OT *#@($*%&$&% CAR BUYER'S

[HEAD0001]

I was a Ford Truck Manager and Sales Man for six years. I started this new thread so as not to hijack the other thread.

I will give a few facts;

1. For every lie a salesman tells, a customer tells 10.
2. I have heard more lies about how great their trade is:
"Runs like a top"
"Never had a problem"
"I just put everything new on it"
"Those tires have plenty of miles left on them"
"I am just looking"
"I just put a brand new battery in it"
"I just put new brakes, and rotors on it"
I could go on with this but this is enough
3. 9 out of 10 buyer's come into the dealership upset off to start with.
And with good reason. Nobody wants a new car payment, and normally people have just put some money in their used car to try and get a little more life from it before they need to trade. But normally most people are in the market because their old car is no longer reliable. So let's pawn it off on trhe car dealer, but of course we will lie to the dealer and tell him how great the used car is.

4. The turn over rate for salesman is so great because most people can not handle the abuse the car buying public put's on them.

5. Just think what you do to a person who comes to your work site with an attitude before they get there. And pin points you with their aggression. How many of you would listen to all that BS??? Probably not very many???


I am not trying to defend the dealer's, because most of them are a piece of ****. But I can tell you who the most successful car salesman are. The ones that tell the truth. A buyer can sift through all the "BULL" if he just takes his time in his decision, the problem is most buyer's have their mind set on something when they really do not have any idea what they are doing. And therein lies the problem. Most people are scared of something they do not understand!!! So they are afraid they will make a bad decision.

Try treating the next salesman with some respect, and you might be surprised. If they then treat you bad then let them have it.

Now if anybody want to know how to buy a car the right way, let me know. I will tell you the proper way to get the best deal. Tom.

[Blaine]

I'm trying real hard to feel bad, but............

[claybob86]

Now if anybody want to know how to buy a car the right way, let me know. I will tell you the proper way to get the best deal. Tom.

Yes, I'd like to know. Thanks for the insight.

[HEAD0001]

Here is a few points to ponder on(there are very many)

1. The day of the week, and the day in the month are very important. Never buy a vehicle on a busy day. Always go on a weekday. Tuesday and Wednesday are best. Late morning or early afternoon. These are the two slowest day's. You are apt to get your best deal on their slow day. Also the day of the month. Always shop in the last week of the month, dealer's have quota's, and the quota's are always monthly.

2. Alway's pick the day with the worst weather. Sunny weather brings out the buyer's. Rainy or snowy day's are the slow day's at the dealership. Slow is good for the buyer.

3. Always detail your trade before you take it to the dealer. Make your trade look good. Change the wearable rubber parts on your car. The wiper's, and especially the foot pedals. Wear on these parts is one of the first thing's an appraiser looks at.

4. Never try to trade with an empty gas tank. The appraiser immediately looks at how much gas is in the tank. A full tank means a shopper so the appraiser feels he has to appraise the car higher to make the deal. An empty tank means you are ready to buy, so they will try to make more profit on you.

5. As stated above-detail your car. But do not empty your car out. A detailed car with no contents indicates a person who is buying that day. They will try to hold more profit.

6. Do a little research before you go to the dealer, educate yourself on the rebates and invoice price before you get there. An educated buyer intimidates a sales person. He knows he can not pull the wool over your eyes.

7. Never discuss payment. Always discuss price.

8.. Always discuss price and trade in separately. As a buyer you must insist on this. This is the place to get anal. First determine the price you can buy the vehicle for, then discuss your trade value.

9. Always tell them you are financing, whether you are or not. Remember financing is also a profit center for the dealer.

10. Never discuss financing, payments, or interest rates with the salesman if you are financing. THIS IS A SEPARATE NEGOTIATION WITH THE FINANCE MANAGER. The salesman has nothing to do with this.

11. Always walk in with $500 in CASH. And let the salesman and manager see and HANDLE the cash. Let them hold on to the cash. They will not want to give it back to you, they will make the deal you want so they can hang on to the CASH.

12. Along with the cash carry a pen with you, and pull it out from time to time when the negotiations's hit a snag. And remind them that if they want you to sign the dotted line, then they need to do what you want.

13. Do not worry about your KEYS. That is anal. They will not keep your car. They try to keep your key's so they can have one last chance at you before you walk out the door. It is that simple.

