Slightly OT: Three position (Wing) Safeties

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:47 pm

Is it just me or are these things horrible contraptions?

A few years ago we were filming a bear hunter in a stand. The bear came and when the hunter flipped the safety off the racket sent the bear running for the woods. I had another similar incident where a fallow deer was just feet from a ground blind. He came in from behind and surprised us. Flipping the safety off spooked the deer back into the brush.

Now today. We had a few hunters shooting Russian Boar. They wanted to stalk close and I thought it would be more hair-raising to shoot them during a stand off or a charge.

One hunter had a new Ruger in 375 Ruger. He absolutely could not flip the safety off with the gun mounted, or even on the way up. Another hunter with a different gun in 338 Winchester had to take his right hand off the gun completely to manipulate the safety.

The third hunter, shooting a Sako 85 in 338 Federal had no problem flipping off the tang safety as he mounted the gun. When we were close I had my 1886 cocked with the tang safey on. No problem flicking it off as I mounted the gun. Last gun was my friend and helper. He was using a 25 year old Ruger 77 in 300 Win Mag. The tang safety clicked off as the threw the gun up.

I would be very interested in buying a 375 Ruger with the 20" or 23" barrel. However I can't bring myself to use that darn 3 POSTITION SAFETY!

I hope Sako 85, Savage 110 or another company with a tang safety chambers a good gun in 375 Ruger.

What's everyone here think about the 3 position wing safety?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:01 pm

86er,

My birthday Marlin MR-7 has one of those 3 position wing safeties. I've noticed it's stiff to work, but I haven't noticed any noise. But then I wasn't listening for it.
Since the rifle is fairly unused I'm hoping it will smooth up as I use it.

Joe

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:08 pm

There is technique and thoughtful management necessary but I've never found even the Mauser safety to be an impediment. However, that Arisaki or Mosin-Nagant type is pretty much useless for such things. Ok for a stand or still hunting by yourself. What you're talking about is that pre-64 Winchester type safety, right? I never saw a problem with those. A safety that actually locks the firing pin should be preferable to a safety that only locks the sear.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:18 pm

I'm not familiar with the Pre-64 Winchester safeties.
The one on my MR-7 works like this:
Wing forward = fire; bolt is free to work and firing pin is not blocked

Wing in center = safe; bolt is free to work, firing pin is locked

Wing to the rear = safe; bolt is locked, firing pin is locked.

I figured that for hunting to carry it with the safety in the center position.
One forward push and your ready to fire. Since I've never hunted with one of these I'm not sure if I'm right or not.

Joe

Cimarron Red · Post by **Cimarron Red** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:52 pm

J Miller,

Model 70 Winchester safeties -- both pre-and post 1964 -- function just as the one on your MR-7 does.

86er,

I prefer the 3 position safety. Although tang safeties are more convenient, most of them (in my experience) block the trigger whereas a 3 position safety actually disengages the striker from the sear and this is a safer design. I agree that the 3 position safety can be noisy, but this can be eliminated or at least minimized by manipulation of the safety. Instead of pushing it off with his thumb, the shooter should ease it off by grasping the wing between the thumb and forefinger and easing the safety off. Of course, this is more deliberate than pushing the safety off with the thumb, but if you have to get the shot off in a hurry, the noise becomes irrelevant.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:57 pm

Cimarron Red,

Thanks for the info. I learned something today. And your method of manipulating the safety is how I've found myself working it. So I'll just keep on keepin on.

Joe

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:04 pm

I agree that the 3 position safety is, well safer. I can see keeping it quiet if you are conscious about it too. However, I don't condone moving around with a round in the chamber, EXCEPT for dangerous game. A rifle like a 375 Ruger is at home in dangerous game country. I don't think that is the right place for the 3 position safety. Under potentially dangerous conditions you have to be able to get the safety off instantly while mounting or immediately upon mounting the gun. Give me a tang safety there any time.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:22 pm

You might try using the gun in the manner that Peter Hathaway Captisck had his clients do it according to his books. He once had a gun discharge when a safety was "flicked off" so he came up with this.

Capstick would have his client to chamber a round in a bolt action rifle and as the bolt handle was turned down into the lock-up position they would pull the trigger so the firing pin would slowly lower to the at rest position. when game was spotted the rifle is brought up, the handle is raised straight up, then lowered back down to cock the rifle.
I've done this for years ever since I first read about it and I do truly feel much safer. I graduated high school one year behind a class mate who lost the lower portion of his leg when a shotgun discharged as the safety was being applied.

That's why I love my Handi Rifles and lever actions.

Rusty <><

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:49 pm

If the chamber is empty, you don't need the safety at all IFF you load only just before you shoot. Many use traditional leverguns in just that way. Somebody injured by a ND and it is because the bearer was pointing the weapon in the wrong direction. The biggest safety is the guy holding the gun.

I don't know how you want to manage it or how you manage muzzleloading hunters but lots of folks hunt everything with one up the spout and the gun on "safe". Makes this an interesting topic indeed.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:20 pm

I went downstairs and finished priming some '06 cases and while I was there I played with the MR-7 and it's winged safety.
86er is right. When pushed so it snaps forward to fire that safety makes quite a snap. And when shouldered as to shoot I couldn't snap it off without moving my hand from the stock.

This will take some getting used to. When I get to the range I'll have to see what kind of technique I can come up with. It will take a deliberate act to disengage it, that's for sure.

