OT - martini cadet ?s

model55 · Post by **model55** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:13 pm

I have a martini cadet which is good for an action only and bought a Wind River .25 barrel with 1-10 twist when Midway had them on sale.I'm still trying to decide if I want 25-20 or chance a 25-35( I think it would work ).Also I was wondering what peep sight would work and where those who have done this got the wood for theirs.I'm left-handed ,so I need to decide if I want to make the wood strictly a leftie or something else.ideas?

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:04 am

I'd go for the .25-20 and make the stock for you.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:58 am

I agree with Hobie, it's YOUR rifle, make it for you.

The 25-20 is a neat little round, lots of fun and cheap to load. The 25-35 is a whole lot better than you might think. It was a seriously competitive round back in the 1920's and 1930's, used in many custom single shots for varminting and what benchrest shooting as existed then. With a single shot you can take advantage of the very fine, accurate, .25 caliber spitzer varmint bullets available today, easily load the cartridge to +3000 fps and amaze your friends with your expertise!

If it were me making the choice I would go with the 25-35, but thats just me.

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:51 pm

Check your pressure levels on the 25-35 and compare to the .310 cadet. Also check to see how much metal you will need to take out of the cadet chamber.
I dont have accurate .310 info but near as I can tell you will need to take about 64 thou out of the chamber and increase pressures by up to 10,000 psi

I thought it would make a good 25-35 or 30-30 conversion and was told that it would be more than the action was designed for. A lot of cadets here in Oz were converted to 32-20, 25-20, 218, and hornet.

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:00 pm

Model55;
The Cadet is one of my favorite actions. There should be no problem holding the .25-35. I have seen a Martini in .219 Donaldson Wasp. It took some altering of the breech block, IIRC, but it shot like a dream.

Anyway, If I was making one into a .25 cal., I would go for the .256 Win. Mag. Correctly stamped brass isn't everywhere, but brass .357's are; and the easily reform into .256's.

Yes; I know it is not a common cartridge. But look it up; it is a fine cartridge: Especially in a long gun.

Just another 2 cents.

Grace and Peace.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:03 pm

This is my second cadet ,my first is in 32 whinchester special.I have fired this on occassion although some what timidly!It does let you know when you pull the trigger.This is what got me thinking the 25-35 would work-lighter projectiles with less force recoiling back into the action.The 256 magnum could bear a look, a friend just agreed to buy a tc contender barrel in that caliber.My hesitation with the larger calibers the larger case head may bring up the pressure but I have heard a few times that these actions will hold up to 60,000 psi.The 25 -35 was about 38,000 if I remember correctly.Any way I'm still in part seach mode so nothing is firmed up yet.The wife has a 25-20 marlin so this could end up as a companion rifle.I just have a "need " to have a 25-35

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:16 pm

model55 wrote:This is my second cadet ,my first is in 32 whinchester special.I have fired this on occassion although some what timidly!It does let you know when you pull the trigger.

Yeah, I owned one in .32 WS briefly. VERY BRIEFLY!

Planned to rechamber or rebbl but wound up selling it to a friend who wanted the action.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:38 am

I have a Martini Cadet that I had rebarreled to 25-20 last year. When I got it the original barrel had been rebored to 357 however the actual bore diameter was .360"

Took it my gunsith and decided on 25-20 since I already had plenty of components. I was thinking 256 Winchester but since I had all the 25-20 stuff and nothing to shoot it with seemed like the obvious chioce.

The sights are BSA's I'd had for a while but I have seen other sets for sale.

Great little rifles. I had several at one time but sold all but this one and a .22 Martini- Greener.

JB · Post by JB » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:10 pm

Here's my Australian Naval Reserve cadet rifle. It's still in the original 310 caliber.

[/img]

bsaride · Post by **bsaride** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:56 am

So how hard is it to get action parts for these?
I have a barreled receiver and not sure what else
without doing some digging.

Jay

HORACE · Post by **HORACE** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:18 am

Hang on,

How come you Yanks somehow got all our Martini Cadet rifle actions from OZ?