14. Shop your local dealer's last. By the time you get to your local dealer you will be well educated, and you will be ready to make your deal.

15. Stay calm, and courteous. But be FIRM in what you want. If they pee you off they win. DO NOT constantly threaten to get up and walk out, and do not worry about your key's. Just stay firm in what you want to pay, and above all stay CALM. Tom.

[CBinNH]

Tom,
Thanks for the tips. I printed them & plan on using them when shopping for a new vehicle for my wife in the next month or two. Chris

[Noah Zark]

Tom:

Since we're exchanging tips, here's a friendly tip from a self-confessed grammar nazi:

Never use a possessive as a plural.



Noah

[HEAD0001]

Tom:

Since we're exchanging tips, here's a friendly tip from a self-confessed grammar nazi:

Never use a possessive as a plural.



Noah

Show me??? Tom.

[PaperPatch]

Go to BlockBuster Video........and rent "Suckers". Its about the auto sales business.

[Noah Zark]

Since you asked, Tom:

1. The day of the week, and the day in the month are very important. Never buy a vehicle on a busy day. Always go on a weekday. Tuesday and Wednesday are best. Late morning or early afternoon. These are the two slowest day's. You are apt to get your best deal on their slow day. Also the day of the month. Always shop in the last week of the month, dealer's have quota's, and the quota's are always monthly.

2. Alway's pick the day with the worst weather. Sunny weather brings out the buyer's. Rainy or snowy day's are the slow day's at the dealership. Slow is good for the buyer.

3. Always detail your trade before you take it to the dealer. Make your trade look good. Change the wearable rubber parts on your car. The wiper's, and especially the foot pedals. Wear on these parts is one of the first thing's an appraiser looks at.

"days" -- plural (indicating more than one) ex: "We were gone five days."

"day's" -- possessive (indicating some property of the day) ex: "I was docked a day's pay"


"buyers" -- plural (indicating more than one) ex: "We had 22 buyers in here before lunch on Saturday."

"buyer's" -- possessive (indicating some property of the buyer) ex: "I have the buyer's title and registration here."


And "always" is a word as it is; there is not apostrophe between the "y" and "s".

No flame here, just trying to help. It's (contraction for "it is") a pet peeve of mine, possessives used as plurals. A local bar and grille just paid $2700 for a lighted sign and the panels on both sides proclaim "Pizza, Salad's, Burger's". I can't bear to look at it anymore.

Noah

[big medicine]

Tom,
This has been VERY helpful! I have a couple questions. How do I get this information??

6. Do a little research before you go to the dealer, educate yourself on the rebates and invoice price before you get there. An educated buyer intimidates a sales person. He knows he can not pull the wool over your eyes.

How do you get in the ball park of what the vehicle actually cost the dealer? and how do you find out what kind of rebates are available? It seems the dealers NEVER tell you about the rebates because they keep them. How do you work this? If you know what the rebates are, after you come up with the price, then say oh by the way, there are also these rebates on this vehicle, and we have not talked about those?

You are so right about the attuide when buying a vehicle. I took it up the six when I bought my 1986 Nissan pickup. I had just come back from overseas and needed a vehicle. After it was all said and done the next day I figured out that they got my trade in for free. Talk about being PO'd!!! I tend not to let the same mistake happen twice, and have since gone in with the attuide that they are going to play the shell game throwing all kinds of numbers around trying to confuse me like they did then.

I did get nasty with one sales man several years ago. We were talking price on a vehicle at 22,000. With 6,000 down and 6,000 for my trade. Then this guy says we can write it up for 18,000. I looked at him and said What? Then the shell game started, well there is this cost and that cost ect, ect. I told him that I wasn't very good at math, but I did know that 22,000 - 12,000 = 10,000 he is then doing the paper shuffel comming up with all these numbers. I looked at my wife and pushed my ball cap up a little and said "Do I have F-ing stupid written on my forehead?" The guy starts studdering oh, no, no sir that isn't what I mean. I looked at him and said I think we are done here. He said that maby the GM could explain it to me. I looked at him as said "There isn't anyone who can explain to me how 8,000 just vanished" and got up and left. The problem is that it only takes one or two experiences like that to make a person a little gun shy.

I try not to have an attuide when I walk in, but the gloves come off when they start playing the shell game, thinking they have hit lotto.

