Mystery Solved, then more questions - Cleaning .22 LR

[FatJackDurham]

I have heard again and again that you don't clean 22s. This seems crazy to me, but I think I now get it.

I think what you don't do is clean the 22 bore with solvent. The reason given from Aluma-Lite is that the match grade 22 bullets are coated with wax that is intended to build up in the bore to lubricate the bullet flight. So, cleaning should only be a dry patch through after a hundred bullets or so.

However, it seems to me that you should clean your actions and whatnot like you would any gun.

So, questions:

1) Is this true?

2) Are ALL 22 bullets libricated, or just Lubealoy, or match grade rounds?

3) Is bore butter useful in 22 bores, or does it conflict with the lube on the rounds?

[Terry Murbach]

YOUR SUPPOSITIONS ARE TOTALLY INCORRECT.

[FatJackDurham]

So without any further info from you, let me suppose how I am wrong.

1) Cleaning - You must mean that I SHOULD clean with a solvent, which is different that what is said in this manufacturer post:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/support/rim ... enance.htm

2) I must NOT have to clean the action of the gun

3) None of the other questions were suppositions, they were questions.

[FatJackDurham]

http://www.schuemann.com/LinkClick.aspx ... 67&mid=445

Here is a good article with info about damagin Stainless bores.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I clean my .22's after each use typically. I will skip it sometimes if I know I'm going to be back at it the next weekend, but I would probably not go more than 500 rounds without cleaning. Certainly I clean that actions at the same time, being that they are usually dusted with powder fouling. There seems to be a tendency for manufacturers to use dirtier powders in the lower cost stuff for obvious reasons. I might shoot .22's a couple of weekends and get busy and then not take them out for 6 or 8 months or more. I can't imagine leaving that stuff in the bore for that length of time. Maybe it's just me.

All of that said, I'm not a benchrest shooter and I imagine that they have some special routines for caring for their bores during and between matches. However, they are also probably shooting some of the more expensive .22 ammo as well. Ammo with better grades of powder and external bullet lube in all likelihood.

[Hobie]

When I was shooting small-bore there was a strong voiced group that emphatically was against cleaning the BORE of their rifles but the actions were immaculate. Those who cleaned their bores often need several "fouling" shots to get back to where they'd been at the end of their last range session/match. That is now my point of view but I often check the bore for problems and if accuracy ever goes to pot (and sometimes it does) for no apparent reason, I thoroughly clean the bore.

[jnyork]

Unless your accuracy has completely gone south, there is little to nothing to be gained by cleaning the bore and if you do clean it you may find you have to fire anywhere from 10 to 30 rounds before the accuracy comes back. Clean chamber and action is fine, leave the bore alone. YMMV

PS, wanna have some fun? Go over to Rimfirecentral.com and ask the same question in the Comminity forum.

PS, I have never heard of anyone using Bore Butter on a rimfire bore, why dont you try it and report back if it increases accuracy, might be an interesting experiment.

[stew71]

I treat my .22's just like every other firearm in the safe. Hoppe's #9 bore cleaner and just a dab of oil in all the right places.

That whole "never clean a .22" must be some old wives tale. Never heard of it.

Edit: I had a Ruger 10/22 that had to be cleaned nearly after every session. It would gum up and jam like nobody's bidness. Sold it and never looked back.

[AJMD429]

I'D SAY YOUR SUPPOSITIONS ARE MOSTLY CORRECT ( )

At least in my experience, I pretty much never clean the barrels unless the muzzle gets stuck in a puddle or something. OTOH, I clean the actions (taking them apart even) fairly often, to get the powder/lube crud out. I'm just doing it for function mostly, as opposed to accuracy, but on my 'accurate' .22's, I do the same thing.

[Don McDowell]

You can go either route, but as others have said it may take a few rounds to get accuracy to settle back in.
Bore butter shouldn't harm a wit , in fact it's a common trick in the bpcr world to coat your bore with it before firing the first round so that there's less chance of a boreriding bullet nose leaving some lead puddles on it's way out the muzzle.

