civilian individual isn't the same, and the arm that's best for battle isn't neccesarily the only valid choice for defensive use. That was part of the original concept of a scout rifle. It wasn't a battle rifle, it's lighter and handier than a battle rifle, while retaining range and power, it was a general purpose rifle capable of being used for fighting. Fighting isn't it's primary purpose, just as a scout (person) isn't primarly involved with fighting, but a scout rifle is quite capable of functioning as a fighting rifle in capable hands. Different purposes, and different arms needs.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:42 pm

To add to Malamute's thinking... the difference between a battle rifle and a scout, if it helps you, think of the differences between a M-1 Carbine and a Garand.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:26 pm

Malamute said it all in a way that its hard to defend another's position. Nice work!

I agree with almost everything he wrote, but in the back of my mind there's always that nasty scenerio-----the scenerio where you are attacked by multiple individuals, whether 2 footed or 4. If that happens, you are going to need fast and furious follow up shots all with the capability of a fast reload with plenty of ammo. The .223 round sure allows that in a fast, easy to tote compact AR. About the only thing its marginal on is a big bear and that can be evened out with the 30 round capability

I am addicted to leverguns and single action Colts, but I'll choose a 1911 (the only real auto

) in 45 and a collapsible stock AR with the 1-7 twist anytime I'm "scouting", in a NEED to eat, or to defend myself. My Colt 6940 has quick detachable scope mounts so if I somehow smash it, I pop off the scope in about 3 seconds and thumb up the first class flip-up irons.

Like Malamute, my hands are also moulded for the levergun and revolver but I believe anyone can get sufficently good with a minimal amount of practice with about anything, even a bolt action Mossberg shotgun with a cutts on it used by a left handed rifle dude like me.

----------------Sixgun

Griff, when you say "scout", does that mean just scouting around or does it mean the possibility of possibly encountering bad people?

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:31 pm

I used an Enfield 303 with a 19.5" barrel and a forward mounted "scout" scope. The rifle was a tad shorter in the stock in it's standard military wood. The scope was set in rings that quick detached. The rifle retained its military iron sights. There was also a light/laser combo mounted in a universal mount that was attached to the barrel just in front of the forearm. It held 6 rounds in the magazine and a 15 round magazine was available although I did not use it. This is a "scout rifle" in ever sense of the original concept. It has ample power for game or man at close and long range. As far as a defensive rifle, well once a threat is identified, the further away you can eliminate it the safer you are. Therefore, the scope can be an asset for whatever scenario you can think up that would have an attack start 100 meter or more out. In about 10 seconds the scope could be removed if the fight got closer.
For hunting purposes, there are several foreseeable options. You could have the sights and scope set for two different loads, you could carry a back-up scope or another scope for a second (or third) loading and you can move with a lighter, quick pointing gun while the scope is in a carrier on your belt or backpack and sit with a scope-sighted rifle to take advantage of longer ranges or low-light. Besides the Enfield, I have used an 1886 Win with a custom scout scope mount. I used it extensively in South Africa on over a dozen species. One thing nice about the forward mounted scope is that anyone can shoot it without fear of getting whacked with the scope when shooting full power loads. Another plus was the ability to separate the scope and rifle for transportation. Of course, that rifle couldn't be fitted with a conventionally mounted scope over the action anyway. I also use my boys rifle, a Win 94 in 360DW. It has a peep sight, conventional scope bases and a lever rail scout scope mount. For the little person, the forward weight of the scope keeps the muzzle rise and recoil down so they can use it. It also allows for imperfect head position on the stock and eliminates fear of scope cut. It could easily be used defensively with 38 or 357 mag ammo, or 9 rounds of 360. At 100 yards it hits hard with the 180gr at 1920 fps and drops only 4.5" at 150 yds. Within those parameters decent sized game and any man could easily be dealt with and the whole package is light, handy and compact. The Steyr rifle has an excellent reputation and is a good choice for multi-tasking with your rifle.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:38 pm

I think we all yearn for that one rifle that does everything reasonably well...

It always hits what we point it at, out to a reasonable distance,
It always functions, regardless of weather, or ammo, or user faults.

In short, it is basic, but dependable.

Not the most accurate, nor the most powerful, nor the fastest shooting - but never inadequate to the task.

I think most of the time our 'scout' rifle is one we've just got lots of experience with, shared trophies great and small, and huddled with in thunderstorms, blizzards, and dark of night.

What is the 'ideal' scout rifle...? Hard to say. Depends on terrain, politics, and weather...
Depends on whether there are bears around.

Depends on what gun most recently impressed us, or a friend, or bailed us out of a tight situation.