[HEAD0001]

Actually it is very easy to find the information you want. If you are looking for a Ford truck just search "Ford Rebates". They will ask you for your zip code. Rebates are regional, so you have to enter your zip code.

The average markup on a Ford truck is 13-1/2%. Ford also has a 3% hold back. Then the dealer can qualify for volume incentives. These incentives are not always offered by the factory, and the dealer's rarely give up any part of this profit. The price on the new car is easy. The hard part is figuring out exactly what your trade is worth.

IMO finance rate incentives are a gimmick. Few people pay off a truck loan. Most people trade off before the loan is finished, or pay the loan off early. So there is no real advantage if you do either of these.

Go to your bank. They should be able to give you the NADA used car value for your trade. Just remember the more they discount your truck up front, the less they will show you for your trade later on. However the most important number is the difference you have to pay. Just do not let them know that you know that.

Remember the best thing you can do is keep your mouth shut, keep your cool, and stick to your guns. There is a saying in the car business, "The person who opens his mouth first-looses". Tom.

[big medicine]

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm ignorant on this stuff. what is a hold back?

As far as the rebates, when do you talk about that during price? After you have settled on a price?

we have been planning on buying another vehicle sometime this year so all of this will be very helpful.

[pharmseller]

Tom,
Awfully good of you to provide the education. I imagine you are saving some folks some serious cabbage.

Quinn

[wm]

That is very helpful......I guess I was doing a lot of that without knowing it but then again I have a slight advantage being responsible for our truck fleet & dealing with service issues all day, every day.

Wm

[Old Ironsights]

What was irritating to me is that I told the dealer EXACTLY what I wanted, and it took driving to Chicago to find one that would listen to me...

Even after doing the Internet research.

But the guy I worked with there did me OK. I might have been able to get another couple of hundred knocked off, but I WAS just buying a $4K piece of transportation...

[tarkio]

I liked your comment about the best salesmen Tom.

I am a bad salesman's nightmare and a good salesman's dream. I generally know exactly what I need, what I want and almost never shop for a vehicle when I need one.

I pay cash outright unless its a business vehicle that I may finance only if the financing is really attractive.

I make it very clear that I have neither the time or inclination to quibble over pennies (so to speak). I find a vehicle that will work & asked straight-out, what is your bottom dollar? If it isn't right for me, I say thanks but no thanks and I walk. When a salesman jumps in front of me as I am leaving, which several have done, and ask what would it take or maybe they could do better, I then make it clear to them that I asked for their bottom $ and they answered. So now they are admitting that they lied when they gave me their first "bottom dollar" price. I do not do business knowingly or willingly with liars.

I would so much prefer to deal with salespeople straight up with no BS. As I said, I try to never be in a position, real or perceived, where I have to buy a vehicle.

Just my approach.

[Bis]

Thanks for the insight. I wish I lived closer to you, I would be buying my next truck from you. Unfortunatley in my area there are only 3 agencies (Ford, Dodge and GMC) the next closest one is 40 miles away. The attitude at the agencies is if you don't like it go some where else. I know, I use to work at the GMC agency.

[PPpastordon]

"Try treating the next salesman with some respect, and you might be surprised. If they then treat you bad then let them have it. "

The last salesman at a used car dealership that I talked with told me, "Yes, we have the Del Sol advertised in today's paper." After I drove it and noticed a couple of problems with it and asked for $$$ off, he said, "No problem," and gave me a price. The only problem was that it was over three thousand dollars ($3,000) greater than the advertised price. He tried to convince me the newspaper price was a misprint and they were not required to go by it. That day I paid almost his price, but for a four (4) year newer model in far better condition - from an individual.

Do not get me wrong because I know there are some good and honest salesmen and women out there. But they seem to be harder to find than good, or even reasonable deals on used cars. IMHO!

Grace and Peace.

[Blaine]

I've bought 4 rigs at Riverside Ford in Sumner, Wa....... See Jim Parker.......I'm sure he makes plenty of money on the deal, but he's a good egg and he's the kind of fella I'd let pick a car for my a friend or daughter.....

[big medicine]

I do know the mark up on used vehicles is very high. I have a friend that has a dealer license and goes to the auctions. My last vehicle we got was a 2004 Ford Expedition with about 30,000 miles on it. We got it in Aug of 2005. we paid 18,000 for it through him. At that time the dealers wanted close to 30,000 for similar and older vehicles.