[piller]

I don't really know, but from my observations on my own firearms, I almost ruined an old Glenfield 60 from scrupulous cleaming. I brought back the accuracy using one of Paco's ACC'RZR tools. I have a ruger Mark II, a Ruger 10/22, and a Henry which have seen only mild cleaning of the bore to remove the worst of the fouling. I then lightly oil the bore and am done. So far the accuracy has been outstanding in all 3. I always clean the action as well as I can and lube it with Tetra Gun. For me, in the 3 specific firearms mentioned, cleaning the bore to shiny new looking brightness just doesn't seem necessary.

[COSteve]

I use to clean my 22 rifles like everything else as a matter of course until I started shooting my scoped Marlin Model 60 at targets out over 100yds and noticed that the first dozen or so shots were awful. I figured the barrel might just need warming up but after some trial and error I found that after a good cleaning I needed some 10-15 shots to get any decent groups back.

So, now I clean the actions by brushing them thoroughly and then hitting them with high pressure air from my air compressor. For the bore, I just run a dry bore snake down them twice. Then a bit of oil in the action and I'm ready for the next session where the accuracy is spot on from the very first shot.

[Mescalero]

You have a Marlin model 60?

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Chuck 100 yd]

What Terry Murbach said +1 more.
A carbon fouling ring will eventually build up at the beginning of the bore right where the case mouth ends. This ring will re size every bullet fires through it to make the bullet undersize for the bore.
As long as the rifle is shooting as it should no major bore cleaning is needed but once it goes sour you will need to scrub it out and fire a few to re season the bore and bring back its accuracy.
I have a Remington 40X that with selected ammo will put them all in the same hole at 50 yards until tho cows come home. It will get a thorough scrubbing some day when it wont shoot that way any more.
That rifle shot in the Olympics in the 60`s . I had to give
$60.00 for it but got my money back when I sold the Redfield Olympic sights of of it for $150.00.

[1894c]

You have a Marlin model 60?

Yep, I got one in 2000 for my son when he was 15. Unfortunately, at the time he wasn't interested in shooting and now that he is, he likes one of my 10/22s better:

great gun COSteve...one of my favorites too... :)

[L_Kilkenny]

You have a Marlin model 60?

Yep, I got one in 2000 for my son when he was 15. Unfortunately, at the time he wasn't interested in shooting and now that he is, he likes one of my 10/22s better:

Smart kid I'd say!

Cleaning a .22lr is always an interesting question. I've heard from high end comp shooters that say they haven't cleaned the bore in 1000's of rounds and I've heard from similer folk that clean the bore after every shooting session, sometimes even run a patch thru during shooting sessions. I'm not a comp shooter and won't pretend to be one but I don't beleive there is an exact science to it and most guys do things like this because that's what they "believe" works for them. I follow the same rules in cleaning for .22's that I do with all my guns. Clean em when I feel they need it and when I do I clean everything. Invariably my .22's will see more rounds down the tube before cleaning just because of the shear volume I shoot them is more, much more. Personally I see a drop off of function before a drop off in accuracy in ALL my guns but it's not like I'm measuring groups to know this for sure. I do beleive that most guns, centerfire and rimfire, shoot better after a few shots and I will rarely take a clean bore out in the field. Even on centerfires I generally sight in before season, clean the gun and then shoot a few rounds before I go hunting. During season they'll see some oil but unless I'm shooting a tremendous volume rarely will they see a solvent. Same goes for rimfires. During off season I clean em when I think they need it.

And yes, most if not all .22lrs will have a wax or wax-like lube on em.

LK

[InTheWoods]

Much of what I have read from most match shooters over the years is that cleaning the bore of a .22 is unnecessary. Ely, maker of probably the best match ammo in the world, evidentally shoots tens of thousands of rounds of ammo through their test barrels without cleaning and with no problems of accuracy loss.

