A good Load for my 1897 Colt 73

[rusty gunns]

Every once in a while we get to have a dream come true. One of mine was to get my hands on an original 1st Gen Colt to go with my original Winchester 73, my 92 (first year) and my 89 Marlin. Now, I didn't quite find it under my pillow. I shopped for months before I found a really good one that I could afford.

In 44 cf (44-40), and not the black powder frame, the Sn puts it at 1897. It has all 4 clicks and locks up tighter than my jaw when I think about politicians. I slugged the cylinder and all 6 come out at .425. The refiling is about a 9 (I get excited just typing that!).

Now here is where I need some of the expertise that abounds here on this list.

I have plenty of lead .427's to go around. I like unique a lot and use it in all my pistol caliber originals, but I also have 231, 5744, 2400 and Trail Boss. I'm not fond of trail boss in old guns. The gun is in excellent shape for a shooter, so I was thinking about starting with about 6 to 6.5 gr of unique. 7 gr is still way under 13,000.

Any ideas or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[M. M. Wright]

Look on the front left of the trigger guard, way up at the top. There should be a triangle with V P stamped in it. Stands for "Verified Proof" and means it can be used with smokeless. 1897 puts it in question as serial no. 192,000 and above should have the VP, but not all do. If it's there your load suggestion sounds fine. If not, stick to black powder. Find a good 200 grain cast bullet that carries a lot of lube and use that great barrel.

How strong is the roll mark? Colt Frontier Six Shooter No other caliber designation on it.

You're into my favorite caliber and gun. I have several in 44-40 but they like ffg Goex.

Pictures man, we need pictures!

[Sixgun]

Pictures man, we need pictures!

Yea! Pics dude.............now!

As for the loading, I will agree with the 6-7 gr. Unique, even if is a bp gun. Common sense prevails here............as long as there is no rust pitting..............double check your charges...........don't size bullets larger than cylinder throats...........-------------6

[rusty gunns]

Look on the front left of the trigger guard, way up at the top. There should be a triangle with V P stamped in it. Stands for "Verified Proof" and means it can be used with smokeless. 1897 puts it in question as serial no. 192,000 and above should have the VP, but not all do. If it's there your load suggestion sounds fine. If not, stick to black powder. Find a good 200 grain cast bullet that carries a lot of lube and use that great barrel.

How strong is the roll mark? Colt Frontier Six Shooter No other caliber designation on it.

You're into my favorite caliber and gun. I have several in 44-40 but they like ffg Goex.

Pictures man, we need pictures!

Thanks! M.M. Wright,

You may have saved me a heartache. The SN on this Darlin is 1744XX There is no VP stamped on the trigger guard.

The 200 gr .427's I have are alox lubed. I have a few hundred 200 gr Spg's but they're .428

True Cast http://www.tru-cast.com/product_info.ph ... 404905309f has a .427 Spg 200 gr bullet.

They're a bit on the pricy side at 63 bucks for 500, but I'll have to "Bite the Bullet" and buy them.

The roll mark on the barrel is very clear (About an as is the stamping on the left side of the frame.

I will get some pictures out as soon as I can. Thanks!

[rusty gunns]

I finally took the pictures.

I can't seem to change the order of them, but they're all here at:

http://s1337.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... 897%20colt

I couldn't get a decent picture of the rifling. my camera was being a Sh*t.

[pwl44m]

I was under the assumption that any Colt with the push button to release the cyl pin was smokeles frames. Do I err in My assumption ?
I would like to know so as to avoid calamity in My own Colt - 1902.
Perry

[M. M. Wright]

Man that's nice! Good strong markings and appears un-messed with. Nice screw heads even. That oughta shoot real good. You can shoot crayon lubed bullets with black powder if you put a grease cookie under them. I melt a couple of toilet waxes and add about 1/2 cup olive oil. Then pour this out in a baking pan that is lined with waxed paper and allow to cool. If the thickness is a little too thick you can roll it out with another sheet of wax paper on top. Use the wife's rolling pin but don't tell her as she might use it on you. I like about 1/8th to 3/16 inch thick. Load the powder, push in a 1/8th wad and then just use the cartridge to cut a cookie from the sheet before loading the bullet. Not as much trouble as it sounds here. Wads from Circle Fly or John Walters.