Joe

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:19 am

Growing up with Mausers and a model 70 I have always prefered the 3 position safety not even considering a Ruger 77 until the newer generation Mk.IIs with 3 position safety. I also prefer the control round feed action of pre-64 and Classic model 70s. I've never been charged by a beast while using a bolt gun, only when using my trusty 1894 Marlin which resulted in one dead pig.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:25 am

[chamber a round in a bolt action rifle and as the bolt handle was turned down into the lock-up position they would pull the trigger so the firing pin would slowly lower to the at rest position. when game was spotted the rifle is brought up, the handle is raised straight up, then lowered back down to cock the rifle.
I've done this for years ever since I first read about it and I do truly feel much safer. ]

Well, don't feel too safe - That's in about the same class as loading all six chambers of an original Colt SAA,and feeling safe - NOT !

IMO, Capstick did it for noise reduction while stalking dangerous game, not safety.

The reason it's not "safe", is that with the firing pin resting on the primer like that, any blow to the rear of the bolt shroud (which carries the rear of the firing pin/striker) will fire the round in the chamber.

"3-position" safeties work on the principle of physically blocking the striker/firing pin fall - so how "smooth" they work is of no consequence to safety, as long as they do work.

Keep in mind that most generally slightly cam back the firing pin as they are applied, and so are under some mainspring pressure when"on safe" - which is why you hear the cocking piece hitting the sear ("click") when the safety's released.

That doesn't mean that an owner can't use a couple of methods to make the 3-position safety use smoother and quieter.

The safety's sliding surfaces cam be stoned smoother and lighly lubricated.

A new gun can also benefit from many, many, multiple safety manipulations, "dry"(no lube present) to seat-in the working surfaces.

Cimarron Red · Post by **Cimarron Red** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:01 am

Well, on this issue, there is a full range of opinion. I just went to my gun room to handle three models 70. On all three rifles I could disengage the safety (noisily) with the rifle shouldered with my thumb or my trigger finger by making a small adjustment of my grip hand. There's no doubt that the tang safety is more convenient and probably faster. Nonetheless, I prefer the safety of the three position safety. As I recall, the tang safety Ruger 77 locks the bolt when the safety is engaged, meaning that the safety must be disengaged to remove an in-battery round. Not so with the three position. Also, you can test feed all your hunting ammunition while the safety is engaged.

And as I said in my previous post, there's no doubt that a quick disengagement of the three position safety makes noise -- but not as much as cycling the bolt to chamber a round on a gun carried with no cartridge in the chamber. If the shooter has the time, he should disengage the safety deliberately, and quietly. If he must take a quick shot, the noise is inconsequential.

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:15 am

I messed around with the 3 thing safety too. I agree it is safe and with some forethought I can disengage it quietly, but slowly. I still would not condone moving from place to place with a round in the chamber, however if you're going to this is one of the safest systems to do so.

Right about the old Ruger 77 tang safety. You have to disengage it to open the bolt. Not real heartwarming.

In a gun for use on African dangerous game or NA bears and any other potentially dangerous criter the tang safety is more efficient when it needs to be disengaged in a flash.

Why can't I get a Ruger, CZ or some other gun with a tang safety in 450/400 (404 Jeffery) or 375 Ruger? Oh well. I stick with the 1886. Cocked with tang safety on when trouble lurks. Big time muzzle awareness. Hammer down, safety on otherwise.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:37 am

[Why can't I get a Ruger, CZ or some other gun with a tang safety in 450/400 (404 Jeffery) or 375 Ruger?]

How about a tang safety .376 Steyr ?

http://www.steyr-aug.com/steyr_scout.htm

Bramble · Post by **Bramble** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:35 pm

beat me to it Pete.

Firing pin resting on the primer is not a safe condition, especially in Mauser or type actions. It can and will fire if dropped or bumped in the right?wrong place.

crs · Post by **crs** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:29 pm

86er;
My pre-64 Winchester featherweight .308 must be well broken in, as the 3 position safety works easily. The only time it was difficult to operate was when it had sand in it and a good cleaning took care of that.
I like the control the 3 position provides and have learned to take it off quietly when game is very close. Same for cocking the hammer on my 1892 and 1886 - it can be done without noise with a little practice.

BUT, I agree with you that a properly operating tang safety is easier, faster, and quieter.

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:44 pm

If one simply must "flick" the 3-thing safety forward to fire, try putting a tiny section of rubber tubing or an O-ring around the safety "handle." It will deaden the sound of the impact.

This safety is meant for purposeful manipulation, and not simply being released by the dominant thumb. I think this system is easily the best safety for a bolt-action rifle.

CraigC · Post by **CraigC** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:48 pm

While I prefer a Remington 700 type safety, the three position works fine for me as well. I don't manipulate ANY safety with game in sight without doing so carefully to prevent noise. Just flicking it off with the thumb is inviting a spook.

45-70 · Post by **45-70** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:18 am

86er,

I can see your point, but I've taken a Ruger M77 300WSM to Africa twice and have always had a round chambered with the 3 thing all the way back on true safe just before firing. The trick is to grip it with a lot of thumb and index finger and slowly move it all the way forward with your eyes on the game at hand, using your fingers as a buffer. I've never spooked wary African plains game doing it this way.

I have seen shooters do the "flick" thing and don't see a whole lot of thought going into it, especially when on stalk.

CraigC · Post by **CraigC** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:43 am

86er wrote:Why can't I get a Ruger, CZ or some other gun with a tang safety in 450/400 (404 Jeffery) or 375 Ruger?

How about the new #1 in .450/.400?

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:53 am

And then, there's this pristine-lookin', tang safety .458 M77 Ruger, I spotted F/S:

http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/014687.html