All rimfire ammo is coated with a lube of some type. Even ammo that is copper washed had some type of dry lacquer-type lube over the wash. Match ammo generally is not copper washed and has a much more noticable greasy lube on it. All the lubes offer protection against rust and leading. If you remove the lube when cleaning, you must shoot enough shots down a bore to relube it enough to gain back full accuracy with the ammo you are shooting.

I have been shooting rimfires and centerfires for over 50 years. I carefully clean my centerfire bores and rarely clean my rimfire bores. I have an informal bench .22 (Sako Finnfire action, 2 oz. Jewell trigger, heavy stainless Lilja barrel, etc.) that I shoot thousands of rounds through without any noticable loss of accuracy. I do clean the bore every so often just because I can, and not because I think it really needs it. I do this mostly because I feel the chamber needs a good scrubbing and I might as well do the bore at the same time.

It seems from some of what I read that those that participate in formal matches that require handheld rifle (prone, 3-position, etc.) don't worry much about bore cleaning. Some of the top-notch benchresters do often wipe their bores with a dry patch during matches and feel it benefits their scores. These guys, though, are a different breed of shooter than most of us.

[FatJackDurham]

All rimfire ammo is coated with a lube of some type. Even ammo that is copper washed had some type of dry lacquer-type lube over the wash. Match ammo generally is not copper washed and has a much more noticable greasy lube on it. All the lubes offer protection against rust and leading. If you remove the lube when cleaning, you must shoot enough shots down a bore to relube it enough to gain back full accuracy with the ammo you are shooting.

Thanks for the info.

I have an informal bench .22 (Sako Finnfire action, 2 oz. Jewell trigger, heavy stainless Lilja barrel, etc.) that I shoot thousands of rounds through without any noticable loss of accuracy.

[drool] nice [/drool]

I do clean the bore every so often just because I can, and not because I think it really needs it. I do this mostly because I feel the chamber needs a good scrubbing and I might as well do the bore at the same time.

do you primarily use just one ammo, or lots of stuff?

Some of the top-notch benchresters do often wipe their bores with a dry patch during matches and feel it benefits their scores.

This matches the lilja website.

Thanks for the info.

[mikld]

As far as cleaning .22s many, many do not clean the bore or run a patch through to get out soot. I'll shove a dry patch through my handguns when I dip the action, but often not as I've heard clean .22lr barrels aren't as accutate as "dirty" barrels.

In case you're not familiar with the first answerer; just disregard those posts. The poster is very knowledgable, but has no social skills...

[El Chivo]

Lately I've been cleaning just the chamber of my .22, quickly with a Q-tip and Hoppe's #9, because of cases sticking in the chamber. Changing to Hoppe's has helped. But I haven't touched the bore itself in about 300 rounds. Seems to work fine.

Why is this revelation confined to .22lr? Wouldn't frequent cleaning ruin centerfire guns as well? Can't we just never clean any of our guns?

I've noticed wild first shots after cleaning but it seems to go right back to normal after that. Before shooting a silhouette match with a newly cleaned gun I would shoot at one swinger and then go start the match (and usually hit my first animal).

[retmech]

Some cast bullet shooters ( I'm one of them) rarely clean the barrels on their guns. My lever guns (.357) get shot regularly and unless I happen to try something different and get leading or accuracy starts to degrade I don't clean. The barrel is not going to rust, it has a coat of bullet lube in it. I have an S&W .38 spl that I use in Hunters Pistol silhouette that has had nothing but bullets down the barrel for literally years. The cylinder gets cleaned and the gun gets wiped down but that's it. If I absolutely have to hit something with a handgun, that's the one I use.
As far as cleaning with jacketed ammo I just don't know as I don't shoot jacketed ammo. I understand people wanting to clean their guns but for me if it doesn't need it I'd rather spend my time shooting.

