Birds of prey....Would you if it were legal?

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:36 pm

Between reading "Sixguns" and other sources of gun history it's very apparent that it was not only acceptable to shoot Hawks, Eagles, Owls, etc in days gone by but in most circles they were no better thought of than coyotes and other vermin. However, For myself and many others on the board we have grown up with these birds of prey being big time no-no's when it comes to shooting. To be perfectly honest I've been fine with that up to and including today. But I have my moments. Seeing many many hawks, eagles and owls but little to nothing in the way of vittles when out small game hunting get's under my skin some days. I very much see them as competition. Would I shoot them if it were legal? I really don't know. After all I like em, they're way cool. But some days.........

So if the laws were to change would any of the above become targets of opportunity for any of you or would they remain on the "sit, watch and photograph" list?

LK

Note: This is completely hypothetical. No way am I condoning shooting these critters. Protection of my small game hunting is one thing, breaking federal law is something completely different and I'm not one for pushing envelopes.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:40 pm

Unless they were actively depredating my personal yard fowl, or small animals, I'd leave them alone. I never have issues with hunters doing what's legal

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:45 pm

I fish with them all the time.
ospreys

eagles

we almost lost them from DDT. I was 14 before I saw my first bird of prey, a red tail hawk sitting on a fence rail in s Texas.
They are a common sight now.
I don't begrudge them anything.

As far as misty-eyed goes, think what you choose. I have roadrunners, foxes, cottontails, jackrabbits, raccoons - I can do without them - squirrels, plenty of dove, even ring-tailed cats.
I also like going to the bat cave and watching red tails take bats when they emerge.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:04 pm

I can't get all Misty Eyed about Not seeing any extinct animal or Bird. If I have never seen one so be it. So whats next, make Pheasant hunting illegal or Quail or Rabbit because We are overrun with Birds of Prey that are eating them faster than They can reproduce ? Would I kill one if it were legal "Yes". As far as protecting Your barnyard Chickens (nuff said). I live in the middle or Rice Paddys, on a five mile drive to Town I make it a game to count as many as I can see. They are definitley not extinct anymore but the afforementioned Game Birds are becoming that way.
Perry

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:07 pm

It all depends on ratios.

BoP activity can be a good indicator of small game density/activity. In that case they are helpful.

If there are too many of them, then they can be no better than lamb-stealing scavengers.

Right now there seems to be a modest balance, and if I had the time/money/location, I would LOVE to get into Falconry (in other countries you can use birds up to Golden Eagle size...)

A Predator that needs depredation needs depredation.

Otherwise, they should be left alone.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:08 pm

I personally have felt my being a hunter that I feel a certain kinship with other animals who also hunt and have never felt a desire to kill these predators be they lions, leopards, cougars, wolves, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, eagles, hawks, etc. just because they may be potential competition. If they were a direct threat to me, my family, or my livestock or pets then I would feel the right to defend myself. Other than that I would appreciate their place in nature, and only shoot what I was going to eat. Just my opinion.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Friends Call Me Ji wrote:I personally have felt my being a hunter that I feel a certain kinship with other animals who also hunt and have never felt a desire to kill these predators be they lions, leopards, cougars, wolves, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, eagles, hawks, etc. just because they may be potential competition. If they were a direct threat to me, my family, or my livestock or pets then I would feel the right to defend myself. Other than that I would appreciate their place in nature, and only shoot what I was going to eat. Just my opinion.

See above. +1

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:11 pm

No but I've been tempted a time or two, I do like to see them about and when I was a full time Gamekeeper I never had a problem with them taking my Pheasant and Partridge chicks as my pens were covered by netting, the few wild birds they took didn't amount to much and they did kill a bit of vermin, so "live and let live".
However if Bird of Prey numbers increase to an unnatural size and other wildlife is declining because of it then maybe some thinning out is necessary.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:14 pm

Birds of Prey... don't always.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:20 pm

OI, I don't know where You are but where I am , and I have been in this same area for 65 years and there is no Modest Balance,there is a Major imbalance. It used to be that I could drive any country road or major Hiway here and see all kinds of small animals. Not any more, I'm lucky if I even see a Pheasant or a Rabbit.
Now please don't think that I am advocating kill them all but a little thinning could certainly be in order. Thats My take.
Perry

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:24 pm

pwl44m wrote:OI, I don't know where You are but where I am , and I have been in this same area for 65 years and there is no Modest Balance,there is a Major imbalance. It used to be that I could drive any country road or major Hiway here and see all kinds of small animals. Not any more, I'm lucky if I even see a Pheasant or a Rabbit.
Now please don't think that I am advocating kill them all but a little thinning could certainly be in order. Thats My take.
Perry

If that is the situation where you are, then SSS. Imbalance is never a good thing.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:40 pm

I would not feel morally wrong humanely eliminating ANY animal which was plentiful in number which was harming either something I depended on for food, or some other more endangered species. I've never been in a situation where any bird of prey species was present in sufficient numbers or posing enough threat to anything for me to to even be tempted to harm one, however.