The down fall is that I can give him an idea of what I want and ideas on color. He may or may not be able to find what I want exactly, and I don't get to see it until he gets it home, so I'm pretty much stuck with it. This last vehicle reeked of smoke and it tooks months to get the stench out.

We may go that route again I don't know...this time to make sure he doesn't get some rolling ash tray. But we have been thinking about a new vehicle this time.

[Hobie]

The key thing will always bug me. There I am with no transport. I don't like that and that's all there is to it. I understand what you're saying but, it still bugs me. Quite frankly, they LOST the sale over that. Now, 3 years later I STILL have the same vehicle and it still runs very well indeed.

FWIW, I now generally buy new, pay cash, and run them 8+ years. We take care of them, they are serviced at a dealer. Unfortunately this particular one is only one of two we've bought locally all others have been bought in Florida or Alabama.

[bj94]

In the last ones I bought, I discovered that the longer I worked with the salesman, the lower the price got, but it does take awhile and you have to be patient and play the game. Then at some point the price will bottom out and you have to recognize this then decide if you want to buy the car at this price. If you aren't willing to buy at this price then leave and go somewhere else. Some dealerships will ultimately give you a better price than others, but it will be hard to find this out unless you got to multiple dealers and play the long game with all of them.

The last 2 cars I bought, I bought them used. I think this provides more economical transportation than buying new, but can affect reliability. I am able to maintain a car myself so I can handle little things that might pop up with a slightly oder car.

Also, I never go to the dealer for anything beyond warranty, except for the few parts I might need that aren't available anywhere else.

[Peter M. Eick]

One thing my company taught me was the tender process. Simply pick a dealer. Absolutely spec out the car exactly as you want it and get all of the dealer codes for each of the options you want.

Now go home and write up a tender letter to every dealer in a 1 county radius around where you live. You say to the effect, I am out to buy this exact car, no substitutions, no changes. This legal tender is due on x day. I have sent this to these dealers (list dealers). I am accepting your bid for a cash deal on this vehicle delivered to me by such and such day for your best price. Recognizing that I will get the same vehicle from everyone, I will go with the best price only and pay cash.

Please provide contact information.

I did this on a couple of chevys and worked great. I got very widely ranging bids, as I remember over a 6,000$ variation from the high to the low. Yes I paid cash and yes it was a great deal. No regrets from either dealer but both were surprised I handled it that way. The second dealer commented that he thought it was one of the most innovative sales he ever dealt with and yes he gave a really good price.

By the way, my local dealer in a face to face negotiation was not even close in the prior discussions. He wanted over 4000$ more then I got the first truck in the end and that was his final offer after going to the manager a few times.

Regardless it worked well for me.

[Bis]

Why is it when you go into an agency and the salesmen attacks, you always get the same story. I am just looking, then, well what will take to get you to drive home in this little beauty. Then you spend forever in the guys office and come up with an aggrement only to be told that he must check with his manager. After what seems like hours he comes back and says that his manager says we have to much in the car and it will cost X amount more. It is such a pain, at which point I usually just leave.
There use to be a Jeep agency in S. Ca. (when they were AMC, its been awhile) that I use to deal with. They listed the MSRP and their price. Take it or leave it. That is what they were selling it for, if you didn't like it go some where else. They usually had the best price. It was nice to just go in and say I want that one and sign the paper work.

[Thunder50]

Go to kbb.com (kelly blue book) or nada.com and find out just what is available in rebates and just what the dealer cost is for your car or truck.

I was looking for a new business truck and was going to trade in my old suburban (99 3/4 ton 4wd). Local people offered $4000-$6000 for it, pretty well wholesale. I can't buy them for that, so I am not going to sell mine for that. Most offered to trade for $41K. Called a dealer that I had bought a truck from about 12 years earlier. He said bring over the suburban and I will take a look at it. He said he had people that would be interested in it. Took it over, he offered me $9K for the suburban and would sell me his truck at his cost (looked it up--figure he gave was right!). Said what he made off of the suburban was good enough. Ended up getting $3,500 in rebates off the price also. If I hadn't found a good used car for offspring, I would have bought another new one from him!

