What's the go to choice for a coach gun?

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:43 pm

I've been hearing a lot of mixed reviews on the Stogers so I'm thinking something else might be in order. What's on the current list?

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:12 pm

I have been shooting a Stoeger for the last couple years. (My shoulders don`t like to pump my 97 without pain.)
So far it has been working just fine. I would rather not have a hammer double.
Used doubles around here bring more than a new Stoeger does.

pshort · Post by **pshort** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:12 pm

Howdy,
I've had really good luck with a TTN, hammer, coach shotgun..
They sell in the $400 range.. I tried a $250 one from Fleet Farm and
took it back the next day! The hinge broke loose from the bbl the first time I opened it..
I guess you start cheap and work your way up 'til you're happy.. OR,
get something decent the first time... YMMV...
The bbl's on mine are regulated really well at about 25 yds...
I tried some slugs, after I measured the bore ID. It was slightly larger
than the bbl on my 870... I don't know anything about the Stoegers..

Paul

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Is the Rossi Overland a Stoeger? I got one off a fellow forumite in 20 gauge, with hammers, and 26" barrels, Mod and Imp Cyl, IIRC. Have put a few hundred thru it shooting clay birds. Very nice. Seems very solid.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:54 pm

Not sure Blaine, just checked and the only thing they list now are single shots.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:31 pm

USSG has some decent coach style SxS shotties. by all accounts they seem reasonbaly good for the price, though I'm not sure how you're looking to use these things or if you need something pricier. Found one on Bud's for under $300.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:59 pm

My wife actually expressed an interest in my long guns, wanting to know which ones were loaded in case she needed one. I think she needs one of her own. I'll pay what I have to but I don't need a hand built engraved master piece either.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:17 pm

The Cimarron Arms 1878 is a thing of beauty. I personally prefer the 26" barrel for a double duty bird gun but the 20" coach sounds perfect for strictly home defense. MUCH prefer a hammergun for this purpose since you can have ammo chambered with the hammer down on halfcock (no kids in the house of course).
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/shotgu ... 8cg26.html
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/shotgu ... 878cg.html

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:19 am

Ji,
I can see no hint of a butt plate or recoil pad in that picture?

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:27 am

Mescalero wrote:Ji,
I can see no hint of a butt plate or recoil pad in that picture?

i think your shoulder is the recoil pad... :O

Bridger · Post by **Bridger** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:05 am

I was in a LGS the other day and I looked at coach gun-wish like all I get out I could remember the brand. It was from China I think and it felt like the biggest piece of junk shotgun ever made in the history of the world. Whatever it was there is no way I'd ever pay the $400 they were asking for it.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:55 am

The Cimarron gun is the old TTN, just a new importer. Parts are a bear but I have never a part part break yet so... It's a pretty hefty gun so no need for a recoil pad. It does have a butt plate.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:48 am

Mescalero wrote:Ji,
I can see no hint of a butt plate or recoil pad in that picture?

Yup, has steel butt plate but no recoil pad. A pad would look funky on this vintage-look gun IMMHO.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:08 am

That was not readily visible in the other pic.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:42 am

Find a good quality, long barreled double for $350 or less and cut it off to 22 inches. I really like Ithica, LeFever etc. and I prefer hammerless, especially for defense work. It doesn't hurt one to be left cocked for years on end or it doesn't take long to drop in a couple of rounds. Most of the newer guns will need their cocking rods shortened to let the barrels hang open to where the shells will clear the standing breach. Older guns were made this way.
I bought the wife a Remington/Baikal, (made in Russia) 12 gauge that has short barrels. They can be had with screw in chokes for around $400. Of course if you want real quality try a Baretta sxs. (It's what I shoot)

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:45 am

I'm thinking a hammerless would be the best for her less to do and less to go wrong. I have heard many good things about the Baikals.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:44 am

Bridger, that would be the TTN copy of the Colt 1878. They are pretty rough... but they smooth up well. Heavy, but in a short barrelled coach gun that's not entirely a BAD thing.

I have 2 IGA/Stoegers, the Coach Gun (20") and an Uplander (26"). Both are late 80's vintage and have been used almost exclusively in CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) since new. Many, many thousands of rounds thru each.