Mostly the laws wouldn't interfere with that, fortunately.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:50 pm

Simply put...NO!!

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:49 pm

We had a ton of rabbits and squirrels before the bald eagles moved in 80 yards behind my house. The eagles along with the owls and hawks
have wiped out the small game. We also have a rule that the new puppy does not go out by himself since he's so small.

If there was a total collapse of society and we were dependent on the small game I would put the local raptors on the hit list. Other wise I'll leave them alone.

jb

44-40 Willy · Post by **44-40 Willy** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:05 pm

(putting on my asbestos underwear)

When I was growing up, we were taught by our elders to kill every hawk or owl we got the chance to. Losing chickens and other poultry to them was a common occurrence. I've set many a leg hold trap on top of a tall fence post to catch them. We had one hawk that was picking our chickens off that had normal shotgun range pretty much figured and would stay just out of range. A borrowed 10 gauge made short work of him.

Now that it's illegal to shoot them, we've got way too many. I haven't seen a rabbit in years. Makes me think of those folks who think that wolves are just big fluffy puppies and want to spread them around to where other folks live.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:06 pm

44-40 Willy wrote:(putting on my asbestos underwear)

When I was growing up, we were taught by our elders to kill every hawk or owl we got the chance to. Losing chickens and other poultry to them was a common occurrence. I've set many a leg hold trap on top of a tall fence post to catch them. We had one hawk that was picking our chickens off that had normal shotgun range pretty much figured and would stay just out of range. A borrowed 10 gauge made short work of him.

Now that it's illegal to shoot them, we've got way too many. I haven't seen a rabbit in years. Makes me think of those folks who think that wolves are just big fluffy puppies and want to spread them around to where other folks live.

Location, location, location. Ratios, ratios, ratios.

SSS.

You have my permission.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:44 pm

I don't have any real desire to kill birds of prey, even though we've lost a few cats and several guineas to owls over the years. Except for prairie dogs, I don't kill any animal just "for fun". I will, however, kill any coyote that I find on or near my property or near a neighbors property. In cattle country, coyotes are just stone cold killers and need to be dealt with accordingly.
Racoons love to kill chickens too, if they get the chance. I don't kill them unless I catch them "red handed".

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:11 pm

Since it is for the most psrt illegal to kill selected birds of prey, I leave them alone, that is to say, I don't harrass or kill them.

If it were legal, I wouldn't compete with them for game resources, I'd kill any I saw on an animal I'd prefer to have around to hunt.

If I saw one on a rat, cat, stray dog, weasel, or a Democrat, he could have it.

If I saw one on a rabbit, a dove, or a squirrel, he'd be an indian head-dress for one of the grandkids.

It's my plan to be at the top of the food-chain. The Alpha predator in my particular environ.

Racoons are cute and interesting rodents, but they are mischevious and destructive to nesting birds. It's my choice to kill any that I see in a place where I think there should be turkeys.

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:59 pm

In Wisconsin in the 60s we shot the heck outta the owls & hawks & there was alot of small game
now its hard from what I hear to find the small game there, way to many raptors & fisher
would I blast em now? only if I had to

ollogger

jh45gun · Post by **jh45gun** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:28 pm

ollogger wrote:In Wisconsin in the 60s we shot the heck outta the owls & hawks & there was alot of small game
now its hard from what I hear to find the small game there, way to many raptors & fisher
would I blast em now? only if I had to

ollogger

I agree I used to hunt snow shoe hares when I was young back in the 60's up to the mid 70's. I have not ate one in over 30 years not for lack of trying I just never see them anymore never see their tracks either. I blame that on the winged predators being protected and the fur bearers because of lack of trapping these days. I could not shoot an eagle because of what it represents but I would have no issue with owls and hawks there are too many again a balance issue. I live in Northern WI.

