If Jerimiah Johnson was roaming the Rockies today

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:36 am

What would he be carrying - what would you be carrying if you were him?

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:06 am

No indians, not many grizzlies.......... Just give me a carbine length bolt action, a BLR or maybe even a scoped 99 in 7mm-08 or .308.

LK

veeman · Post by **veeman** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:27 am

Winchester 94 SRC, 38-55.

two bit okie · Post by **two bit okie** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:29 am

nothing, he would be in jail for being a threat to society, and probably mentally ill.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:38 am

L_Kilkenny wrote:No indians, not many grizzlies.......... Just give me a carbine length bolt action, a BLR or maybe even a scoped 99 in 7mm-08 or .308.

LK

There's no shortage of grizzlies in the Northern Rockies, tho they aren't as hard to kill as the internet seems to make them out. I agree with your carbine length bolt gun idea.

two bit okie wrote:nothing, he would be in jail for being a threat to society, and probably mentally ill.

You really should get out in the mountains more. Not trying to be a smart alek, but everywhere isn't as your comment portrayed, thankfully.

On topic, I'd say a scoped bolt gun of some sort. That's what most in this country use, and what I find to be most practical for all around use, or would count on if I had to feed myself.

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:39 am

He would be shot by some out-of-state hunter that thought he was a elk.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:43 am

two bit okie wrote:nothing, he would be in jail for being a threat to society, and probably mentally ill.

Yeah, sadly I'm thinking it's probably unlawful to live today the way he lived then. Though he'd be perfectly fine soliciting change on any particular street corner in Devner, he'd probably be locked up for trying to live off the land next door in the Rockies. Someone should watch that film and note all of the behaviors that would land him outside of the law today. I'm thinking it would be a long list. Can you even trap beaver these days? Can you fell trees to build a cabin even?

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:49 am

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:
two bit okie wrote:nothing, he would be in jail for being a threat to society, and probably mentally ill.
Yeah, sadly I'm thinking it's probably unlawful to live today the way he lived then.

Absolutely correct, ever heard the story of Claude Dallas? While he made some major boo-boo's (like dodging the draft and killin a couple game wardens) he was basically confronted for living off the land in northern Nevada, southern Idaho IIRC. On that note I think his sentence is up and wonder what the heck he's doing now.

LK

Edited to add: Did a Google on Dallas and he was released in 2005 and is reportably living in Utah.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:52 am

I didn't understand the question as "if he were living exactly like he could in the 1800's", but I may be mistaken. I'd agree Colorado wouldn't be the best place to live in the hills and try to make it. Other Rocky Mountain states are a bit less "modern" in their politics and social perspective. Certain places in Alaska, and not all the state, are probably about the only place one could live a subistance lifestyle today.

There's beaver trapping seasons, tho it probably isn't a practical way to make a living at this point.

Something many don't realize, contrary to what the movie portrayed, Johnson wasn't just a trapper. He was in the military, and scouted later, as well as lived in a town and was town Marshall in Red Lodge Mt. He didnt spend all his life living in the mountains as a hunter/trapper.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:55 am

One could do it in a more legal fashion than Dallas did. He had a reputation for being a poacher, killing game when neither he nor anyone else needed it. It wasn't about living off the land, he did it because he liked to kill stuff, and there may have been some thumbing his nose at the law as well.

Dallas wouldnt be my choice of an example of how to live in the hills in modern times, except as an example of how not to do it. He may have been a good woodsman, but there's more to it than that. You can choose to stay within the law,...or not.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:57 am

I have a feeling modern Jeremiah Johnsons are already out there carrying ARs.

For the rest of us, 94 trapper sure sounds like the choice.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:58 am

Malamute wrote:One could do it in a more legal fashion than Dallas did. He had a reputation for being a poacher, killing game when he nor anyone else needed it. It wasn't about living off the land, he did it because he liked to kill stuff, and there may have been some thumbing his nose at the law as well.

Dallas wouldnt be my choice of an example of how to live in the hills in modern times, except as an example of how not to do it. He may have been a good woodsman, but there's more to it than that.

I agree, I'm not defending Dallas in the least. While he became somewhat of a folk hero I think he was over the edge.