[jazman]

Well, I walked into a place one time and let the salesman know I didn't want to play any games, what was the car going to cost me. He pointed at the sticker price on the window. I let him know I wasn't going to pay sticker...he looked at me and said "I don't blame you, but who is playing the game?" Had to admit he was right, I guess I did want to play the game as I wanted to pay less. I liked the guy, sat down. He told me I would say less money, his boss would say more money, he would run back and forth knowing if I didn't buy he wouldn't make a nickel. Finally he came back with their best offer, and told me that was it. I got up and he watched me leave. I got back out of my car knowing I had their bottom dollar offer since they would let me leave rather than sell me the car. I bought it.
Now I buy by phone. On new cars check the Web and find out the invoice (price they pay) for the car. Start calling dealers and talk only to the Fleet and Lease Manager. Tell him you want to buy X car with X on it, and want to pay $100. over invoice. Call until you find one that will do it. If none will, start again and say $200 over, etc. Easy, takes a short time from home to do it. Once you agree, go to the dealer and buy it. If it's one dollar more when you get there, leave and go to the next best dealer you talked with. It works, I have bought 5 or 6 of my last vehicles like this, from Jeep to Porsche to Ford, they all do it and are happy to sell the unit. The more they sell, the more they get.

[Scott64A]

I hope you're still watching this thread.

My wife's car was bought in '02 for around 12,500. It's a Kia Optima.

It has a "zero-tolerance" timing system on it, and what that means is when your timing belt goes, it can and usually does damage the motor.

It went. when I went to the dealership, they said it would be around $1270 just to see if it would even work; if it did or did not have damage to the rest of the motor.

I asked to go look, and saw some cruddy anti-freeze all along the inside of the timing belt cover. It was actually dripping out of the bottom of the water pump, but because it was designed so that the water pump is directly over the timing belt, any amount that dripped out went right to the timing belt and pulleys.
This caused the motor to be wrecked.

So here we are, having to choose a new car because there is no way I'm going to throw seven grand at a car that won't make it past 68,000 miles.

They said they could give us $2,000 for the trade.
They have a Kia Sorento, (with an actual CHAIN -not a timing belt,) for sticker of 13,900.
They buy these at auctions and I'm wondering where to get a price on them?

I don't want to get pooned here.
My wife already told them a "payment" she didn't want to go over, but I have all day tomorrow to hammer it out.

[HEAD0001]

You left out a lot of informatio:

Is the Optima paid for??

Is the Sorento a new car or a used car?? If it is new and they are showing you $2,000 for your trade, then they are basically giving you nothing for your trade. Try to buy it without trading and subtract yur discount from $2,000???

Please do not take this personally but I would get as far away from the KIA dealer as I possibly could. I do not care for them.

I realize payment's are important but it really depends on your over all vehicle cost. For example: what hapened to your Optima.

[Old Ironsights]

I learned a thing or two about timing belts...

If tou don't have a "non-interference" type of engine, its worth the $150 to replace the timing belt imediately.

If your engine is non-interference/free-spin, then you can suck up the tow fee to get you to a mechanic to replace the belt.

In either case, expect it to go somewhere between 70K and 150K.

Mine went to 160K(ish)... as I was in-route to 86er's place in Texas. Took 5 hours, but I was good to go when they were done (non-interference).

Timing belts are cheap(ish) to replace... as long as you haven't trashed your lifters.

[Scott64A]

The Optima was paid off in October of this year.

The Sorento or the Sedona, either, are both used, they said they got them from an auction in the SW.

I'd love to get away from Kia, but I don't think anyone will give me even 2,000 for the car that needs $3,000 worth of work.

We had the belt replaced in Feb of '06 because the timing sensor went kaput.

It only made it a couple years because the water pump had a little hole that is there to drain any fluid that might seep by the water pump seal, which they tell me is a sign it's going. So it dripped a little antifreeze every day onto the timing belt assembly.
None of it ever made it to the ground.

[HEAD0001]

The reason why there is a sticker price on new cars is simple. If there was no sticker, then the dealer could charge anything they want to charge, and the consumer would have no idea what the real retail price is.

There is no sticker on a used car. So they can say the retail price is whatever they want. All they have to do is tell you they are giving you $2,000 for your trade, after they raised their retail price on the used car $2,000. So in effect they gave you $0.00.

You need to go shopping without your trade and see what kind of deal you can get without trading. You might be surprised. Also your vehicle should have a good salvage value if you get with the right person. DO NOT let them pull the wool over your eyes. It sounds like you are letting them back you into a corner. GET OUT of that corner. They think they have the upper hand becaue they have your disabled auto on their lot. Tow it off their lot, that can not cost too much. And it will sure send them a message.