Bridger · Post by **Bridger** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:40 pm

If it were legal, I'd shoot one in a heartbeat if I crossed paths with it. Back where I am from rabbits are almost nonexistent, but coyotes and red tailed hawks abound.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:21 pm

What Ji said. Nope would not shoot them

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:41 pm

I have mixed feelings about this subject. I was raised not to shoot raptors but my Grandfather hated them and shot them any chance he got. He called red tail hawks "chicken hawks". In his mind they were in direct competition with him for food. I shot a great horned owl when I was a little boy because I was walking home in the dark and it landed in a tree very near me and scared me. I got in huge trouble for that.

I hear about how the squirrel hunting is hurt by the hawks and I know they hunt all the time and always come in if you are predator calling. I do not support shooting every critter you cross paths with really. A man could kill a huge number of hawks every year if he did. There are still plenty of squirrels really even in places I see a lot of hawks.

It is hard to see a hawk or owl as a true varmint.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:00 pm

Some have neglected to calculate the differences in farming from then until now. Farmers are intent on sterilizing fence rows which decreases small game habitat, particularly upland game. Do you suppose this might have something to do with the decrease in game?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:09 pm

Nope!

Cimarron Red · Post by **Cimarron Red** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:14 pm

No. I wouldn't shoot one even if it were legal to do so. They are just too magnificent! I was raised to respect and obey game laws, and that included those laws protecting birds of prey. Some habits are forever, I guess.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:54 pm

madman4570 wrote:Nope!

Rather cheeky response considering you've not been in the conversation 'til now.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:41 pm

Yes I would; no special sentimentality for them and although they are magnificent, so are 12-point bucks we want. And other game animals - the more beautiful and magnificent they are, the more we want them on our wall. Do we pass up that big buck and wait for a mangy little doe?

They are a renewable resource. Their numbers will depend on food source and habitat, not hunting, just like most species.

I wonder in general why one animal's life is considered more important than another's. Many people don't want us to kill a deer - they are so pretty - but will eek when they see a mouse and demand it be killed. Rats - even worse. Just because an animal is small or ugly, its life means nothing? I had a friend who had a rat as a pet, and when it died he cried. I have frogs, I would not sacrifice one of them to save a blue whale. Yet many people would step on them and laugh about it.

Bottom line, as with deer, or any game animal, if it's legal, it's fair game. Size, magnificence, beauty, position in the food chain are not the determining factors. They're all animals and ours to make use of.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:22 am

L_Kilkenny wrote:Between reading "Sixguns" and other sources of gun history it's very apparent that it was not only acceptable to shoot Hawks, Eagles, Owls, etc in days gone by but in most circles they were no better thought of than coyotes and other vermin. However, For myself and many others on the board we have grown up with these birds of prey being big time no-no's when it comes to shooting. To be perfectly honest I've been fine with that up to and including today. But I have my moments. Seeing many many hawks, eagles and owls but little to nothing in the way of vittles when out small game hunting get's under my skin some days. I very much see them as competition. Would I shoot them if it were legal? I really don't know. After all I like em, they're way cool. But some days.........

So if the laws were to change would any of the above become targets of opportunity for any of you or would they remain on the "sit, watch and photograph" list?

LK

Note: This is completely hypothetical. No way am I condoning shooting these critters. Protection of my small game hunting is one thing, breaking federal law is something completely different and I'm not one for pushing envelopes.

Got a remington sp-10 that would be just right for the job, #2 or BB ought to be about the right sized shot for eagles. Owls and hawks go down well with #4's, I would guess.
By the way, I'm an old geezer. I have seen both Owls and hawks get shot in my youth -- when they were harassing the chickens on grandpa's farm.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:31 am

when I was in college I taught my cousins how to cruise the edge of the soybean fields at the end of the day and ambush fat quail.
When my cousin got older he bred top line redbone hounds and hunted them.
You couldn't find a squirrel or quail in half the county now, and I don't think it's because of the hawks.

JB · Post by JB » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:41 am

I'm not an Elmer Keith fan at all, but I understand his point about shooting eagles and hawks. Growing up I knew lost of folks who were taught to shoot hawks on sight. When you depended on chickens to help keep the family fead, they were all classified as "chicken hawks". I'm sure if we'd have had eagles around they would have been shot as well back then.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:50 am

My position is it depends on your circumstances, if any predators are killing your food source or livelihood by all means kill em off if legal to do so.
But definitely not just for the sport off it.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:44 am

everyone is going to have their anecdotal data and their own situation.
and then there is the law.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:39 am

bulldog1935 wrote:everyone is going to have their anecdotal data and their own situation.
and then there is the law.