LK

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:17 am

bulldog1935 wrote:I have a feeling modern Jeremiah Johnsons are already out there carrying ARs. For the rest of us, 94 trapper sure sounds like the choice.

That would be my impression, as well.

I'd also consider a Savage ML-10 with a supply of 5744 powder, primers, sabots, and bullets. Sabots would enable you to shoot about any projectile in a pinch, and the ML-10 is 'rated' for several smokeless powders in addition to black powder and substitutes.

gak · Post by **gak** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:24 am

A +1 to a carbine-ish 7mm-08. Make mine a Win Featherweight or Rem Mt Rifle DM. A Pre 64 Win 88 in .308 a good choice too. .44 Mag 4-3/4 Vaquero, SBH or S&W Mountain Gun on the hip.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:41 am

Having spent my entire life in and around the Rocky Mtns. It's plumb easy to say what the mtn men types would carry, the same thing as what everybody else does, either a bolt gun, semi auto, or levergun in a cartridge that would do what they need it too.
They explained this to us in 82 at Bent's Fort while we were helping to setup the living history programs the NPS now uses. There's little difference between the mtn man of 1840 and present day. Those old dead guys had to basically get permission to hunt and trap with what ever local tribe happened to be around. Henceforth the need to carry trade goods. A beaver plew brought 25$, a mule with a full load can make 25 miles a day. And old ephram would dine on your belly for breakfast if you weren't careful
Fast forward to today. You have to apply to the controlling authority and pay the appointed fees to hunt and trap, beaver plews are still around 25$, and mules are still mules.
Old Ephram will still dine on your guts for breakfast if you're not careful....

I know a number of folks from the Nevada/Idaho border country where Dallas hung out. He is neither hero nor villan to those folks, most don't approove of his shooting those two game wardens. But few if any shed a tear over Poque's passing, the other fella they were sad about. And most all say that what happened there is nothing particularly close to what the press and such have portrayed.

Washita · Post by **Washita** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:22 pm

Malamute wrote:One could do it in a more legal fashion than Dallas did. He had a reputation for being a poacher, killing game when neither he nor anyone else needed it. It wasn't about living off the land, he did it because he liked to kill stuff, and there may have been some thumbing his nose at the law as well.

Dallas wouldnt be my choice of an example of how to live in the hills in modern times, except as an example of how not to do it. He may have been a good woodsman, but there's more to it than that. You can choose to stay within the law,...or not.

IMO, Dallas is just a murdering thug & should be doing life without parole. He killed 2 LEO's who were just doing their job, in cold blood, for no real reason. I never understood why he had so much popular support. Being able to survive in the wilderness doesn't automatically make you a hero in my book.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:25 pm

Washita wrote:... He killed 2 LEO's who were just doing their job, in cold blood, for no real reason. ...

Without examining any of the particulars, THIS OPINION is what allows Tyranny to go unchallenged.

The SS were only doing their job too...

Meh.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:37 pm

All other parts of the story aside, in at least one of the LEO's shootings by Dallas there is a very strong case to be made for self defense. It was him or the other guy. Some people will not accept that simply because the dead man was an LEO and will side with the LEO regardless. That's one of the problems we have today and has fostered a lot of tyranny. A good friend who has passed on went to visit Dallas in prison and said Dallas had a great many regrets including the killings. I often reflect on this story and have determined at some point to do more research into it.

As to the rifle that liver eating Johnson would carry (I've always liked that nickname despite the controversy), I'm pretty sure it would be the most effective for whatever is the most popular and available both rifle wise and ammo wise. Based on what I see on the shelves, I'm thinking it would be a .270 or 30-06 bolt gun.

As to grizzlies being scarce in the Rockies, tell that to all the people getting mauled and killed lately up north. They are definitely NOT scarce and are pushing out into populated areas more and more. I think Don mentioned a school yard with a grizzly fence, I met a guy who was mauled and had his face torn off a few miles from Malemute, butkilled the bear with a .41 and survived to tell the story. I don't walk anywhere around there without a gun.

Good thread with some good tangents!