[J Miller]

What's wrong with fouling shots?
Do you go out to the range and jump right into a match without testing your guns, sights, scopes, ammo?
Do you go hunting without verifying that your sights are still "on".
Do you believe that not cleaning the bore of your .22 RF is acceptable because the bullet lube left by the last bullet will protect it?
Do you believe that cleaning a rifle or handgun bore will wear it out?

If you believe these things you're delusional.

Target shooting by it's nature does not expose the guns to the same level of dirt, dust, moisture, and contamination as hunting, plinking, and general use.
I clean my guns, all of them, after each use unless I'm going back out in a few days.
I listened to the "knowledgeable x-spurts" one hot Arizona summer and didn't clean the bore of my 9422 the entire summer. Just blindly went out and shot it, then put it in the rack till the next time.
WHEN I FINALLY CLEANED IT, I FOUND RUST PITS IN THE BORE.
Those who advocate not cleaning .22s because the bullet's lube will protect the bore are full of pelosi. Not cleaning the bore of a rifle is negligence and it caused me a damaged rifle.
I was trained to keep my guns clean and maintained. For one summer I tried the lazy mans way and learned the errors of that mind set.

Joe

[Mescalero]

Joe,
Did you have a swamp cooler during that time frame?

[J Miller]

Joe,
Did you have a swamp cooler during that time frame?

Indeed I did. Before, during and after. That does not change the fact that had I cleaned and oiled the rifle properly there would have been no rust to make the pits.
I lived in AZ (Phoenix Valley) for nearly 40 years. Until that one summer I never had rust damage in the bores of any of my guns.

Joe

[retmech]

[quoteWhat's wrong with fouling shots?
Do you go out to the range and jump right into a match without testing your guns, sights, scopes, ammo?
Do you go hunting without verifying that your sights are still "on".
Do you believe that not cleaning the bore of your .22 RF is acceptable because the bullet lube left by the last bullet will protect it?
Do you believe that cleaning a rifle or handgun bore will wear it out?

If you believe these things you're delusional.][/quote]
To each his own my friend. A little testy today??

[L_Kilkenny]

Gee Joe, tell us how you really feel.......

You don't mind if my experience is 180 deg from yours do ya? I rarely clean my guns after each use and have never had an issue with rust in the bore even here in humid ol Iowa.

LK

[J Miller]

retmeck.
I think I'm channeling Terry Murbach lately.

LK,

I don't mind if you or anybody else has different experiences than I do. What I mind is those folks who talk like their way of doing something is the only way and if you do it different you're wrong.

Now, I admit when it comes to my views on cleaning and my speaking of those views I'm quite pointed and blunt.

I was taught to clean my guns. All of them. Each time. When I did that I never had a problem with rust. But the one time I listened to the other camp and did what they say they do, I ended up with a pitted bore.
So from experience I am convinced I am right about cleaning .22 RFs. And I won't keep my mouth shut.

I really don't intend to irritate everyone, but that's the way it is.

And so it goes.

Joe

[C. Cash]

Count me among the cleaning crowd. I don't over do it, and when I simply don't have time I don't worry about skipping the process a time or two. A clean rifle is a happy rifle. Done properly and without haste it will not wear a rifle's bore adversely, and is apart of the total experience. Things I do which seem to help:

-use a coated or brass rod. Wipe it every once in awhile if there is grit building up. I've heard the horror stories but have had no problems. Go slow, using patches cut consistently to the right size. Stuffing a big patch down the bore with an improper rod tip is where most folks get into trouble and screw up the rifling at the muzzle.

-use cotton flannel, not the thin/cheap jersey knit stuff. Cotton flannel looks fuzzy. It traps a lot more junk and will cut the clean time down.

-I use Ballistol....it is not carcinogenic but wear the nitrile gloves(SAMs or Lowes) anyway, as lead is coming out of that bore with the ballistol. It acts as both a solvent and protectant.

[Charles]

This is one of the areas where there is considerable disagreement. I don't pretend to have the answers but here is my thinking on the subject.