I also have a Rossi Coach Gun in 20 guage. Flawless.

And lastly I have a TTN 1878 from Cimarron.

Folks buy Baikal's, Libertys, Stevens, and a few other brands. All have certain issues, and are the frequent subject of discussions on the SASS Wire. Unfortunately, they don't keep a repository of older topics, so if it's been a few months, even a search won't find the topic... ergo, it keeps being brought up as tho' it's a "new" topic... kinda tiring and sad. What I've observed over my 12 years on that board and 27 years of my own involvement in cowboy action shooting, is that folks tend to recommend what they own. They'll trash whatever they've had a "bad" experience with.

One of the things that I've often wondered about, and maybe Steve (Nate Kiowa Jones) can add to... with shotguns especially, folks tend to buy the cheapest (as in less expensive) brands, and that often translates into poor to middlin' quality. They then spend good dollars havin' them "tuned" and modified to aid the speed desired in CAS. It leads me to believe that some mods do affect reliability.

I wouldn't get a stainless Stoeger, I've seen one that cracked from the bottom of the breach down thru the frame, Stevens are good, reliable guns, but you have to relieve the cocking levers to get them to stay open of their own volition enough to clear shells over the top of the breach.

SKBs and BSSs are very popular, but like other single trigger guns, you have to keep the mechanism clean & in good repair.

I like the simplicity of the double trigger guns. Enjoy the "shoppin'"!

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:49 pm

I have owned both a Stoeger IGA Uplander, and a USSR made Baikal and they were both very reliable guns that I would not hesitate to recommend. They weren't short barreled coach guns both were 28" barreled bird guns which were a tad heavy but built like a T-34 tank.

Me and my Soviet Union Baikal Chukar hunting on Maui

Nazgul · Post by **Nazgul** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:22 pm

I shoot a Stoeger coach gun, hammerless. No problems. Also have a CZ hammer 12 gauge double. Really nice, should be at $700. No complaints about the CZ either. Don't have a lot of rounds through it yet.

Don

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:56 pm

Rusty wrote:I'm thinking a hammerless would be the best for her less to do and less to go wrong. I have heard many good things about the Baikals.

I have a Baikal 12 SxS with all the chokes. I got the hammer 20 because in order for a hammerless SxS to be ready to go, you have to keep it cocked, and trust a safety and a sear, and the spring might take a set....IMO, you should never leave a shotgun cocked.

Actually, now that I have the 870 Tactical with 6 in the tube, and another 20 on the sling, a SxS is not really needed anymore.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:03 pm

I have allways objected for that very reason, which is why I have a hammer double.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:34 am

Ji, did you just say ... chukar hunting on MAUI??!!!
Now that's paradise!

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:14 pm

I still have those two old Stevens I got back in the Shooters World heyday.
You guys should have seen that:
Long guns stacked on pallets,
pistols in 55 gallon drums!

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:09 pm

Rusty, grandson Jerry3 has a Stoger coach gun in 12ga and has not had any trouble with it at all.He used it when we were cowboy shooting trouble free.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:46 pm

Mine is an early (pre-Cimarron) TTN, from the second import lot.. It is hell-for-stout, and still tight, after several thousand rounds, including 3" 000Buck and 600-grain Brenneke slugs.. It will not close completely on a cigarette paper on the standing breech.. Barrels fall open from their own weight, at the touch of the toplever.. It has auto rebounding hammers with interrupting sears. I had to stone the water-table, to smooth off burrs from number stamping.. I also shortened the trigger sear-blades, and pinned the triggers in proper position, and reshaped the pregnant-looking trigger guard. I pared a lot of wood off the fore-end, turning it into a modified splinter type. Lastly, I did a lot of surgery to the buttstock, removing a lot more wood; fluting the comb, Slimming the wrist, and installing a brown recoil pad ... it is about as close to an 1878 Colt as i can make it, without changing out parts..

It comes up nice and solid, and shoots where it looks.. At 10 yards, 10 000 balls fill a 5" circle, and at 25 yards, anything inside a 12" circle will be in deadly peril.. Bores are straight cylinder, but I did take the liberty of deepening the chambers to 3 1/2" and relieving the forcing cones..