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:51 pm

[ I never understood why he had so much popular support. Being able to survive in the wilderness doesn't automatically make you a hero in my book.[/quote]

See this is where alot of the myth starts to filter in. Dallas was a buckaroo on alot of those big outfits in and around the Owyhee.... He didn't live off the land anymore than anybody else that spends time working out of a line camp.He just happened to be in his camp doing some trapping at the time. His being well known to most of the "locals" is where alot of the support comes from. They also knew Poque....
Crow Killer Johnston, John Livereatin Johnson, among other things cut stack and sold firewood along the Missouri and Yellowstone to the riverboats.
Got his knickname after he hunted down and killed a couple of the crow's that he suspected of killing his wife and unborn baby at his cabinsite on the south side of Battle Mt. in south central Wy.
Ate the livers out of a couple of those Crow, just to show revenge and a bit of disrespect....

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:25 pm

he wouldn't...he'd be living in a beach front condo in Malibu or Venice Beach... :)

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:38 pm

I'll play....My 1895GS with 300gr Nosler Partitions loaded to about 2100fps, and a little waterproof stash somewhere with fixing's for a few hundred more. Wellllll, I only have a hundred of those old Noslers...Maybe some Cast Perfromance 405s.....43grs of H4287 takes them to about 1700 in my GS.....

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:07 pm

I'll go 1895 in .35 WCF in a 20" short rifle configuration. Probably slinging 220 grain jacketed at 1800 fps. I'd like a Lyman 38 on mine please.

DBL · Post by **DBL** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:58 pm

I've done quite a bit of research on Claude Dallas. My opinion is he did what he had to do. If he hadn't shot the wardens in the head with a .22 after they were on the ground he wouldn't have gone to prison. Adrenaline and panic will make people do strange things.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:34 pm

All of his missteps led to having to have it out with wardens.....I cannot possibly rationalize shooting someone after it's someone's own fault that they are painted into that corner.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:02 pm

If I recall, in the movie Johnson carried two rifles.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:19 pm

FWiedner wrote:If I recall, in the movie Johnson carried two rifles.

I'm going to call that a repeater ... Old school.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:59 pm

Right here above cedar city utah we have a fugitive "mountain man" that has been haunting the high contry not far from me for at least 5 years and really more like 7. Read this story: http://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-mountain- ... 3D15775338 About a month ago someone on the edge of town here thought they sighted him, they had a army of leo looking for him even with a helicopter. He slipped away. I have more articles and info on him I will post a little later if you guys want. Just today I and some friends were rideing the trails on quads on the edge of "his territory". We were armed. More later.
Here`s another http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/2 ... 93254.html
Another: http://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/o ... 963f4.html
Here is some old mug shots of him: http://www.ironcounty.net/departments/s ... app-photos

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:59 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:I have a feeling modern Jeremiah Johnsons are already out there carrying ARs.

For the rest of us, 94 trapper sure sounds like the choice.

The ones carrying ARs are probably more Claude Dallas's.
The real Jeremiah Johnson's are carrying .22s, No.1 1/2 steel traps and fishing gear, and eating very well.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:14 pm

Probably not the greatest choice compared to some of yours you guys---------but
If I had to pick(1) probably would pick my open sighted Ithaca 20" 12ga Deerslayer.
The leather ammo bag would have a mix of (#6's/ 00Buck/ 550gr Brenneke Green Lightnings)

I think the first round loaded would be 00 Buck followed by the Green Lightnings.

Want something that would be good(first shot for Mountain Lion)and even put a hurtin on bear followed by the big 550gr green boys.
Sometimes want to be able to shoot upland stuff with #6's(first couple)but have next stoppers in the tube in case.

That gun is good to 100yds(slugs)and it is utterly ultra-reliable/quick handling/powerful.
And the biggest thing----------it's a part of me!

Course a 4-5/8" Blackhawk on the side in (45 Colt)wouldn't bother me either to make a nice couple.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:15 pm

765x53 wrote: The real Jeremiah Johnson's are carrying .22s, No.1 1/2 steel traps and fishing gear, and eating very well.

lol, so which one are they using for bear defense?

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:30 pm

Just pop them bad boys on the end of the nose with your 6.5 ft rhino rod with 10lb test in your Zebco 33, they'll back right off SS.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:31 pm

I'll go with a, what else, Mod. 94 trapper in 44mag. With lightweight nylon sling to free up the hands, with a heavy bullets at moderate velocity, and a Ruger Bearcat in stainless on the hip. Not much you couldn't do there.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:52 am

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:50 am

harry wrote:He would be shot by some out-of-state Texan that thought he was a elk.

