Case filling powder for 351 Win

[BenT]

I posted that I picked up a 1907 win. Ammo is made from 357 Mag brass. The outside brass dimensions are the same as 351 Win it just needs the rim turned down. I talked to an older gentleman at the last gunshow who loaded alot of 351 ammo through the years. He said that 357 mag dies work just fine and you don't need an extractor groove in the brass. So I bought Lee dies because I wanted the factory crimp because of the loose bullet fit and Grafs had plated bullets. Well the good thing is that ammo works just fine with 2400 powder listed data.

The problem I don't like is that there is little neck tension on the bullet after sizing. Thus the bullet slides down the case and stops when it hits the top of the powder . There is noway to keep the right AOL while crimping the bullet is place. The recoil was fine with 2400 and it didn't throw the brass but a few feet. But what I would like to know is what slow handgun powders will fill the case within pressure limits? I know Sixgun mentioned once that one of the IMR powders is hard to get over pressure because it filled the case. One of the load programs would be handy also. Thanks

[Terry Murbach]

IMR4227/H4227.

YOUR LOADING DIES HAVE INCORRECT FL. I.D. SPECS TOO......OR PERHAPS YOU NEED A PROJECTILE OF LARGER O.D.
OR THEN AGAIN, MAYBE YOUR EXPANDING PLUG IS OF THE WRONG O.D.. IT SHOULD BE AROUND .354" FOR JACKETED .357" BULLETS....

[3leggedturtle]

Ben, I loaded some .355 bullets in a 357 case and they would just slide down inside to the powder. Since I always need to finish projects, this caused me many sleepless nights Anyways I used a 222 REM sizing die to reduce 357 brass down to about .353 outside diameter. Then i flared case and seated bullet. It actually created a reverse bottleneck so bullet couldnt go backwards at all. They actually shot pretty good out to 100 yards. I used a caliper to check and not reduce brass more than needed. I am not around my ammo today or i would go measure one as I dont remember what they were. But below bullet is about .003 or .003 smaller than where bullet is seated to. Todd

[earlmck]

Ben -- we need to know what bullet you are using and your overall length to put the question to QuickLoad. If you want best results you might also see what the water capacity is filled level full, or we would have to let QuickLoad use a generic guess.

[BenT]

I'm sure if I had the correct dies it would help, but I haven't found any used ones at the gunshows and new are little spendy.Plus if I had a fatter cast bullet would be the ticket. I'm just full length sizing 357 mag, not inside with an expander plug. Lymans cast bullet handbook shows outside brass dimesions the same as the 357 mag. So the 351 brass must be thicker, so I'm not sure if 351 dies would size this 357 brass down small enough to give good tension on the bullet. But I do notice that the Lyman book does show a load with 4227 that is compressed with a 171gr cast ,so I might have to buy 4227.

Earl , I appreciate giving it a try to see if using 15 gr of 2400 is safe. It's a standard 357 case so I measured 28 gr of water in an empty case. The bullet is a 180 gr round nose I purchased from Grafs.

Bullet length is .767
Diameter is .351 it stays that till .401 up the shank and then the taper begins.

After adding the powder and setting the bullet in the AOL is 1.663 Max AOL is 1.9

So if can run some numbers with 2400 and 4227 with 100% fill at different AOL so I have an idea of safe loads would be great. Saami rates the 351 at 43K CUP

Thanks Ben

[BigSky56]

From lyman #45 load manual 180 gr 351 dia. bullet Unique start 10 gr. 1501 fps MAX 11 gr. 1587 fps, 2400 start 17 gr. 1597 fps MAX 19 gr. 1793 fps, IMR 4227 start 17 gr. 1400 fps Max 19.5 gr 1751 fps firearm was a 1907 win with a 20 " barrel, max case length 1.380 trim to 1.376 max oal 1.9 with bullet. danny

[earlmck]

OK Ben, using your figures and fudging in a bullet (QuickLoad doesn't have any .351 bullets listed) it looks like H4227 is your baby. You get close to top velocities and it appears to be impossible to get enough powder in the case to exceed the 43K pressure limit. Your 2400 is a really good powder but if you put 16 grains in the case at an OAL of 1.9" for less than 40K psi and then the bullet slips down to make a cartridge length of 1.663 you have a little bomb having over 70K psi. As you were fearing. Yep, could happen.

4227 of either Hodgen or IMR variety looks like the one powder that will fix you up. Nothing else looks even close for having moderately compressed powder at good velocity without too much pressure. QuickLoad says that 19.5 grains of H4227, 1.9" C.O.A.L., would give you 105% fill (so fairly compressed) and still be under 40K psi. Which matches nicely with Danny's Lyman data.

And how about Todd's idea of using a 222 (or 223 more easily found) die to overdo the sizing? You could even lap the 223 die out a bit if you wanted so it didn't overdo it quite so much. And maybe for an expander use a .357 sized Lyman "M" die and spin it in a drill while sanding and take it down to .349" or so.

Yeah, the right dies and the right cases would be nice, but what would be the challenge in that?

[Buck Elliott]

H-4198/IMR-4198...
I use the Hodgdon version in .45 Colt with excellent results. A Very slightly compressed load gives unbeatable consistency in velocity, and is superby accurate..

[Sixgun]

Ben,
In addition to the expanding plug thingy and the oversized .357 sizing die, try a 9mm carbide sizer. Give it a full crimp with a Lee FCD. Yea, you may be overworking the brass but .357 brass is cheap and plentiful.---Sixgun

[BenT]

Thank You Earl for verifying 4227. Just want to be safe. Terry was sooo right ,but I don't need to say that because he hears it around his house all the time.

That is the problem with picking up guns in old calibers , getting to shoot them affordablely is the challenge, and the fun.

Sixgun I don't have 9mm dies but I know someone who has them that I can borrow and give it a try.

Thanks everyone I need to get some 4227 and then play with the cases if I want more neck tension.

[earlmck]

try a 9mm carbide sizer.

Sixgun has a good idea here. But looking at my book I'm not sure 9mm dies will give enough extra squeeze. If the 9mms don't a 380 carbide die sure will (I just gave it a try and it fairly well overdoes it but would definitely give you some neck tension!) Just use the 357 die for when you need to full-length size, use whatever other die you come up with to size the necks down for bullet tension, and I'll bet you are in business there, Ben. Sounds like fun

[BenT]

Earl , I going to borrow a 9mm die from a friend, but you're right after checking the book the 380 is smaller than the 9mm at the neck.