I also would never buy an auction car. Especially if it was a lease factory car. Sorry, just my opinion. Tom.

[cnjarvis]

Just wondering... Would it be worthwhile to offer an "off duty" car salesman a cash deal to assist in negotiations with another dealer? Sort of a "buyer's rep". Fight fire with fire.

[HEAD0001]

I have been out of the car business for 12 years. I worked in sales all my life, so I am familiar with the psychology of buying and selling.

I get calls from friends, family, and former customers all the time. they ask me to help them buy their new car. I do not ask them for any money, but I do get a lot of free meals.

Common sense would dictate that if someone can save you some money, then it would be worth it for you to grease their palms.

All I am saying is if you take your time, and keep your cool then you can do it also. Just do not be intimidated. I know no one wants to admit they are intimidated, but I saw it way too many times.

Every one says they do not want to play any games. But it is a game. If you do not want to play, then drive your old car.

The funny thing here is that all anyone has asked about is price. But after they buy their car all they care about is service. Whenever some one would beat me up over a couple of hundred dollars they can save some where else I would tell them to go there and buy the car, and I would also tell them to go there when their car needed serviced. They did not like to hear that. Tom.

[Scott64A]

OK, so I did a bunch of research yesterday morning and after asking a good friend of mine who is a mechanic what he thought, he liked the V6 that was in the Sedona. He said the original V6 had some problems, and that when Kia was bough by Hyundai things changed for the better. They no longer install that 4 cyclinder, for instance. Too many problems.

He quipped that, "When they say change the timing belt at 60,000 miles, they MEAN it."

So we could have avoided having the motor self-destruct, but we both agreed that a timing belt shouldn't destroy the whole motor -chaulk it up to a wierd design mixed with my ignorance.

I checked out Kelly blue book values for the 06 Sedona and found that the dealer's asking price was right there. One of the Sedonas they had had 15,455 miles on it and was listed at $13,998. Another had 21,621 miles and listed at $15,998.

We wanted the one with the grey interior, (21,621 miles,) but only because wife likes grey. (Women...) I had the salesman run each through Carfax after a test-drive, and found the first one with lower miles had been registered twice: once to an owner, and then a year later as a fleet/rental. The other had but one registration done, then was repoed. I chose the latter because it was in great shape and had no rental history.

They REALLY wanted to sell me the one with lower miles on it. I mean they tried six ways from Sunday to get me to keep looking at it.

I asked why there was a $2,000 difference between the two, and the used car manager said he had done all sorts of work to it. I had them print the invoice for it and saw that they did some maintenance: oil change, wiper blades, two new tires, balancing all four, alignment on all four, a pulley that was whining, and replaced an axle boot that was missing.
I told them they could sell me that one for $13,998, and the salesman balked. I love seeing that. He had to go back and forth between me and the managers three times before I just walked over and did it myself. There were a lot of looks exchanged, but they after being there for a couple hours and sitting behind them while they toyed with invoices, etc., they went for it. I got taken to the back office two times for separate "sessions" and never budged. I told them that I was acting in good faith by even considering another Kia, but that the rest of the car had performed reliably over the 6 years we had it and that I had read and heard goosd things about this particular minivan and so I would get it.

They really didn't want to, but agreed to let it go for that price. (I know, they bought it at auction, and probably got a good deal on it, but hey, if they don't want to let it go for less, I was probably doing well,)

They got a rate of 7.35% for me, which isn't too bad, and I took it.
I only got $1800 for the trade in but I don't care. I could have shopped around for a couple weeks and sold it myself for more to a good junk man, but my wife had no car and her co-workers were taking turns carting her around. Besides, who wants an Optima with a blown 4 cylinder?

Before I even considered signing my life away, I called my friend Kevin, who manages a Chevy dealership in Cartersville and he said it was a great deal. He couldn't put me in a decent used minivan for less then $15,000, and he was frantically shuffling through books and different websites to beat it. He said they are probably trying really hard to keep my business because of their crapy 4 cylinder and to go ahead and get it.

So I got it.

I called a friend of mine who has an '06 Sedona and he loves it. He's an old gear head and knows his way around motors, etc., and when he asked what I paid, he choked. I paid less than half of what he did for the same vehicle with 21,000 miles on it.