Fixed it for ya.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:54 am

I've met plenty of guys in Texas who thought they were hunters, but I can't say that I 've met one who thought he was an elk.

I'll have to add that 86er does do a convincing job of sounding like a cow.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:41 am

I think CO has a worse Avis complex than even Canada.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:50 am

well... Jeremiah Johnson still lives in the rockies,
owns a big portion of it in Utah, and is a tree hugger!

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:58 am

bulldog1935 wrote:I think CO has a worse Avis complex than even Canada.

Nope, just been around here for start of hunting season for a long time and have seen Texans come up with some of the most stupid reasons why they shot a cow, dog, horse, etc., claiming they thought it was a deer or elk. A friend painted COW on the sides of one of his cows back in the early 80's and sure enough, a Texan used the 'O' for a bullseye and shot it.

However, they do spend a ton of money on food, drink, and supplies so the welcome mat is still out for them .... along with some good natured ribbing.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:10 pm

COSteve wrote:
bulldog1935 wrote:I think CO has a worse Avis complex than even Canada.
Nope, just been around here for start of hunting season for a long time and have seen Texans come up with some of the most stupid reasons why they shot a cow, dog, horse, etc., claiming they thought it was a deer or elk. A friend painted COW on the sides of one of his cows back in the early 80's and sure enough, a Texan used the 'O' for a bullseye and shot it.

However, they do spend a ton of money on food, drink, and supplies so the welcome mat is still out for them .... along with some good natured ribbing.

lol. After working on and building houses in the resorts for over 15 years I developed a saying, I don't mind Texans, as long as they bring a sack of money.

I'd sure rather see a TX plate than a CA or IL plate, the latter two became all too common after the DNC in 08.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:35 pm

you wouldn't have seen my plate anyway.
Made it from Amarillo to Cheeseman Canyon in 4 hrs. and 20 min. one day.
Of course I was younger then and normally drove with my hair on fire.
(not Raton, that was coming up 87)

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:37 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:...
owns a big portion of it in Utah, and is a tree hugger!

if you found a tree in Utah, you'd hug it, too.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:25 pm

It occured to me that no one posted the most obvious answer. JJ really admired good craftmanship as well as serious fire power. I think he would be the most comfortable with a reproduction Sharps in 50-90, a big knife, and a revolver. -Tutt

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:33 pm

Hey there, look who's back.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:13 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
765x53 wrote: The real Jeremiah Johnson's are carrying .22s, No.1 1/2 steel traps and fishing gear, and eating very well.
lol, so which one are they using for bear defense?

Anyone who regularly needs to fend off bear attacks is probably not much of a mountain man.
If they can't do it with a .22 they are no marksman at all.

The title of this thread should be "Let's Pretend We Can Afford Anything We Want to Play Modern Mountain Man" or "I Want to be Danial Boone but I Don't Want to Have to Defecate in the Woods".

2571 · Post by **2571** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:16 pm

Couldn't hunt without orange clothing.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:31 pm

Hey there, look who's back.

I'm sort of back but at times my heart is very much still in Ukraine and I'm trying to get back there again soon.

-Tutt

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:00 am

Good to see your post Andy. It seems to me that Mountain Men evolved with the times. There was a proported picture published of Johnson in Muzzleblasts a number of years ago when he was acting as a sheriff ca. 1870's and though it's doctored he looked to be holding an 1876 Win. A lever STILL makes sense as it is such a delight to carry and quick into action. Unlike an AR, it's also got soul and life is too short to live with an ugly rifle so there you have it.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:27 am

C. Cash wrote:...life is too short to live with an ugly rifle so there you have it.

Ugly guns need lovin too!

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:31 am

Beauty's in the eye of the beer holder!

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:48 am

Somewhere I have a picture in a book of liver eating johnsons winchester that you are talking about. He added a block of wood to the stock as I belive he was like 6ft 6"s for LOP. That was practicly a giant in those days. My dad also did the same to all his long guns as he also was tall like that.