MAJOR Pressure Spike With 5744--Very Long

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:59 pm

Dudes,
I'm still shaking a bit. Just came back from the gunclub and had a near disaster. First, a little history.
1.) In 2001, I was at another gunclub and there was a guy there using A.A. 5744 in a Browning 1886 45-70. Booooommm!! The loading gate comes flying off and the action locked up tight. The gun held together but it did not look good. I know the guy and he is a very careful handloader but hey, we all make mistakes.

2.) In 2003, I am working up loads in an original 1886 45-90. I had shot this gun a lot over the years. In fact, I logged 1800+ rounds. The loads were warm, pushing a 300 grain bullet 1800 fps. Boooooooommm! The gun blows up in lots of pieces. I was sure of the quality of my loads but hey, **** happens and we all make mistakes. Accurate Arms tells me the load was 28,000 psi. Knowledgable people inspect the gun and they all come to the same conclusion---metal fatique from years of shooting.

3.) Fear and uncertainity begin to creap in my mind concerning the use of old guns. I adopt a new loading policy. Loads with smokeless are now factory equivalent to blackpowder in velocity in old '86's. In old guns but ones that were made for smokeless, the velocity only goes a little over blackpowder velocities. An example would be an original 1886 in 45-70 with a nickel steel barrel with 400 grain lead bullets going 1400-1600 fps.

4.) At the end of each loading session with these cartridges, I weigh each loaded round. It had better be within a couple of grains. Several years ago, I caught a problem with powder bridging while loading 35 Winchesters. yes, good for me.

5.) Last night, I load 50 rounds of 45-90 for shooting today in an original takedown 1886 Winchester with a nickel steel barrel. I weigh each loaded round. Everything is perfect. The load is 32 grains of 5744 and a 375 NEI gc. This load averages about 1400. (don't have my notes handy)

6.) I go to the gunclub today and shoot an old Marlin 38-55 and a newly relined 1894 in 32 Spl. Fire a total of 100 rounds out of each gun using 5744 and am pleased with the results. So I break out the 1886 for some steel shooting but over a chronograph, like I usually do. The first round measures 1423 over the chrono. The next round is waaaaaaayyyyyy loud and recoils fiercely. The chronograph says 2433! The action is locked up but looks OK. I pack and go home.

7.) I get in the gunroom and get a brass drift and smack the locking bars. The action opens up but the extractor rides over the rim of the empty, so I get out a heavy steel rod and knock out the empty from the muzzle. The case is still together but shows extremely heavy pressure signs. The base measures .007 over what the previous fired shell does.

8.) This time I know I was right and Accurate Arms is gonna get an earful from me tomorrow.----------------Sixgun

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:10 pm

Keep us posted on what they say!

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:14 pm

I'd like to hear more of what they have to say. I too have a pound of that stuff lying on my shelf for the 45-70. I have loaded some in the past for the 45-70 in the TC Contender.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:17 pm

Sixgun, sorry to hear this and hope the 86 will be OK.
What do you think happened?

big medicine · Post by **big medicine** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:41 pm

I think I would have quit using it the first time. Some powders tend to do that more than others. Check out Hodgdons site for the Trapdoor loads. Trail boss would be a very good choice in those old rifles.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:45 pm

OMG!!! You are SO lucky to have escaped without harm to you, or your rifle. i have never used 5744 and probably never will, either.

My standard hunting load for my LW .45-90 is 64 grains IMR 3031 and a 300 grain bullet, usually Barnes Original. Due to deteriorating lead allowances in these parts I will the all copper X bullets in the future.

Use IMR 3031, 4198 and 4895 in your gun for far more pleasing results.

3855 · Post by **3855** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:55 pm

Sent you a PM.

old06 · Post by **old06** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:25 pm

Keep us informed I use the same powder but plan to switch as of now

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:28 pm

XMP5744 IS THE MOST TRACTABLE PROPELLENT I EVER RAN THROUGH THE PRESSURE GUN, BAR NONE !!! YOU MIGHT BE LOOKING SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE MEANTIME.

GEOFF · Post by **GEOFF** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:40 pm

Terry Murbach,

What do you mean by "TRACTABLE"?????

Enlighten me a little more because this is so dang important!

Sixgun,

You surely know your stuff and I'm listening! I also have fired a few thousand rounds of XMP5744 in my Marlin 1881 and 1893, also my Trapdoor. I have always had HIGH REGARD for the powder, always buy it in 8lb kegs. This is pretty scarey, I sure don't want to have to go thru silhouette load developement again for these guns with another powder although like was said above Trailboss would be my second choice.