My payment: $267.00/mo. His payment: $402.00/mo.

Wife is happy with it, and we love the amount of usable space in it. It drives well, and is solid. ( I crawled around underneath it for a half hour and had them remove the cosmetic cover over the motor and it looked practically new.) My four-year-old loved it and wanted to invite all of her stuffed animals in for a drive.

We have the remainder of the 60,000/ 5yr. warrantee on it, and I went ahead and scheduled the 30,000 mile maintenance that the service rep recommended. I got them to throw in two free oil changes, too.

So we got a decent deal and prayer helped.

Thanks for the input; it really helped to hammer out the price first, the extras later and the loan LAST.

Buyer beware: When they say change the timing belt at 60,000 miles, DO IT.
The Kia 2.5L 4 cylinder motor WILL self-destruct.

[Blackhawk]

NADA used car value for your trade

Yep, that's about what I get for a trade in. NADA! Sorry couldn't help myself.

I appreciate the info Tom. My wife is wanting me to get a new truck, but I keep holding out as long as I can. Not that I mind dealing with the salesman, I don't cause I do alot of the research you mentioned, but I just hate having another payment when my truck is already paid for.

Johnny

[Griff]

I buy the vehicles in my family. They're usually new, and have a bow-tie on the grille.

My older brother was a factory rep for Chevy for a while. I worked at a dealership as a youngster (pre-military) and know my way around them ok.

In '88 I bought a new p/u, I wanted five things, a diesel, 4-speed (compound low), and 4 wheel drive, 10,000+GWVR and a dually. Found two new '88 mdl year ones sitting on a new car lot in CA. Except for color they were identical, 454ci, auto, 1-ton dually w/4WD. Whowever spec'd them out for the dealer was an idiot, no tint to the windows AT ALL, full electrics except for the seat. I called my credit union, they provided all the details I needed for negotiation. Since it was last years model, I asked what they'd finance for a year old version with "low miles". That was the figure I walked into the dealer with. Oh yea, dealer had been indicted for fraudulent business practices on his used car lot, so I went with the "no trade" attitude. The two colors were red and white. I preferred the white one, they kept balking at giving me the deal I wanted on it, kept offering the red one, said we might have a city buyer for the white one; yea right, cities and counties always buy via bid. Took three days, but I bought the whilte for dealer cost less 75% of his factory annual rebate, worked out as $1800 UNDER dealer invoice. Finally drove it off the lot, put miles 11- 179,000 on it before I traded it in almost two years ago, during Chevy's "everyone gets an employee discount" sale. That time I called my local dealer (who did all the warranty work on the '88, along with two other Chevy's I own, sold me my wife's p/u, has done all the maintenance, 'ceptin' oil changes, on it (still under warranty). I told him what I was lookin' for, he didn't have one, since it didn't matter where I bought it, I told him if he wanted the sale, look around and locate what I wanted. (He had the exact vehicle I wanted, but in BLACK, who wants a black vehicle in TX!) Told him I'd be in the next day between 6 & 7pm so he could evaluate my old '88. He told me he closed @ 7pm. I simply informed him that if he wanted the deal, he'd wait... moot point as I arrived @ 6:45 and lo, he'd found a dealer who had what I was looking for and willing to swap vehicles with him. I wanted all the options available except: sunroof, electric adjustable pedals & back seat DVD. Told him I'd be in the following day to pick it up, wanted the windows tinted w/"limo tint", a spray in bed liner, and a flip over gooseneck hitch installed, needed to be ready by 5pm so I could leave for the deer lease in south TX. All except the hitch was installed, had to wait till after my trip for that. Paid $33,800 for a vehicle with a MSRP of $49,800. Including a 10 year 70,000 mile warranty.

Yep, "buyers" are the worst. Slightly above used car salesmen on the evildoers list. But, I admit, my local guy is great; a real exception to the rule, we spent 2 hours talkin' 'bout deer huntin', 15 minutes on pricing, and both came away feeling good. Last time I was there for some warranty stuff, we talked about the last deer season for an hour, then for about 10 minutes we discussed another new vehicle he had sittin' on the showroom floor, a beautiful burnt orange 'Vette. We discussed tradin' for either my '91 Camaro or my '55 p/u, staight up... but, alas, twasn't meant to be... he didn't like the fact that my Camaro had 192,000 miles on the original 305ci and has a slight over-heating problem; or that my '55 p/u is still in parts scattered thruout the barn! See, Tom, I was up-front with him, even though it cost me the deal! Even the 425hp 427ci in the frame of the '55 wan't impressive to him compared to the Z06 in the 'Vette. Oh, well... maybe another day... nah, when I rebuild the Camaro and finish the p/u, either will be more fun than the Z06!