Good ones are as rare as rocking horse poo here now.

I recall shooting foxes and hares spotlighting on my uncle's farm with an original 310 when I was a kid- may not have been a 'state of the art ballistics cartridge', but I don't recall having to take a second shot at these critters.

With all these new cartridges that are coming out, I often think people are trying to reinvent the wheel.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:38 am

HORACE wrote:Hang on,

How come you Yanks somehow got all our Martini Cadet rifle actions from OZ?
Good ones are as rare as rocking horse poo here now.

I recall shooting foxes and hares spotlighting on my uncle's farm with an original 310 when I was a kid- may not have been a 'state of the art ballistics cartridge', but I don't recall having to take a second shot at these critters.

With all these new cartridges that are coming out, I often think people are trying to reinvent the wheel.

A good original isn't all that easy to find around here either. Just like most surplus rifles that came into this country in the past, the guns were numerous but ammunition was not. Many fine originals were bought cheaply and converted to more easily obtained or made ammunition.

I'd love to have an original in 310!! The one I have was already goofed up and I just had it made into something that was useful again.

Ron Macy · Post by **Ron Macy** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:28 pm

I bought a Martini at an estate sale a couple of years ago. It was $165 plus a $10 transfer charge which I thought was a good price. I think if the caliber had been marked on it the price would have been higher. I knew it was .22 and when I used cerrosafe on the chamber it was 218 Mashburn Bee.

Since brass for the Bee is getting harder to find I may end up converting it to .357 Magnum some day. It's a pretty rifle and deserves to be shot.

I ended up buying dies from C-H which was a challenge itself in the Mashburn version.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:42 pm

I'm thinking of having my "spare" Cadet done in .256. Just need to decide if I want a rebarrel or have it sleeved.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:20 pm

Thank you all for your replies I like those BSA sights ,2ndovc. I had thought I would have to have the action milled to fit something but that looks like drill and tap she's set to go.I appreciated the pictures

cas · Post by **cas** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:00 pm

I will make my usual request/plea. If your rifle is in original condition, please sell it and buy another to build on. There are already far too many buba'd and butchered cadets out there.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:14 am

I have a 310 Cadet that was rechambered to 32-20 by the importer, Navy Arms. I bought it in the mid 80s at a funshow for $125, including 500 primed new Winchester 32-20 cases.

Since the bore slugged out at .316-.317, the standard .32-20 bullets I had were like a broomstick in a bathtub going down the barrel, and the Cadet "patterned" accordingly.

It was either paper patch time, or some metalwork was indicated. I sent it off to be relined to .312 and bead blasted and reblued. When it came back, it would fire factory Winchester 32-20 ammo into one ragged hole at 50 yards.

It's an attractive little number, and always an attention getter at the range. I've been offered as much as $1200 for it, but my heirs will have to deal with it's disposition.

Noah

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:27 am

Noah,

That's sharp! I had one of the Navy Arms conversions and had the same problem w/ the oversize bore for a 32-20. I sold it off but after seeing your now I wish I'd kept it.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:07 pm

Have no fear Cas if it were not beyond restoration I would not be doing this-I know what you mean I'm really hoping to run into a good 310 cadet some day-that would be a treasure.Someone tried to remove the barrel on this unsuccessfully, had a steel screw driver ,a fmj bullet and some lead fragment jammed in there.Rear sight missing parts ,missing firing pin and the list goes on.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:05 pm

Nice looking Rifle Noah. I have the same rifle, same rechamber to 32/20 from 310 cadet, same oversize bore dimensions: .316-17 Mine was bought by my Grandfather in Porterville, CA sometime in the 50's. Mine keyholed/patterned with the factory fodder also but I have some heeled bullets from a fellow lister that I'm gonna try.

Next to the 94 Win., the Cadet is next in line in terms of feeling like perfection in your hands. Alot of thought went into the design.