I sure know what you mean about shooting the old originals! There is nothing like it but geez to harm one of my old guns is tough to think about.

Keep us posted and I hope your 1886 is OKAY.

Geoff

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:41 pm

Funny thing guys. First, thanks for the responses, In all of the problems with 5744 that has occured to me and other guys, its always in a big bore 45-70 or 90. I shoot and load 5744 in THOUSANDS of rifle ammo yearly in 30-30, 30-40, 32-40, 38-55, 40-65, 32 Spl. 35 Winchester, others I can't remember and I have never gotten as much as a 100 fps spread in any of them BUT the 45-90 and my buddies 45-70. I have since heard from others who have experienced the same problem---------with 45-70's!

Accurate Arms had better have an answer for me or I'll plaster the volitility of their 5744 across the globe.--------Sixgun

DennisB · Post by **DennisB** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:42 pm

I use 5744 in 40-65, 45-70 and 50-90 so I'll be watching this with interest.

Dennis.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:47 pm

One thing that comes to mind. Did you actually see the round as it was chambering? Are you absolutely sure that the bullet was still in the crimp. Are you sure that the bullet didn't get pushed back into the case. A bullet that's pushed far enough back into the case will definitely pike pressure.

Montanan · Post by **Montanan** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:59 pm

I've used 5744 with no problems in 45-70 or 45-90. I have inspected all my cases and have seen no signs of presure spiking. You may have gotten a bad lot, post the lot number.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:29 pm

I'd like to point out that ScottT noticed such pressure spikes/anomalies using TrailBoss in either his .500 Linebaugh or the .45-70 (I think it was the latter), hence his move back to black. Might have had the same with the .500 but switched to another, more proven, powder.

This info would be VERY important to users of 5744 in say, the .45-75 WCF in a 1876 (new or vintage)...

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:42 pm

Glad you are okay. I use 5744 as well, and will be following this thread closely!

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:53 pm

Very glad you're alright also Sixgun. It seems like Mike Venturino uses this stuff almost exclusively for his smokeless loads and wonder if he might have any input. I hear he posts over on the Shiloh boards.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:03 pm

first I very glad you were not hurt.a rifle can be replaced but not fingers or eyes.

I have been using AA5744 for years in just about every cal I have.thats milsurp rifles to the 45/70.never had a problem.I just wonder if maybe they had a bad lot of the stuff???.do you have the lot # handy??.if so post it I want to check my powder against it.
again glad your ok.
pete

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:29 pm

5744 is one of my favorite powders for the old time BP cartridge rifles, as well as more modern stuff like .41 mag.
2433 on your chrono... yikes! I sure hope that your conversation with Accurate resolves this!

cas · Post by **cas** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:54 pm

I'll have to look for what my Pedersoli roller load was... about the same as yours, but with pufflon and a 530gr PP bullet.

runfiverun · Post by **runfiverun** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:05 pm

i just bought a bottle of their 1680
and it looks much different from their older 1680
like the coating is missing it was put far away from the other
1680.

i wonder if your powder was a bit deteriated?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:38 am

Glad to hear you're alright. I've been using 5744 for almost 20 years. Never had a problem in my .40-90SBN; 29 grs chrono's about 1575fps.

Let us know what Accurate sez.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:29 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:One thing that comes to mind. Did you actually see the round as it was chambering? Are you absolutely sure that the bullet was still in the crimp. Are you sure that the bullet didn't get pushed back into the case. A bullet that's pushed far enough back into the case will definitely pike pressure.

Steve, I understand what your saying. Yes, I did watch the round chamber, as I was loading them one at a time.------Jack This time I am sure. I do not have to second guess my actions. Well, maybe an alien switched boxes of ammo on me or my alter-ego Sixgun Jr. was out to get me

Probably what AA will try to bs me on.

--------Sixgun

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:58 am

I've had very scary pressure spikes in the 45-90 using IMR 3031 without any filler. I use 5744 in several cartridges and have used 5744 quite a bit in the 45-90. Extreme spread results have made me a big believer in toilet paper filler. Nevertheless, your (Sixgun's) experience is not simply a matter of filler or no filler ..... there seems to have been something seriously wrong that I cannot explain (unless it is a case of the detonation spoken of in legends.)