The "law" also makes it a Felony for me to pick up certain raptor feathers...

Sometimes "the law" is simply stupid.

That's why Judges hate Jury Nullification....

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:47 am

bulldog1935 wrote:everyone is going to have their anecdotal data and their own situation.
and then there is the law.

That`s what i said.

I think we were agreeing with each other

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:48 am

Who really knows the Law ? I called Fish & Game on Mountain Lions and Their response was " if they are Stalking or Harrassing Your Animals then You have the right to shoot them" butThey wan to know about it within 24 hours. I don't know what the Laws are concerning Hawks but I would assume Eagles are off limits regardless what they were after.
Perry

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:09 pm

I blame the hawks, and bob cats, etc for the pretty much extinction of the bob white quail in my area. When I was a kid, a lot of people trapped and the old men, my grandfather be one, always killed ever hawk he saw, then the 70's and 80's came along with the crackdown on killing hawks, and the trappers became fewer and the quail are no more.

The rabbits have come back a little this year, but have been mostly gone for several years, I guess the main benefit to the hawks, might be the shortage of snakes in my area, as I believe they also kill a lot of those, and I am all for that, of course the roadrunners get a lot of snakes too.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:52 am

For your viewing pleasure:

Watched these fish from a local river (actually 5 total, 3 adult, 2 year olds) while squirrel hunting last Jan. 1. And no, I didn't see a squirrel and only one set of tracks in a 1 day old dusting of snow):

And some oldies but goodies I got off the campfire years ago:

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:23 am

That last picture reminds me how kids looked coming and going from school when i was a kid.

Newtmaker · Post by **Newtmaker** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:33 am

Fox.jpg

I couldn't bring myself to shoot any of them. I live in a pretty urban area of central FL yet am surrounded by "Green" areas. I have baby Barred Owls every year, as well as 2 or 3 varieties of hawks, Osprey, and even the Vultures all the time. I can sit on my front porch and watch owls and hawks gather prey. Up until recently I even had Fox and Bobcat on occasion, but not for a couple of years now. I feel fortunate to be able to be so close to Mother Nature considering where I live

Walt

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:44 am

Nope ... wouldn't shoot them.

I also find it interesting that many of these threads devolve into "the natural predators are destroying the wild game", while no one mentions the impact of man and overpopulation (and consequent loss of natural habitat, not to mention extensive hunting that wipes out game populations) on the reduction of game and wildlife. Funny, when no man was around there were plenty of flying predators...as well as food sources. Frankly, I think we should be looking at managing human population rather than other animals.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:23 am

alnitak wrote:Nope ... wouldn't shoot them.

I also find it interesting that many of these threads devolve into "the natural predators are destroying the wild game", while no one mentions the impact of man and overpopulation (and consequent loss of natural habitat, not to mention extensive hunting that wipes out game populations) on the reduction of game and wildlife. Funny, when no man was around there were plenty of flying predators...as well as food sources. Frankly, I think we should be looking at managing human population rather than other animals.

You're thinkin has some validity.......kinda. This thread didn't "devolve" into that kinda thread, I started it off that way right from the start. The fact of the matter is that we are here and aren't going no place. Another fact is natural predators eat so you can't go around saying they don't have an impact or that their impact is solely natural. It's natural for me to kill and eat too. It's true that cover isn't what it was 200 years ago or even 20 years ago. But the timbers I'm talking about are rarely hunted and being timbers mean that they are cover. Can't stand in a timber and blame man for removing the cover can we?

Let's look at one of the timbers I hunt at. Last year I saw 3 owls, 2 hawks, a red fox and a coyote in one morning of hunting. Now these critters aren't just killin and eating squirrels, rabbits, pheasants, etc but they do eat some. Let's say for arguments sake that each only kills one "game" critter a week. That's 7 x 52 = 364 critters that could potentially go in my freezer. No, not all of them would of lived anyway, I'm not gonna go out and shoot that many and truth be told the timber couldn't support all of those if they did but to deny that they have an impact on my hunting, which being top predator in the woods I have every right to, isn't intellectually honest. Not saying your choice to hold fire is a bad one, just that your argument has some flaws.