1. Back in the day, I fired 22 rifles in competition. We did not clean out rifles until the end of the match season. If we did, it took a hundred or so rounds to season the barrel and get it back to shooting like before in terms of accuracy. This is 4 postion shooting with very high quality rifles in serious high level competition. What we were after was the best possible accuracy all of the time.

We did clean the bolt from time to time. A little Hoppe's an a tooth brush did the job. We did check our sights and took a few "sighting shots" before every practice session or match.

2. These days I shoot in 22 pistol matches and I do clean the barrel, with a dry Bore-Snake. Crud will build up in the front end of the chamber and after a time can prevent the bolt from fully closing on a loaded round, and a Ruger MkII will fire in that condition resulting in a case head seperation and hot brass fragment flying out the ejection port. My pistol have been worked over by Clark and has a Douglas barrel and a match chamber. Also if the action of the Ruger MKII and III are not cleaned from time to time, they will malfunction. Lots of nasty black powder fouling build up there. These pistols will go many thousands of round between cleanings, but there will come a time, they must be cleaned to be reliable.

These are two things I learned by experience and not from reading stuff others wrote.

[Washita]

I've swung like a pendulum on this issue, going from scrupulously cleaning my rimfires after every outing to not cleaning the bore for really extended time periods. When I was cleaning every time, it often took 25-30 rounds to get my rifle shooting right again.

Recently I got an Anschutz 2013 BR50, and read the manual on cleaning. Anschutz says to run a couple of dry patches thru the bore after every shooting session, followed by an oily one, then just before shooting again, run a dry patch thru the bore. Then give the bore a good scrubbing after firing several thousand rounds (I think they said 5000, but I don't have the manual in front of me so I might be wrong.) I figger they know more than I do on the subject, so that's now what I do. And I don't have to shoot a lot of settling-in rounds at each outing. Seems to work just fine.

That said, I do know that many serious BR shooters clean their bore every time they get a chance, during a match. So I still don't know for sure what's best.

FWIW, I always use a bore guide and a carbon fiber rod when cleaning a gun.

[KCSO]

In ROTC we only cleaned our rifle bores whe absolutly necessary. After cleaning we had to shoot at least 50 rounds before we shot a match. Later on my own I tried to see if this was really necessary and fouond that it does take a few shots to get the bore back in shape for ultimate accuracy. If I remember right when I tried it grooups went from 1/2" with a freshly cleaned bore to 3/8" after the bore was seasoned. By the same token when testing ammunition you need to shoot 10-15 rounds of your different ammo before you shoot for a group.

[FatJackDurham]

This is one of the areas where there is considerable disagreement. I don't pretend to have the answers but here is my thinking on the subject.

1. Back in the day, I fired 22 rifles in competition. We did not clean out rifles until the end of the match season. If we did, it took a hundred or so rounds to season the barrel and get it back to shooting like before in terms of accuracy. This is 4 postion shooting with very high quality rifles in serious high level competition. What we were after was the best possible accuracy all of the time.

We did clean the bolt from time to time. A little Hoppe's an a tooth brush did the job. We did check our sights and took a few "sighting shots" before every practice session or match.

2. These days I shoot in 22 pistol matches and I do clean the barrel, with a dry Bore-Snake. Crud will build up in the front end of the chamber and after a time can prevent the bolt from fully closing on a loaded round, and a Ruger MkII will fire in that condition resulting in a case head seperation and hot brass fragment flying out the ejection port. My pistol have been worked over by Clark and has a Douglas barrel and a match chamber. Also if the action of the Ruger MKII and III are not cleaned from time to time, they will malfunction. Lots of nasty black powder fouling build up there. These pistols will go many thousands of round between cleanings, but there will come a time, they must be cleaned to be reliable.

These are two things I learned by experience and not from reading stuff others wrote.

Thanks!

I was wondering, what is a "match chamber"? Is it slightly snugger or more precisely machined? I asked because the CCI Short Range Green ammo, which I think is a non lead ammo, warns not to use in match chamebrs.

Thanks.