This week, it's my Ruger Alaskan, in .375 Ruger.

Why? No real reason, other than it's the first really powerful rifle I've had, and seems surprisingly light to handle, surprisingly accurate, and perhaps if loaded down when needed, a candidate for the 'one gun that can do most anything reasonably well'.

Granted, it's not a levergun, but whatever is on the receiving end of it won't care very long.

Next week, it will probably be my .45 Colt Rossi, just because I'll realize I don't need the power of a .375 for anything I'm likely to encounter in Indiana, and I'll realize that I'm far more likely to load up 1,000 rounds of .45 Colt and actually practice enough to do MY part of the 'scout rifle' task, than I am to shoot up even 100 rounds of expensive .375 Ruger fodder.

After that...? Likely, my "go-to" gun or "scout rifle" will remain a medium-power, medium-weight, non-optically-sighted (or low-power optics, with metal backups), levergun or bolt-action. Probably .357 Mag, .44 Mag, or .45 Colt most of the time; someday maybe for a week or so I'll decide my .32-20 was "good enough for grandpa" and choose it, and some other time I'll decide it really needs to be a .308 like Jeff Cooper says (and if times are good, it may be my excuse to get something other than that heavy old Savage .308 - maybe even the Ruger 'Scout' model).

Since I don't have any "medium weight" bolt-actions other than the Ruger Alaskan (I've got a bull-barreled Savage, bull-barreled Ruger, and a couple light weight .22 LR's), my "scout rifle" will likely be a levergun, most weeks...

I'll always be 'scouting' for the next 'scout rifle'...

cas · Post by **cas** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:59 pm

And I have a lever scout that Sixgun isn't real fond of.

While I've started down that road at least twice now without getting there, eventually I will build an AR with a scout scope setup just to see how it works.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:59 am

cas wrote:And I have a lever scout that Sixgun isn't real fond of.

I have a .44 Marlin, 444 Marlin and a 30-30 Marlin all set up the same way for my 'Scout' rifles

The .44 is the one that is in my hand when I start to worry since its 10+1. Plus, it hangs behind the wood cook stove and is my go-to chicken stealin' coyote getter

2x22

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:51 am

Very well thought out and said Malamute. You obviously took some time and it showed. Thanks for the work. But...........

While there are things that I agree with, namely a preference for lighter faster handling guns, the bolt action scout rifle still has little appeal to me. Especially for a substantial amount of extra coin outta my pocket. As a matter of fact you're well written statement does a much better job of pushing an off the shelf .30/30 lever gun as the best all purpose rifle, not Cooper's scout rifle. Like it or not the scout is heavily pushed as a defensive firearm and many of it's concepts were included for defensive reasons, many of which have little to no benefit to the civilian market (Flash hider? Come on now.). Features added for those reasons are like putting lipstick on a pig. Let's take the worst of the current repeating platforms for the job (bolt, lever, pump and semi) and try to make it a better SD/HD rifle. Doesn't make sense. I can't think of one feature added for sporting uses.

Yes we all like the idea of a do everything well rifle. There is literally truck loads of sporter bolt actions (not to mention lever actions) already available that will serve us just as well as the scout at a fraction of the cost. Maybe I shouldn't say just as well. A detachable box magazine could be considered an improvement and you made a case for forward mounted scopes (although I think any carry benefit is offset by the negatives). But how much are those worth?

IMO, adding any SD/HD features to a bolt action rifle in today's world is like putting lights and lasers on a SA revolver or designing a .22lr SD/HD gun and tripling the price. If defense is even the slightest concern a better starting platform is called for. If it's not as much of a concern than my 18.5" Savage, a Remington M7, A Ruger Hawkeye compact, etc, etc will serve our needs just fine.

LK

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:53 am

Malamute put it well.

Also remember a flash suppressor was never part of the original requirement (only size, weight, caliber, options).

Cooper designed this idea with others in 1983/1984 or so. A great many options now exist that then didn't. He even said that electronic sights would probably do very well for the same idea (rapid, eyes open shooting) but AT THAT TIME, they did not. Quick detach mounts which kept their zero did not then reliably exist. Calibers in other than 5.56mm (which he did not like) in an AR platform did not then exist.

But his point was specifically this wasn't a rifle to get into a running firefight with laying down suppressive fire. It was a general hunting rifle that in a pinch, you could get off a few rounds aimed before running for it (and repeating as necessary) as he knew for infantry work, bolt guns were long outdated.

Most of the 'defensive' features has use in hunting. Backup sights? Duh. I think this should always be an option.

Either charger-fed or detachable magazine? No reason not to reload in a hurry, and in some situations (African lion, bear, etc) potentially a lifesaver.

