I have questions about loading black powder...

[mergus]

Hello all...The day after Christmas I bought myself a present. It is a 10 ga. Remington 1894 SxS with 32 inch Damascas barrels. Even though the gun is at least 115 years old, it is in very good condition. I would say it locks up as tight as my Citori, with NO wiggle in it. I've shot some low pressure loads (2 7/8" hulls) that I purchased from RST with no issues.

I bought some all brass 10 ga hulls from Track of the Wolf and the wads they reccomend for use in that hull. I would like to load some black powder shells and take them to the trap range to see how the old girl does.

While I have reloaded countless 12 ga smokeless loads with a Lee Load All, I have 0 expereince with black powder. In looking at the various web sites that sell tools to load black powder rifle/pistol loads, I see brass tubes of various lengths used to load BP into the rifle/pistol brass. Why is that, and more importantly, do I need one of those things to load my 10 ga hulls? Or can I just dip the black powder with my Lee Dipper set?

I also saw an aluminum funnel advertised as being useful as there won't be any static. Is that something I need?

Neither my Lyman #3 or #5 shotshell manual give black powder loads. Any ideas where I go to find loads?

And lastly, do you guys have any reccomendations for books or web sites I can read to learn about loading black powder?

Thanks in advance,

Mergus

[jeepnik]

You'll get lots of differing opinions, so I'll give mine. Hang it on the wall.

Damascus steel barrels are basically a spiral wound and welded, relatively mild steel barrel. Even though they can look great from the outside, and even inside to the naked eye, the use of BP over time, and its corrosive effects may have weakened the "welds". I'm sure you could have it tested (magnafluxed?) to ensure the integrity of the barrel, but I doubt it's worth it.

[guido4198]

Mergus,
The tubes you refer to are known as "Drop Tubes". When loading BP into rifle cases for example, in order to get a full charge into the space available...using a drop tube helps the powder to settle better in the case and more efficiently fill it. If you just take 70 gns of BP and try to dump it all at once into a 45/70 case, it doesn't fit. Drop tubes and compression dies are common tools when building BP rifle rounds.
Unlike smokeless powder, a BP round must have the bullet seated firmly against the powder, or filler wads if used. There can't be any open space inside the case.
Shotgun shells are loaded to a "dram equivalent" speed for the shot charge. For example, a standard 3 dram charge of black powder will push a standard 1 1/8 oz. shot charge at a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps. (One dram equals 27.34 grains). Any smokeless powder charge that also pushes a 1 1/8 oz. shot charge at a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps. is referred to as a "3 dram equivalent" charge.
As far as shooting the old shotgun....it's up to you. FWIW: The best solvent I've found, besides hot soapy water, for cleaning black powder firearms is Ballistol.
Hope this helps.

[Don McDowell]

Loading bp in rifle/handgun cartridges is a bit different than shotguns.
For loads look up the old 2 7/8 loads, then you'll need to convert drams to grains, to weigh your powder charge. 1f black would be a good place to start,as we don't have the "shotgun" powders of old available to us. Then you'll need a shot dipper.
Another way that might be a bit simpler would be to get one of the adjustable shotgun load dippers. Set the cup for your charge. Dip the powder and while holding the dipper a few inches above your funnel slowly pour the charge into your primed cases. Then seat the wads, then the shot then the overshot card.
When you're thru shooting it clean with wet patches pushed thru the bore, followed by dry and when the patches come out clean oil the bore. Deprime and wash those cases with soap and water, and then dry them. Then off to the tumbler to put the shine back on them.

Yet one more option would be the briley adapter tubes, which you could slip into the barrels and shoot like a 16 or 20 out of the gun.