The hammer spurs are each offset toward centerline, and are both easily cocked at once, using the thumb of the shooting hand.. "Slap-cocking" this model is NOT recommended..

The TTN goes to the hills with me, on my spring, summer, and early-fall jaunts, as bear spray..

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:24 am

Buck Elliott wrote:
The TTN goes to the hills with me, on my spring, summer, and early-fall jaunts, as bear spray...

nice...very nice... :)

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:30 am

Buck Elliott wrote:The TTN goes to the hills with me, on my spring, summer, and early-fall jaunts, as bear spray..

Excellent.

If I could recommend anything, it would be to remove the "cheese grater" spurs on the top of the hammers. Those'll ruin the inside of your thumb or palm when cocking!

I didn't lengthen the chambers, tho' my forcing cones have been relieved and chambers polished so plastic shells jump out like it has ejectors!

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:07 am

I have reamed the forcing cones on every shotgun I own..........except my L.C. Smith.

mergus · Post by **mergus** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:00 pm

If you can lay your hands on a Spartan coach gun, the Russian Remington some call it, do it. My father bought a 20 ga to have for an around the house gun. It was very tight. Actually hard to open. I sent it off to Kiowa Nate Jones and got his action job, and it is a very sweet gun. I have used it for jump shooting ducks with 3" steel shells and killed many birds with it, including doubles on wood ducks.

Alot of gun snobs looked downtheir nose at the Remington Russians, but I wouldn't hesitate to own one.

Mergus

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:06 pm

Hammer-spur checkering on my TTN is flat-topped, providing just the right purchase for cocking, without tearing up anything (me included).
Slimming the stock and fore-end allowed the gun to "come alive"; not so much from weight reduction, but because it is so much easier to get hold of and bring to bear... (pun not intended..)
The recoil pad was added to provide a non-slip, non-marring point for resting the gun in a corner, or on the ground, against a tree. The heavy loads were actually more comfortable to shoot, with the original, smooth-steel butt-plate, because it could move a little when firing, rather that cementing itself to one's shoulder under recoil...
I do not practice or condone "palm cocking" of a hammer gun.. As I have seen it done, it is slower, less positive and more dangerous than thumb-cocking, especially if both hammers can be cocked simultaneously as the gun is brought up. Fingers are more-easily kept off the triggers, while the non-shooting hand controls the muzzles. The firing hand then find the stock wrist and the triggers by the time everything is lined up for the first shot...
Years ago, I owned and relied on a Baikal hammer gun; even carried it in my truck when I was hauling perishable foods to the east coast.. In some ways, it was "prettier" than the TTN, but not nearly as solid nor as tough as the Chinese TTN.. When I sold the Baikal, i bet I missed it for nearly an hour...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:08 pm

While it may seem foolish to some, one of my favorite aspects of the TTN is its ability to be transformed from a bulbous 'clunker', into a very handsome, shootable gun.. Shaping the stock, within the parameters of the available wood was a pleasant challenge, as was the minor action wotk I performed on it.. It still draws curious onlookers, when I slip it out of its travel case..

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:52 pm

Buck Elliot,
Unless I have missed something, I can not find a reference to whether or not you reamed the forcing cones or not?

Tommy Reb · Post by **Tommy Reb** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:01 pm

If you are interested in an exposed hammer gun, then the Pioneer Arms is the very best I have found. Greener action and nicely done. However, hard to find.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:55 pm

Mescalero, in my first comment, I mentioned deepening the chambers, and "relieving" (reaming) the forcing cones....

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:02 am

tomclink wrote:If you are interested in an exposed hammer gun, then the Pioneer Arms is the very best I have found. Greener action and nicely done. However, hard to find.

That's the one I was trying to remember:

They list a 2 barrel set, 18.5" & 24" that I'd very much love to have!

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:51 am

OK,
I missed the language.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:49 am

Rusty wrote:I've been hearing a lot of mixed reviews on the Stogers so I'm thinking something else might be in order. What's on the current list?

Besides the leverguns I sell and work the CAS SXS's too. Of the lower end SXS's the Stoeger is probably most common available. The action is not too bad right out of the box, but that's mainly because they are setup fairly loose fitted so the parts don't require a lot of fitting.