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:42 pm

I am pleased to see so much action on the Martini. Decided to make another post.
I have owned many Martinis over the years. It is one of my favorite actions. I have only one at this time. It is a .30-20. I used a Remington .308 barrel, had the chamber end removed and re-chambered with a .30-20 reamer. It does great with .308 bullets and is still better than I can shoot with .32 (.314- .315) bullets.
I have them from .17/222R to .32 Win. Special to .357 and several other calibers. I have seen a couple in .44 Mag and once had one in .45 Colt. I liked the thought of the Colt, but it had been poorly done with an oval chamber.
They are great rifles - and about as handy as a single shot can be. There are many calibers possible with them. I personally think the .45 Colt is too large if one wants heavy loads. The .44 Mag seems to work well, though. It is the largest base diameter I would go to today.
Grace and Peace.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:26 pm

cas wrote:I will make my usual request/plea. If your rifle is in original condition, please sell it and buy another to build on. There are already far too many buba'd and butchered cadets out there.

Agreed. One of mine has the original wood but a lousy bore. The other has a nice bore but the original wood was refinished.

IF I have anything done, it'll probably be the one with the lousy bore.

PPpastordon, ever seen one in .44-40? I've given that option some thought as well...

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:10 pm

I had a beautifull one built up in 256 win mag years ago. Also had a buddy with several in .357 mag etc.

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:52 pm

model55 wrote:Thank you all for your replies I like those BSA sights ,2ndovc. I had thought I would have to have the action milled to fit something but that looks like drill and tap she's set to go.I appreciated the pictures

There are also Parker Hale sights that mount on the butt socket like the BSAs.

Another option is a sight like this Redfield that will mount on the side of the receiver. Parker Hale also made similar sights.

If you are interested, I have some BSA and PH sights.

budliteguy · Post by **budliteguy** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:50 pm

I just picked up a cadet at the gunshow today and its a 32win. special, Its in good shape good bore but someone has installed a lyman folding rear sight and a ramp front sight. I'm afraid this thing is going to kick,its light as a feather.

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:45 pm

That's an interesting piece. That type of cocking indicator is unusual and it also looks like it is not built on the Francotte patent action which does not have the pivot pin going through top rear walls of the receiver. The lower pin (screw?) is also further back than a Francotte takedown pin. See pics of other cadets in this topic. Here are pics of the takedown procedure and innards of the Cadet action: http://www.martinihenry.com/cadet.htm The bottom pic shows the usual cocking indicator

I would be interested in knowing what markings are on that rifle.

budliteguy · Post by **budliteguy** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:57 pm

The only markings it has on it are on the left side of the receiver and on top of the barrel it has Westley- Richards Co. London. On top of the receiver it has NZ stamped and on the back of the receiver it has 913. It also has a 3 sided Trangle Stamped above Westley Richards on the receiver. 32 win.special is stamped on the barrel under the replacement rear sight. Serial no. is 58** Thats all the Markings it has on it. A 32 winchester shell does chamber in the rifle. This one does not disassemble like that.

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:10 am

budliteguy wrote:The only markings it has on it are on the left side of the receiver and on top of the barrel it has Westley- Richards Co. London. On top of the receiver it has NZ stamped and on the back of the receiver it has 913. It also has a 3 sided Trangle Stamped above Westley Richards on the receiver. 32 win.special is stamped on the barrel under the replacement rear sight. Serial no. is 58** Thats all the Markings it has on it. A 32 winchester shell does chamber in the rifle. This one does not disassemble like that.

That makes it pretty special. The .310 Westley Richards Martini Cadets were issued in NSW (New South Wales) shortly after Federation (1901), well before the general issue of the Francotte actioned cadet rifles in 1911/12. Some further info here: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-wea ... lonial.htm You'll need to scroll to the bottom of the page.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:01 pm

budliteguy wrote:I just picked up a cadet at the gunshow today and its a 32win. special. I'm afraid this thing is going to kick,its light as a feather.