Your argument is the exact same one that the bunny and tree huggers use. I don't buy it from them either.

gak · Post by **gak** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:53 am

We've got coyotes taking over (and taking pets) in Paradise Valley (NE Phoenix) and I saw one trotting around a neighborhood in south-central Scottsdale the other morning, as if it was nothing. I'm thinking some of our eagles or hawks should swoop down and take care of some of the 'yote pups!

jh45gun · Post by **jh45gun** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:19 pm

Does not take a genius to figure out for a lot of predators the only predator against them is man. When laws are made to protect predators there becomes an imbalance. With trapping on the decline and State DNR programs introducing predators into their states it can be a problem. Then you have all the animal rights groups and the indian tribes making a fuss on issues like Wolf Hunting and Trapping on a species that needs to be controlled.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:24 pm

I'm happy if there are enough raptors to control the feral cats - speaking of predators

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:00 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:I'm happy if there are enough raptors to control the feral cats - speaking of predators

I never thought about that, I hope it true, but a lot of cats could probably hold their own against a hawk, but maybe not, when attacked from the air. Feral cats are something I usually kill when encountered, as they also take a lot of game.

And regarding coyotes, in the Texas hill country, where I have hunted, the land owners paid a $50 bounty for every coyote shot while hunting on their place. I was lucky enough to collect one coyote on that trip and was paid the bounty.
One Rancher down there told me that an adult male coyote will kill a fawn a night during the fawning season, and that is why they paid a bounty because they made a lot of their living off of deer hunters. All I can say is they put their money where their mouth is.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:59 pm

alnitak wrote:Nope ... wouldn't shoot them.

I also find it interesting that many of these threads devolve into "the natural predators are destroying the wild game", while no one mentions the impact of man and overpopulation (and consequent loss of natural habitat, not to mention extensive hunting that wipes out game populations) on the reduction of game and wildlife. Funny, when no man was around there were plenty of flying predators...as well as food sources. Frankly, I think we should be looking at managing human population rather than other animals.

Yes, but why would you spare them and then shoot dozens of crows? People hunt. For food, depradation control, trophies, and fun. Raptors could probably suit all four.

If the issue is rarity and depletion of the population, perhaps a system could be devised to limit the take. Perhaps hunters could be licensed, and purchase additional licenses just for raptors (let's call them "tags" for now) and the number of these "tags" issued could be limited to a number that would keep the population in balance. If the demand for these "tags" was greater than the supply, perhaps a lottery system could be instituted and hunters could apply for a chance for one. Just thinking out loud - I'm certainly not advocating a species be hunted to extinction.

mohavesam · Post by **mohavesam** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:45 am

"If it were legal..." was the OP question. Probably not is my answer. I have "frisbee'ed a hawk that was perched in my tree eyeballing my cat once. But I digress...

I have received a $250 reward for turning in a written complaint on a shooter who killed an owl a few years back. It was a proud moment. I'd not hesitate to do it again.

As it is now illegal to maim or kill such species, a criminal act makes one a criminal, whether they are caught or not. I would not think much of a person who rationalizes a criminal act.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:18 pm

The shortage of small game is not due to the predators. It is due to habitat loss. With good habitat small game will reproduce faster than most predators can keep up and if they do they will begin dying off from lack of prey. Your problem is that you live in California where the environment has been so raped, pillaged and plundered it is a miracle there is anything left. Your game was destroyed by housing tracts, shopping malls, freeways, etc.

I know. I am a native Californian who lived there until age 62 when I moved to Misouri seven years ago. We have game large and small everywhere. The roadside shoulders are littered with corpses of every beast you mentioned plus armadillos and yet we have an abundance of almost everything. The only thing scarce around here is bobwhites and it wasn't the birds that got them it was clean fence rows and fescue pastures.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:07 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:when I was in college I taught my cousins how to cruise the edge of the soybean fields at the end of the day and ambush fat quail.
When my cousin got older he bred top line redbone hounds and hunted them.
You couldn't find a squirrel or quail in half the county now, and I don't think it's because of the hawks.

One word: Fireants.

As to the OP: i don't believe there is a simple answer to the question. In years when there's lots of rabbits, there'll be a few more red-tailed hawks. Since I don't hunt the rabbits, I don't begrudge the occasional rabbit to provide some dietary change from mice! I just can't get worked up over them the way I do re. coyotes, feral dogs, crows or flying rats! But, if they were a problem, I'd thin 'em out!