Bipod? (never a requirement but handy), while I don't use them much, they have their place in making the first shot count.

I like the general idea, and a Ruger Scout will end up in my inventory in the next year or two.

Those with a lot of time on the new Ruger state that an Aimpoint Micro red dot backed up by a 3X magnifier in a flip mount does extremely well at short range or fast moving targets, since you either have zero-mag fast reflex sight or 3X scope at will. And removing those to add a conventional scope works well for stand hunting.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:51 pm

BigSky56 wrote:So your'll looking at 300 yds for elk, moose,etc . A savage 99 with blind magazine, mags are easy to loose, uses SP bullets and is a controlled round feed rifle you can glass it or not can be had in a bunch of calibers or rebarrel to what you want on the 300 sav case, 308 case or 284 case. You could have it in take down so that you could run a varmit round and biggame round. You can get a MPI synth stock for it and head for the hills. 300 sav kills elk just fine. danny

+1, But my choice is a 99A in .308WCF. with open sites of your choice.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:13 pm

Sixgun wrote:Griff, when you say "scout", does that mean just scouting around or does it mean the possibility of possibly encountering bad people?

There's always that possibility.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:41 pm

Some good comments all around.

I wasn't intending to specifically promote the scout rifle, other than put things in perspective on its design and intent. I too, like others, don't like all design elements of the final concept, tho I apprecitate the time and thought that went into it. For my uses, I find a slightly different package suits me. The bottom line for me is, I learned from the concept, it gave me some food for thought, and I decided what to work towards with my projects with that input and my own experience and needs.

The factory Steyr Scout, and the other factory versions all had some variations from the original concept, but all are usable. I didn't quite "get" the flash suppresor on the Ruger either. I find most muzzle widgets reflect a lot of noise/muzzle blast back towards the shooter, which I don't like. They don't seem to bother many folks, so far be it from me to critisize them. They can always be taken off.

On a side note, in Coopers column years ago, he mentioned correspondance from several folks asking what would be a good alternative to a "full scout" project or expensive factory rifle. He responded that a good alternative was to buy a Ruger 77 ultralight with a quality fixed 4x scope, and "shoot it a lot". Not a bad suggestion, tho I like just little more barrel and don't mind a little extra weight over what the ultralight weighed.

Yes, I agree with you, the 30-30 makes a very good general purpose rifle, especially with good sights, and perhaps a scope. I like my 94 Winchester a lot, but have not taken it out in the hills as often since grizzlies have become more common all around my area. The 94 is a truly great gun, and is plenty for a vast majority of uses and users, tho I like a bit more range in general, and now, with the bears hanging around more in lower country, a bit more power. I like the Winchester 71, the 86 carbine, tho the 86 doesnt give as much practical range. I'm working on a project 94 big bore in 356 cal. It's getting high grade wood, rifle fore end and magazine attachment, a small front ramp like the extralight rifles, sourdough front sight, express rear, a Leupold 2-7x compact, and eventually want to have bases made to use the factory Ruger rings. I still often take a bolt gun in '06 or 35 Whelen out for walks and tooling around tho. Looking forward to getting the short Ruger 77 done also, it should be a nice mountain/carry gun. My projects are in slow motion mode, as finances are a bit tight at the moment, but in time they will be done.

I used to carry only iron sighted guns, but have truly come to appreciate good glass on a rifle. I like having the added level of precision, and the abilty to shoot well in poorer light. I think in terms of covering my dogs when out, not about sportmanship, and waiting for a better shot. I like having 300 yard precision ability on demand. We'll have to see how the 356 works out in that role. The 220 gr Speer bullets have a decent BC, and good reputation with the guys in Alaska.

I believe much of the attaction of the bolt action for a general purpose gun is, they are very simple, tend to be about as reliable as a brick (I believe Tamara mentioned something to that effect regarding Mausers in particular), and can be made very lightweight for any given caliber and power range.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Disclosure: I have never been a Jeff Cooper fan. His pontificating get old real fast!

That said, I didn't get the whole Scout thing when Cooper started beating the drum for one years ago. I still don't get it. It is a bundle of compromises rolled into once package.

My idea of a perfect "Scout" rifle is the 03A3 Springfield.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm

Malamute wrote:Some good comments all around.

I wasn't intending to specifically promote the scout rifle, other than put things in perspective on its design and intent. I too, like others, don't like all design elements of the final concept, tho I apprecitate the time and thought that went into it. For my uses, I find a slightly different package suits me. The bottom line for me is, I learned from the concept, it gave me some food for thought, and I decided what to work towards with my projects with that input and my own experience and needs.