For interest's sake, here are some 45-90 results with and without toilet paper filler.

no filler
29.3 grains ... 1,328 fps .... E.S. = 50 fps (330 grain Gould bullet)
32.2 grains ... 1,494 fps .... E.S. = 99 fps (405 grain cast bullet)
32.2 grains ... 1,487 fps ... E.S. = 53 fps (318 grain cast bullet)

Toilet paper filler
30.5 grains ... 1,486 fps ... E.S. = 8 fps (330 grain Gould bullet)
30.5 grains ... 1,470 fps ... E.S. = 15 fps (330 grain Gould bullet)
29.3 grains ... 1,430 fps ... E.S. = 38 fps (330 grain Gould bullet)
32.2 grains ... 1,563 fps ... E.S. = 26 fps (330 grain Gould bullet)

You can see that the toilet paper filler raises the pressure slightly for the same powder weight, but reduces E.S. by half or more. In Sixgun's case, however, I have no explanation other than the wild speculation that it was the famous (mythical?) 'detonation'. If it was 'detonation' then I believe that filler prevents that based on it tendency to reduce E.S. and give more even, consistent burning.

My 45-90 pressure fluctuations with IMR 3031 and no filler
Here are the scary results I got with IMR 3031 and NO filler. Fortunately, I was using a chrono at the time.
50 grains IMR 3031 under a 330 grain Gould bullet (all loads wieghed to within plus or minus 0.02 grains. I noticed that some loads were quieter and other loads had a real load 'crack' to them.
E.S. = 541 fps
S.D. = 175 fps
Average Velocity = 1,590 fps
1,588 fps
1,529 fps
1,628 fps
1,450 fps
1,409 fps
1,202 fps
1,509 fps
1,699 fps
1,694 fps
1,716 fps
1,724 fps
1,651 fps
1,744 fps
1,549 fps
1,717 fps

Compare this to an IMR3031 load using toilet paper filler that gives the same average velocity
48 grains IMR 3031 under a 330 grain Gould bullet
E.S. = 70 fps
S.D. = 28 fps
Average Velocity = 1,599 fps

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:29 am

Difference here Kirk is your ES difference was a pressure dip more than a spike. Erratic to be sure but not dangerous. I had spiking velocities in the hundreds of fps with some 322 that had gone bad. Changed color on close inspection.

longarm4146 · Post by **longarm4146** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:39 am

Man, this is an important thread as so many of us have been using 5744 and trusting it. I've been using it for around 8 or 9 yrs in original trapdoors and my TD winchester (miroku) 86 and Uberti high wall, although I don't shoot near as warm of loads as some of you are using. I load most all my cast loads (405 RNFP) to about 1100-1200 fps, and safe for trapdoo, and easy on the shoulder.....Pls keep us posted as to additional info and possible causes.

PS am just starting to work up loads for an early original 86 in 40-65 (BP gun) as well as early 1894 in 38-55...I don't want to tear these guns up as they would be harder to replace than the EYE-talians ones of Japanese ones.

Bluehawk · Post by **Bluehawk** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:53 am

JACK First im glad your Ok and the gun is OK
I have to echo what everyone else is saying here and you alreaddy know A LOT OF US ARE USING IT AND USING A LOT OF IT
I even used it for a while in my 25/20 Marlin gave me the nicest groups of any thing I ever used in that gun Stopped using it only due to the unburnt powder I get in every load in every gun Even 45/70 loads wiht magnum primers and long barrels give my unburnt kernels inthe barrel.
thas my ony guess is it possible that you ahd shot a bunch of rounds and there may have beensome unburned or heavy residue in the chamber from previous rounds, that may have cuased pressure problems in chamber . I have noticed a few itmes in different guns rounds sticking going in after firing a lot and have then found resideue or powder kernels built up inthe chamber or throat Just a thought
Glad your fine Dan

crs · Post by **crs** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:52 am

Bluehawk - Interesting theory, and it will be interesting to learn the answer to your question.

KirkD - WRT filler, I am new to the use of 5744 in the .45-90, but am following the advice of the AA ballisticians NOT to use filler with XMP-5744(as repeated by Mike Venturino in his 1886 .45-90 article of November 2001 in Shooting Times) and in the AA loading manual.
My current loads are mid range with 325 Beartooth cast, and I will watch this thread carefully before moving on up the velocity range with 5744.

It is interesting that AA recommended loads for the .458 Win Mag are all 5744.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:07 pm

Old Savage wrote:Difference here Kirk is your ES difference was a pressure dip more than a spike. Erratic to be sure but not dangerous. I had spiking velocities in the hundreds of fps with some 322 that had gone bad. Changed color on close inspection.

The one shot at 1,202 fps does increase the E.S., but even we we remove that from the data, I still get an E.S. of about 340 fps as opposed to 70 fps with toilet paper filler. The average velocity should be in the high 1,500's, but I had some in the 1,700's that definitely got my attention with the load 'crack' kind of report. Still, this is not as bad as what Sixgun experienced, although 5744 is a faster powder and there would be more empty space in the case for a given velocity, compared to IMR 3031.