I've owned such a critter. It will. Trust me.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:20 pm

Bruce is there a sight that allows cleaning the barrel thru a hole in the back of the action?I'm thinking on your offer I do appreciate it.Budlite I don't consider the recoil on mine abusive just very sudden and being so light it tends to get your attention also my sights are off need to raise the front sight height.For now it is six o'clock hold

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:21 am

There are a few and I have some examples. One is a BSA No.30 like this, which predates the very similar Parker Hale model - also available.

The major difference with the PH is that the elevation knob is on the left. I also have a Parker Hale that mounts on the side of the receiver on a dovetailed block. From memory it won't get in the way but if it does you simply slide it off for cleaning.

The sights are currently stored in oil filled jars but I can dig them out and send pics.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:08 pm

Bruce , what would your preference be? The reason I ask is I'm limited in my use of these so I'm kind of sounding out what is practical vs fanciful.The gunsmith I've asked tend to shy away fron the 25-35 idea so I may go 25-20 after all still looking at wood.Like the classic styles not Monte Carlo etc..but there sure some pretty stuff out there!

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:58 pm

Look at the .256 Win if you prefer the smaller head size (and tough cheap brass). I have a reamer and would lend it if it would benefit a fellow levergunner, to be used with care of course. Took mine in .218 for a walk today. I don't shoot groundhogs this early but we killed a couple cans. The pic is one from a "spot and stalk" hunt last summer.

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moodyholler · Post by **moodyholler** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:54 pm

I have one of the Parker Hale rear sights with the hole for the cleaning rod, but I do not have the mount. Let me know if interested. Thanks, moodyholler

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:28 am

The .256 is the way to go. If you reload it has much more potential than the .32-20 and brass is more durable.

If you need more from a .25 there are also established wilcats using the .357 Maximum case.

If I wanted a small thirty I would use one of the .30/.357 wildcats or a .30-357 Maximum. I wouldn't go to the larger headed .25-35 case.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:21 pm

Well I can see I need to get down to brass tracks.I really appreciate all the offers and ideas-going to have to make some decisions.So far I 'm got it torn down just need the old barrel out.Will let a smith do that as I don't want to continue what the PO's started-need the poor thing to be done right for a change.Bruce I sent you some PM's hope I did that right.Have a few distractions so bear with me!

model55 · Post by **model55** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:21 pm

Well so far I've managed little still trying to come up with a caliber-both local smiths want to go 25-20-I'm stubborn and want 25-35 or possibly the 256 magnum.Even looked at the 256 gnr which is the same idea but on the maximum case .Bruce Scott was a real gentleman and sent sights to look over -they are great sights too.Why I waited till I was 50 and my eyes changing for the worst is beyond me.I sit here and admire them but soon I need to make up my mind and send some back.

northwoods · Post by **northwoods** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:35 pm

I have one in 219 Zipper and no problem with feeding and no work was done to the action. The 25-35 should work fine. Action is good for 60,000 so it has been said. Po Ackley maybe. I load the Zipper to velocities of the triple duce and it does shoot little groups. No need to hot rod it.
The very best to you and yours and have fun.
Bob

cas · Post by **cas** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:51 pm

I would avoid the .25-35 at all costs. Big case head and lots of tapper. Both your worst enemy with a small, marginal strength action.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:36 am

I re-read the entire topic and wanted to add some more "advice".

I have a .25-35 single-shot. So far as it goes the cartridge is a great one. However, the tapered case reacts quickly to too high pressure and we're not talking much beyond factory pressures. I think the .25-20 or .256 Winchester would be your best bets both because of the size of the cases as they affect the gun's ability to handle pressure and the ease of loading. I once handled/shot a .30-30 Cadet. I thought it very silly and it had been altered so that one could get the cartridge round the bend. A neat little cartridge like those mentioned, the .25-20, .256 Magnum, .310 Cadet, .32-20 (or .30-20), .38 Special, and .357 Magnum are about ideal.

Whatever you do, let us know how it goes. I really like the Cadets, wish I'd bought a couple I passed by because there was another bone in sight.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:38 pm

This gun might be an excellent candidate for relining to a reasonable chambering...