(Baikal parts tend to be too big then oversprung to overcome the poor fit making them stiff out-of-the-box. I prefer this over the stoeger becuase it's much easier to re-fit oversize parts and reduce springs than to add metal to too loose parts)

The problem with loose fitted parts is some of the CAS shooters run the Stoeger hard, slamming them open for fast reloads. I know of some really fast shooters that have litereally destroyed the Stoeger slamming it open running it hard. The barrels fell off. Most have had action work. The objective is to get it to open easier, open wider and stay open for the reloads. When opened most internal SXS’s will try to close back about half way. This is because in certain areas it is a preferred way to carry it in the field and you close it as it comes to the shoulder. This doesn’t work well for the CAS game.
Some folks are doing work on these by just changing or modifying the cockers and/or reducing the hammer springs so the gun will stay open wider The problem with just these mod is it can lead to the forearm hanger on the bottom of the barrels cracking and break off with hard use. It has been reported several times on the wire and I have had three sent to me that were cracked.
What happens when the cockers and/or reducing the hammer springs alone are done is, the hook tries to roll off the hinge pin forcing the forearm-iron hard into the forearm hanger/lug there on the bottom of the barrel when the gun is slammed open cracking the hanger or even pulling the under rib loose. To avoid these problems the hinge area needs to be retimed so it will open even wider but the hammers go to full cock early in the opening. The extra travel will allow the hammer springs to cushion the opening and when it springs back, the gun is still open enough to reload.

A few years ago Stoeger was bought out by Bennelli and ever since getting parts and service has been difficult.

For an entry level priced hammerless SXS, now days I steer folks to the Russian made Baikal. The Baikal is a standard Anson Deeley style lock that is very strong. For years they were imported by EAA of Florida as the Bounty huner then Remington international as the Spartan line but they are now coming in through USSG, a sub of EAA. Back when I heard Remington had them I was concerned that getting parts was going to be an issue so I did some calling and found out that EAA was doing the service and parts for these Remington guns. From a gunsmiths point of view parts are important.

As for the TTN/Cimarron/EMF imported copy of the 1878 Colt Hammered SXS, when they first came out Walt Johnson of TTN sent sampples to me to try out. This was about 2004 or so. I wrote this for the SASS wire back then.

I personally think it will be the ruler of the Classic Cowboy catagory shotguns. TNN has addressed several issues with this gun. The hammers are close for easier one-handed cocking. Even just out of the box it is do-able. The top latch lever even works under the cocked hammer to allow it to open the action. The large heavy hammers make it easy to reduce the hammer springs even more.
Because we don't shoot much at arial targets most of the other CAS SXS’s don`t have enough drop in the stock. They tend to shoot high for most people. The TTN has plenty drop for shooting at ground targets very similar to the originals.
It is a heavy built 3" chambered long forcing cone gun so felt recoil in minimal with this guns. Felt recoil in minimal with this gun.The next issue is there is no tang safety or hammer blocks to complicate the gun. That was the biggest problem with Liberty. All that extra junk makes it hard to tune. The internals of this gun are very simular to the original.
TNN and they tell me this gun has passed the drop test, but he also mentioned that they did a 12/20 test. They dropped a 20ga round in a chamber and then a 12ga round on top of it and then test fired the gun. He tells me that the barrel showed no damage but they did bust the stock.
Although this gun is made in China, it is the best work I have seen come out of China

Since they came out I have sold many of these guns. They have made some minor changes but they are still the most popular gun for the SASS Classic catagory.
The Guns of the Old West magazine featured one of my color-cased gun awhile back.

I have these available again.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:08 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote: As for the TTN/Cimarron/EMF imported copy of the 1878 Colt Hammered SXS, when they first came out Walt Johnson of TTN sent sampples to me to try out. This was about 2004 or so. I wrote this for the SASS wire back then.