[Hawkeye2]

You shouldn't have much trouble finding loading info for black powder in brass on the web but a lot of it will be for 12 gauge. The first thing you will need to do is to see if the brass is not too long for your chambers and cut it back if it is. If you can't do that a gunsmith can measure it for you and then you can cut the shells to suit. As you know shells are measured in the uncriimped state so You can leave the brass at that length and actually have more room in the shell. Loading a shell is simple and can be done with a few homemade tools. Carefully set the brass over a primer and use a dowel and light mallet to seat the primer. Starting the wads might be a little tricky but can be done without a guide and you can seat them with the same dowel/mallet. Some folks put a slight crimp on the shell to hold the overshot card in but that overworks the brass shortening it's life. These shells should last almost forever with care. Retain the card with hot glue, Elmer's, nail polish, or (traditional) water glass. I haven't seen any load data for a 10 but I doubt a square load using less than 80 grains of 2f (consider 1f too) would be effective and you probably will need more powder than that. Work up a load using equal volumes of powder and shot and then possibly refine it by increasing or decreasing the amount of shot. Everyone should own a set of those inexpensive Lee dippers specially if you are shooting black powder. I've been using the same cheap plastic funnel for loading black powder for 27 years and static has never been a problem. (Disclaimer: Do not handle BP under conditions of low humidity standing on carpet while wearing wool clothing and stroking your wife's cat!) I have a nice 10 gauge Parker I've been meaning to get working for years but I never seem to get to loading for it.

[mergus]

Guys, thank you all for your advice. Hawkeye, please help me understand that term "square load". Is that where the height of the powder in the shell is equal to the diameter of the powder in the shell?

Mergus

[Nath]

BP shot shells are easy!

An equal amount of powder to volume of shot is a good starting point. With some choke a little more powder can be added, say a 1/8oz volume of shot worth of extra powder.

Cylinder bored guns will sometimes go very spready on the pattern with more powder to shot as a general rule!

I add some home made candle wax and olive oil paste/lube betwixt wad and a card or two, helps keep the foul soft.

Always use a boiled kettle to wash the bores out and wet patches. The heat will dry the tubes, then the same lube mentioned above on a patch will coat the hot bores and melt and flow into any pit in the bores. No need to worry about corrosion then Using the boiling water will all so lift the leading out for easy peasy!

Most corrosion was caused from corrosive primers way back when anyway!

You don't need any drop tubes but a bit of a squeeze on the wad colume is good. Makes for a better burn etc.

Addictive pass time!!
N.

[Rusty]

A square load is when you load the same amount of powder as shot, volume for volume, not by weight.

[Don McDowell]

There is some 10 ga data in the last edition of the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook..
Also to throw square loads and make loading simple this is an example of the powder/shot dipper I spoke of in my earlier post.http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categorie ... T-DIPPER-D

[M. M. Wright]

mergus,
You've gotten some good advise but let me give you a little more. I had a 10 gauge Remington double that I loaded brass shells for. Sass shooter here. Got the brass shells, used the ffg Goex I load most everything else with and got wads from Circle Fly or John Walters, probably some from both. A piece of wooden dowel rod is all you need to load with besides de-priming and priming. I use water glass as in stop leak for radiators to seal the overshot card. 3 drams ffg and an equal volume of 7 1/2s. Good, low recoil load that knocks down just about anything.
Now, to the Damascus Remington. The barrels on mine were soft soldered strips of twisted straps of steel. Over the years, with proper cleaning the lead/tin solder had been eroded away, maybe by solvent intended for lead removal. Whatever the cause, one of the barrels developed a hole through to under the fore-arm. Every shot from that barrel blew the fore-arm off. Had to retire it. I would not use most gun cleaning solvents available today. Not good for Damascus.
Ballistol is GOOD stuff. Mixed 10:1 with water for cleaning, straight for lube and protection. Good for wood and leather too.

[Lefty Dude]

I clean my SXS 12 ga after using BP by, removing the barrel from the action. Place wine corks in the end of the barrels, Pour boiling water in the breach end and let it sit for 20 - 30 minutes. Remove the corks and watch the crud go down the drain. Dry with patches, then with a patch with ballistol wetted, run thru both bores, wipe off receiver face with the ballistol bore patch. Cleaning is complete.

I would suggest a Square load, equal powder to shot as a start.