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:45 pm

Frank de Haas (Chapter 50, Single Shot Rifles and Actions, 1969) wrote:

"Because of its small size it is ideal for such smaller cartridges as the .22 Long Rifle, .22 WMR, .22 Hornet, .22 Jet, .218 Bee, .256 Magnum, .25-20, .32-20, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special and .44 Magnum. It is also a good choice for some of the smaller wildcat or improved cartridges such as the .22 K-Hornet, Mashburn Bee and .22 Super Jet.

The action itself is strong enough for larger cartridges but due to its size and the small size of the barrel shank [Edit.750"] it should be limited to the smaller cartridges. This action is perfectly OK for a cartridge like the .219 Zipper or .25/35, but I would hesitate to recommend it for the .219 Improved or similar cartridges. It is the size of this action, rather than its strength, that should be and is the limiting factor as to the cartridge choice."

In the 1960s the .222 Rimmed was created for use with the Cadet action. Brass and dies are still available for this cartridge which is essentially a rimmed .222 Remington. Some more info here: http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w222rim.html

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:45 pm

The .357 Maximum is essentially a rimmed .223 Rem (.222 Remington case head) blown out and could be necked back down as mentioned earlier.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:11 pm

This is really starting to get the juices flowing to get my poor bore/original wood Cadet rechambered in .256 Win...

Hobie wrote:The .357 Maximum is essentially a rimmed .223 Rem (.222 Remington case head) blown out and could be necked back down as mentioned earlier.

I thought the .357 Max was a lengthened .357 Mag?

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:37 pm

+1 256 Mag!!!

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:49 pm

awp101 wrote:This is really starting to get the juices flowing to get my poor bore/original wood Cadet rechambered in .256 Win...

Hobie wrote:The .357 Maximum is essentially a rimmed .223 Rem (.222 Remington case head) blown out and could be necked back down as mentioned earlier.
I thought the .357 Max was a lengthened .357 Mag?

Yes, and no. When then form the .357 Max case I think they start with pretty much the same cup as the .223 Rem. Case head size is the same, the Max just has a rim. Yes, it is a lengthened .357 Mag. The cartridge world is sometimes a small one.

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:39 pm

Someone asked awhile back about .222R from .357 Max. As I had some brass and dies I had to know and this is what I found. It's easy to form brass. Set the shoulder in a 7.62X25 or some bottleneck .30 pistol die. This is the first step for .256 Win from .357 Mag. also. Took this to .25 cal. in a .256 Win. die, then to .22 cal in a .222 FL sizing die. Use Imperial sizing die wax or Rooster CFL, patience and a light touch. I can't find the pic of the finished .222R case but it come out about .060 short of what it ought to be. If I were going to build something around the Maximum case, I'd get a reamer ground rather than using the .222 reamer and cutting the rim recess on the lathe. That maximun case is a mighty handy case to have around. I think the case in the pic is .30X357Max.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:40 pm

Well I managed to get the old barrel removed-wasn't a big deal took the smith more time to set up then removing it.Old barrel is of no use inless it was relined and rechambered-some people (pervious owner ) should be banned from handling tools period.Still up in the air about Caliber just because the local smiths are limited ( and only seem to believe it can a 25-20-which really is not a bad choice, just not mine but there could be worst fate

).25-35 may have to wait my resolve is weakening.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:08 pm

If I can ever get my stock sent I'll move on with this.Very limited as far as lefty stocks for this.Gun sits at the gunsmith's who has had it longer then me

sureshot · Post by **sureshot** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:11 am

Hi Model55,
Have you checked the rate of twist in your barrel blank? It would take a 1/9 twist to stabilize the 117gr bullets in 25-35, but a 1/12 twist would work for lighter bullets like the 86gr Remingtons in any of the 25 cal. cartridges. The twist rate might help you decide which one would be best.
I like the 25-20 myself.

Steve

OT - martini cadet ?s

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