CRS, I don't know why some say not to use filler with 5744, unless it is for the same reasons they say not to use filler in any cartridge. My sense of it is that one does not need to use filler, since 5744 is less sensitive to powder position in the case during firing. Nevertheless, I've used 5744 for several years now, with and without toilet paper filler, and the TP filler always improves E.S. and burning consistency. Of course, I'm using low to moderate loads in straightwalled cases. I do not recommend filler with hot loads or with bottle neck cases.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:37 pm

Yes this is a very good post,important to most all of us.I have used 5744 in my 45-70 with good results and have had real good results with it and cast bullts for my '92 32-20. Reckon I'll wait a little now and see how this turns out.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:26 pm

5744 was developed specifically for use large BP cases, as I recall. I have used it a lot in the 45-70 and have never had anything untoward occur with it.

Blackhawk's observation about unburned powder is an interesting idea. One of the reasons I recently went to other powders for the 45-70 and 45-60 is the unburned 5744 which makes chambering some rounds difficult.

Glad your ok, Sixgun.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:03 pm

Kirk, thanks for pointing that out. I don't use fillers but it is something to consider. I usually use 2400 for reduced loads.

Checked my Marlin 45-70 records on H322 that went bad. 1557 to 2054 fps was the spread on a load that Hodgdon thinks should produce 1694 fps.

This same powder had performed very consistently 4 years earlier in a Marlin 444.

cowboykell · Post by **cowboykell** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:43 pm

Because of the "unburnt" kernels or residue from AA 5744, I use Trail Boss in 45-75, 45-60, and 56-50 Spencer among others with great results. I have quit using 5744 and have replaced it with Trail Boss.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:46 pm

Here's another idea (not mine, but I'll put it out here for discussion). From the data I posted above, one can see that toilet paper filler will increase the velocity by about 100 fps for the same amount of 5744 powder. It's been a while since I weighted the toilet paper, but it does not weigh much, it just fills up the case, but does compress upon ignition. In Sixgun's case, the velocity was about 1,000 fps higher than normal. Could it be possible that some tumbling media got trapped in the case, partially filling it, but not so much that a full charge of powder couldn't be dropped into it, say, 10 times the compressed volume of a sheet of toilet paper to give an extra 1,000 fps?

Sixgun, you weighed the finished cartridges. How much tumbling media could you have inside the case and it still be within your tolerances? I think this is a bit of a long shot but worth a look.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:52 pm

Bluehawk wrote:JACK First im glad your Ok and the gun is OK
I have to echo what everyone else is saying here and you alreaddy know A LOT OF US ARE USING IT AND USING A LOT OF IT
I even used it for a while in my 25/20 Marlin gave me the nicest groups of any thing I ever used in that gun Stopped using it only due to the unburnt powder I get in every load in every gun Even 45/70 loads wiht magnum primers and long barrels give my unburnt kernels inthe barrel.
thas my ony guess is it possible that you ahd shot a bunch of rounds and there may have beensome unburned or heavy residue in the chamber from previous rounds, that may have cuased pressure problems in chamber . I have noticed a few itmes in different guns rounds sticking going in after firing a lot and have then found resideue or powder kernels built up inthe chamber or throat.

Danny,
No, barrel was clean. I only fired one round before the suspect round.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:56 pm

KirkD wrote:Here's another idea (not mine, but I'll put it out here for discussion). From the data I posted above, one can see that toilet paper filler will increase the velocity by about 100 fps for the same amount of 5744 powder. It's been a while since I weighted the toilet paper, but it does not weigh much, it just fills up the case, but does compress upon ignition. In Sixgun's case, the velocity was about 1,000 fps higher than normal. Could it be possible that some tumbling media got trapped in the case, partially filling it, but not so much that a full charge of powder couldn't be dropped into it, say, 10 times the compressed volume of a sheet of toilet paper to give an extra 1,000 fps?

Sixgun, you weighed the finished cartridges. How much tumbling media could you have inside the case and it still be within your tolerances? I think this is a bit of a long shot but worth a look.

Kirk,
Excellent thought. My tolerences are + or - 3 grains. But after thinking about your idea, its a no-go as I tumble my cases with the old primers in. I would have noticed when I was resizing/knocking out old primer.--------------------Sixgun

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:24 pm

Wondering if there may have been excess case lube on that cartridge.
Also looking at a couple of pressure tested data sources , that 32 gr load was a tad light, possible detonation? Was there any filler used?

One thing about it the, warning that's always present on various BPCR forums certainly rings true here, "One should never ever use smokeless in the large capactiy cartridges designed for black powder".