My 12 ga. SASS/CAS load is a Lee powder dipper 3.1cc of Goex fff and 1 ounce of 7 1/2 shot.
I prefer fff because it burns cleaner and I can use less powder. The 3.1cc dipper is approx. 50-55 grains of Goex fff.

That big 10 ga. will require much more powder and I would use 2F BP or Pyrodex.

[mergus]

Guys, thank you all very much for the advice. I will go find a Lyman's Blackpowder loading book and buy it. I'm also going to buy the adj dipper from Track of the Wolf. I don't know how I missed that when I was on that site buying the hulls.....

I was on the phone today with "Mike" the technical advisor at Hodgdon. I asked him about using Pyrodex powder in brass hulls. He was very pessimisstic about the idea. He said that every time he ever used Pyrodex in brass shotgun shells, the brass swelled so much that no matter how much you resized it, after a firing or 2, that I wouldn't be able to chamber the hull. Have you guys ever expereinced this?

Mergus

PS. This is why this is such a great site....

[Griff]

Brass hulls are very thin. it doesn't take much pressure to swell them. The "square load" is THE way to go. And you're probably much better off with real BP than any of the subs. I've shot BP in paper, plastic and brass hulls. The brass are probably a bit more tedious to load, but well worth the effort! Just make sure you don't step on them as you shuck 'em!

[Don McDowell]

Pyrodex and the other subs operate at a much higher pressure than blackpowder.
If you don't have anyplace close by to get powder go to http://www.powderinc.com. They'll ship 5 lbs lots.
Your 10 bore is going to be eating that at a rate of 120 grs per shot, that's 58ish rounds per pound of powder.

[JB]

You'll get lots of differing opinions, so I'll give mine. Hang it on the wall.

Damascus steel barrels are basically a spiral wound and welded, relatively mild steel barrel. Even though they can look great from the outside, and even inside to the naked eye, the use of BP over time, and its corrosive effects may have weakened the "welds". I'm sure you could have it tested (magnafluxed?) to ensure the integrity of the barrel, but I doubt it's worth it.

I agree. Those old damascus barrels can look fine to the naked eye but still tear part with the first shot.

[mergus]

Thank you all for you comments, both pro and con. I'm excited to try this. There will be pics posted.....

Mergus

PS. powderinc.com is now bookmarked

[Nath]

Pyrodex has never been an issue in my brass hulls!

Don't worry about the dama' steel. Fluid barrels let go bigger when they do!

I was talking to a guy I know about his nice looking AYA he just got. Looked in good condition outside! Then I looked down the right tube! Pits! More like caves! I would of never bought it! I mean it was disgusting that some fool could let a gun get this bad in the first place but apart from that IMO the barrel was not safe!


As long as they look good go shoot, if they are wrong it will be obvious.

N.

[rusty gunns]

I've been shooting a Parker Bros 10 made in 1875 for cowboy shooting for two seasons. Sometime in it's life, someone cut it down to 22".
Like most 10's, it wasn't shot too much and was well cared for. Always have a gunsmith look at a domascus barreled gun before you light it up.

I tried the published load for the gun (109 gr black and 110 shot). I do not recommend it! I am not recoil sensitive, but that load rocked my brain!

I went to a stout 12 gauge load 80 grains of ffg and 90 gr of #6 shot. With those 22" cylinder boar barrels it nails those targets at 25 yards. Your 10 will sound like a howitzer when it goes off, but the recoil of a stout 12 gauge load in a 10 is not bad at all.

I used the brass for a time. You load them just as if they were a smooth bore rifle/shotgun.
Powder, card (a little tamp with a dowel or 10 gauge cleaning jag on a pistol rod), circle fly wad, shot, and an over card (the proper one for 10 gauge brass). I find simple bead of Duco cement around the card's edge and on the brass, those brass rounds in loops in my belt, opening down, holds the card and shot in just fine. Also store them opening up so the cards can't loosen.

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html is a great sight and has all the info you need.

Make sure the gun is safe to shoot. If it is, and you give it a try you'll love it. It's an incredible experience.