The factory Steyr Scout, and the other factory versions all had some variations from the original concept, but all are usable. I didn't quite "get" the flash suppresor on the Ruger either. I find most muzzle widgets reflect a lot of noise/muzzle blast back towards the shooter, which I don't like. They don't seem to bother many folks, so far be it from me to critisize them. They can always be taken off.

On a side note, in Coopers column years ago, he mentioned correspondance from several folks asking what would be a good alternative to a "full scout" project or expensive factory rifle. He responded that a good alternative was to buy a Ruger 77 ultralight with a quality fixed 4x scope, and "shoot it a lot". Not a bad suggestion, tho I like just little more barrel and don't mind a little extra weight over what the ultralight weighed.

Yes, I agree with you, the 30-30 makes a very good general purpose rifle, especially with good sights, and perhaps a scope. I like my 94 Winchester a lot, but have not taken it out in the hills as often since grizzlies have become more common all around my area. The 94 is a truly great gun, and is plenty for a vast majority of uses and users, tho I like a bit more range in general, and now, with the bears hanging around more in lower country, a bit more power. I like the Winchester 71, the 86 carbine, tho the 86 doesnt give as much practical range. I'm working on a project 94 big bore in 356 cal. It's getting high grade wood, rifle fore end and magazine attachment, a small front ramp like the extralight rifles, sourdough front sight, express rear, a Leupold 2-7x compact, and eventually want to have bases made to use the factory Ruger rings. I still often take a bolt gun in '06 or 35 Whelen out for walks and tooling around tho. Looking forward to getting the short Ruger 77 done also, it should be a nice mountain/carry gun. My projects are in slow motion mode, as finances are a bit tight at the moment, but in time they will be done.

I used to carry only iron sighted guns, but have truly come to appreciate good glass on a rifle. I like having the added level of precision, and the abilty to shoot well in poorer light. I think in terms of covering my dogs when out, not about sportmanship, and waiting for a better shot. I like having 300 yard precision ability on demand. We'll have to see how the 356 works out in that role. The 220 gr Speer bullets have a decent BC, and good reputation with the guys in Alaska.

I believe much of the attaction of the bolt action for a general purpose gun is, they are very simple, tend to be about as reliable as a brick (I believe Tamara mentioned something to that effect regarding Mausers in particular), and can be made very lightweight for any given caliber and power range.

The model 71 carbine was designed to work under the worst conditions alaska could throw at it and still flatten a brown bear close and elk and moose out to 200 yards. smooth feedingist rifle i ever shouldered. The .356 wcf is close enough to the great 348 not to matter, but, you get it in a 61/4 lb package with 2 more rounds.@ excellent scout rifles.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:36 pm

Well, Mescalero made some very fine points. Still, as with all things each person has his/her own opinion as to what is best for them. As I said, the concept is sound, the execution is subjective. Personally, I'm not a real great fan of bolt guns. Yes, my first centerfire rifle, and my first left handed centerfire rifle are bolt guns. But, I'm just more at home with a levergun. Falling back on my dad's words of advice, "Every man should have at least one good rifle, and know how to use it", I will expand on my feelings, every man should use the rifle he is most comfortable with. That makes the knowing how to use it part jus that much simpler.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:02 pm

ANYBODY KNOW WHAT I SAID?

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:35 pm

This seems like a lot of mentalizing about rifles people don't really use for anything because they are not best at anything. It seems to be about a mental state. Imagination - playing commando in the canyons of the mind. But a pistol cartridge carbine with a scope in detachable mounts will do many short jobs. A Model Seven with a scope will likely be a light handy choice in 308 or whatever would be great for medium and that is all that is necessary - scope way out there - what ??? More exposed to damage and less useful.

But you can have anything you want and this is a discussion board but I doubt if it is better for anything.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:50 pm

Still don't know what I was alleged to have said, I never ventured an opinion on this thread.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:52 pm

cas wrote:And I have a lever scout that Sixgun isn't real fond of.

Yea Cas, why don't you tell the boys what you did! OK, I'll tell 'em.........Cas hands me that 16" Marlin with an unknown load in it. I shoot the sucker and it about jumps out of my hands. I saw stars for a minute or two. I believe it was a 400 gr jacketed pushing 2K. The rifle weighs about 5 pounds.

Charles said it right and so did Doc. Its all in your preference and what you feel comfortable with.-----Sixgun

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:55 pm

Think he meant Malmute

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:57 pm

Fellow out here has two that are similar to that made by Mcpherson.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:59 pm

Oh,ok

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:12 pm

But I would love to hear your thoughts on the topic. Be well my friend