I personally think it will be the ruler of the Classic Cowboy catagory shotguns. TNN has addressed several issues with this gun. The hammers are close for easier one-handed cocking. Even just out of the box it is do-able. The top latch lever even works under the cocked hammer to allow it to open the action. The large heavy hammers make it easy to reduce the hammer springs even more.
Because we don't shoot much at arial targets most of the other CAS SXS’s don`t have enough drop in the stock. They tend to shoot high for most people. The TTN has plenty drop for shooting at ground targets very similar to the originals.
It is a heavy built 3" chambered long forcing cone gun so felt recoil in minimal with this guns. Felt recoil in minimal with this gun.The next issue is there is no tang safety or hammer blocks to complicate the gun. That was the biggest problem with Liberty. All that extra junk makes it hard to tune. The internals of this gun are very simular to the original.
TNN and they tell me this gun has passed the drop test, but he also mentioned that they did a 12/20 test. They dropped a 20ga round in a chamber and then a 12ga round on top of it and then test fired the gun. He tells me that the barrel showed no damage but they did bust the stock.
Although this gun is made in China, it is the best work I have seen come out of China
Since they came out I have sold many of these guns. They have made some minor changes but they are still the most popular gun for the SASS Classic catagory.
The Guns of the Old West magazine featured one of my color-cased gun awhile back.

I have these available again.

Are they available in 26" with choke tubes?

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:56 am

Here you go Ji,

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/shotgu ... 8cg26.html

They list 3 different grades as well.

I can't find anything on Cimarron's web site or on Bud's gun shop about screw in chokes. According to Bud's it has cyl. chokes.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:24 am

IMO buy a cheap hammerless and shorten it, this is a Herculie's 12 i cut off and put a new bead on.
Any of the old Stevens were good guns and can be had fairly reasonably.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:49 pm

Rusty wrote:Here you go Ji,

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/shotgu ... 8cg26.html

They list 3 different grades as well.

I can't find anything on Cimarron's web site or on Bud's gun shop about screw in chokes. According to Bud's it has cyl. chokes.

Thanks Rusty, I was wondering is Steve did the choke tubes. From the Cimarron website I see this guns weighs in at almost 9 pounds!

That's getting a tad hefty for a upland bird gun.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:43 pm

Friends Call Me Ji wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote: As for the TTN/Cimarron/EMF imported copy of the 1878 Colt Hammered SXS, when they first came out Walt Johnson of TTN sent sampples to me to try out. This was about 2004 or so. I wrote this for the SASS wire back then.

I personally think it will be the ruler of the Classic Cowboy catagory shotguns. TNN has addressed several issues with this gun. The hammers are close for easier one-handed cocking. Even just out of the box it is do-able. The top latch lever even works under the cocked hammer to allow it to open the action. The large heavy hammers make it easy to reduce the hammer springs even more.
Because we don't shoot much at arial targets most of the other CAS SXS’s don`t have enough drop in the stock. They tend to shoot high for most people. The TTN has plenty drop for shooting at ground targets very similar to the originals.
It is a heavy built 3" chambered long forcing cone gun so felt recoil in minimal with this guns. Felt recoil in minimal with this gun.The next issue is there is no tang safety or hammer blocks to complicate the gun. That was the biggest problem with Liberty. All that extra junk makes it hard to tune. The internals of this gun are very simular to the original.
TNN and they tell me this gun has passed the drop test, but he also mentioned that they did a 12/20 test. They dropped a 20ga round in a chamber and then a 12ga round on top of it and then test fired the gun. He tells me that the barrel showed no damage but they did bust the stock.
Although this gun is made in China, it is the best work I have seen come out of China
Since they came out I have sold many of these guns. They have made some minor changes but they are still the most popular gun for the SASS Classic catagory.
The Guns of the Old West magazine featured one of my color-cased gun awhile back.

I have these available again.
Are they available in 26" with choke tubes?

Yes, I just sold a 26" that has the barrel set going to Briley for a set of screw-in chokes.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:03 pm

The TTN is a 12-gauge gun, built on a "10-gauge" frame.. Have compared mine to a friend's old, original 10-gauge, 1878 Colt.
Would love to get a TTN/Cimarron with 26" barrels....

barbarossa · Post by **barbarossa** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:17 pm

I have one of the Pedersoli La Bohemienne shotguns a beautiful gun.Pedersoli sells the Wyatt Earp short barrel coach gun version which is basically the same gun.