This dealership represents most of what's good about local ownership and management. Low turn-over, and folks that you see in the local stores and @ high school football games. Stop ya in line @ Wally-World and ask about the wife, kid and sometimes even, "how's that new truck?" From the service guys, parts guys, and most salesfolk, they've been there 5 years AND MORE; then new guys are due to growth and their recent expansion; the same owner's family as when it was founded. Hope it stays that way. Yea, I've traded there since I moved to TX in 1990, get greeted by name, and treated like a respected, repeat customer (even if I'm not); it's a good thing. (To quote another crook)!

[HEAD0001]

Scott is sounds lke you did not let them intimidate you or push you around. and it sounds like you kept your cool. And you gfot what you want. Sounds to me like you did very well. Ain't it a hoot when you do not give them the upper hand. And especially when you had a dead vehicle. GOOD JOB.

As far as Griff is concerned, I met him and I do not think anyone could intimidate him. Tom.

[Rusty]

We have a deal here with my wife's credit union. The credit union employs a buys agent who deals with all the car dearlerships in the Tampa Bay area. We told him what kind of car we wanted he chased it down and all we had to do was go to the dealership and sign the paperwork.
I checked the net and we got a very good deal on her 2006 Honda.

[HEAD0001]

Rusty I would sure love to be the guy cashing that Bird Dog(kick back) check every month. Most Bird Dog's are from $50 to $250. Depending on whether the car is used or new. But as long as you get the deal you want, who cares. Tom.

[cshold]

BTT for Larsen

[TedH]

Buyer beware: When they say change the timing belt at 60,000 miles, DO IT.
The Kia 2.5L 4 cylinder motor WILL self-destruct.

Just so you know, that's not just a Kia thing. Many manufacturer's have engines with interference valve trains. Honda, Ford, Hyunda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, just to name a few, have engines that will damage the valves when the timing belt breaks. If you maintain your vehicle according to the manufacturer's schedule you can avoid a lot of problems down the road.

[jeepnik]

I've found the absolute best way to deal with auto sale people. But it, keep it up, and keep it forever. I bought my last personal vehicle in August of 1982. (Darned, I have to overhaul the Jeep's engine for the first time next week.) I have, however, bought several for my business. Two words, Fleet Sales. These folks know you are in business, and generally won't try a bunch of BS. Typical negotiation goes like this. Me, how much? Sales person, $xxxxx.xx. I either accept or decline. I've done my homework. The dealership I deal with knows this. So far, they've always quoted a price lower than I expected and they made a sale. The paperwork takes longer than the sale, and I usually come back the next day to sign. Why should I sit around wasting my very valuable time waiting on administrative details. Handle it like you would any other business. Be courteous, be professional.

[Curiousgb]

You reap what you sow. I pay cash for my vehicles and I would rather have a root canal than buy a car. I know what I want to pay before I walk on the lot. I hate the games. The last vehicle I bought I told the salesman (I had pen in hand) that it was between him and another dealer. Showed him the #'s and he started into a song and dance. I left went to the other dealer and wrote a check. The next day the first dealers calls and says "my manager and I are going to do something crazy." He went on for 5 mins and then stopped after a pause he asked if I had bought a car. I told him yes you missed your chance.

I don't lie to the dealer. I do my homework, I offer a fair price, and I pay CASH.

[tarkio]

You reap what you sow. I pay cash for my vehicles and I would rather have a root canal than buy a car. I know what I want to pay before I walk on the lot. I hate the games. The last vehicle I bought I told the salesman (I had pen in hand) that it was between him and another dealer. Showed him the #'s and he started into a song and dance. I left went to the other dealer and wrote a check. The next day the first dealers calls and says "my manager and I are going to do something crazy." He went on for 5 mins and then stopped after a pause he asked if I had bought a car. I told him yes you missed your chance.

I don't lie to the dealer. I do my homework, I offer a fair price, and I pay CASH.

What he said.

Just to add, if possible, never shop for a vehicle when you NEED one. And if you find yourself having to buy a car, do not make that obvious.