I use bullets sized .429 and just don't worry about it. Course mine are 20:1 lead/tin so are kinda soft. With this size bullet though the chambers are too tight to let you use Remington brass. Winchester is ok and so is Starline. I use a Lee collet type factory crimp die. I load on a Dillon 550 and even use their powder measure with a length of exhaust pipe for the powder hopper. I use ffg Goex and with the wad and grease cookie it is a slightly softer shooting load. Lots of fire and smoke though. Very satisfying!

[Lefty Dude]

A nice target load that is accurate that I use for CAS/SASS is 5.4 gr. of Unique with a FNRP 200 gr. lead bullet. This shoots sweet in my Colt SAA 44WCF's.

For a little more gidda-up try 6.7 gr. of unique.

Don't push the Ol'girl to hard now, BTW nice piece.

[rusty gunns]

the powder, push in a 1/8th wad and then just use the cartridge to cut a cookie from the sheet before loading the bullet. Not as much trouble as it sounds here. Wads from Circle Fly or John Walters.

I use bullets sized .429 and just don't worry about it. Course mine are 20:1 lead/tin so are kinda soft. With this size bullet though the chambers are too tight to let you use Remington brass. Winchester is ok and so is Starline. I use a Lee collet type factory crimp die. I load on a Dillon 550 and even use their powder measure with a length of exhaust pipe for the powder hopper. I use ffg Goex and with the wad and grease cookie it is a slightly softer shooting load. Lots of fire and smoke though. Very satisfying!

Thanks for your kind words and great input.

I use a Hornady progressive Lock N Load. Since more than a few of my guns are BP shooters, I have the black powder powder measure as well as the standard. I use Starline brass and the lee collet crimp die as well. I can get a full 35 gr of ffg in the starlight without having to use tubes. Bp simply loves a little compression.

I took a few random rounds from my loaded ammo. The .428's and .429's chambered just fine, so my dies are set just right for this pistol. I also have a hundred or so lubed circle fly wads I use under the ball for my cap and ball guns. So, if need be, I can put them over about 25 or so grains of ffg or fffg.

I found another vendor who sells Spg 44-40's for 43 bucks per 500:
https://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/ ... b6ada0861f

So by next week, I'll have a report on how this gun shoots.

[gak]

I was under the assumption that any Colt with the push button to release the cyl pin was smokeles frames. Do I err in My assumption ?
I would like to know so as to avoid calamity in My own Colt - 1902.
Perry

My apologies if already answered - I did not see. It's true that cross pin design has generically become known as the "smokeless frame" but the new retention system occurred long before actual certification/change over. It's one of those "all smokeless are crosspin, but not all crosspin are smokeless" things.
I believe ca 1900 is generally the recognized "after..." date for smokeless certification for most of not all, even if a few occurred before then.

[BigMuddy]

Colt did not guarantee the SAA for smokeless powder until 1900. The serial numbers in 1900 started with 192,000. The actual steel was improved and changed before that time, but again Colt did not guarantee them until after serial number 192,000. The steel changed sometime in 1896 I "think" but am not sure. (My 1st gen gun is #192087)

The statement that all "smokeless" guns have cross pins, but all cross pin guns are not smokeless is very true.

SO much to this with so much risk. Not only potential injury, but destroying a 1st get Colt would be pretty bad too.
It is the cylinder that is the weak link. Remember the Colt that Elmer Keith had made into his famous #5 44 Special was a black powder Colt...with a smokeless powder cylinder.

All that said, with careful and conservative loading...smokeless can be used in a '97 SAA. The pressure curve is much different between black and smokeless, but I use 5.0 Titegroup in a BP era '73 Winchester. The pressure is quite a bit below BP loads and shoots VERY well. I don't have any pre 1900 Colts.

Dan

[pwl44m]

Thx Gak & BigMuddy, didn't want to Hijack this thread but it Clears the water (no pun intended) as to the OP. See He assumed He had a smokeless frame when actually He didn't. That is what I like about this forum, Somebody "Knows". Now if I don't forget I will have that info tucked in the corner of My tiny little brain.
Perry

[rusty gunns]

In 44 cf (44-40), and not the black powder frame, the Sn puts it at 1897. It has all 4 clicks and locks up tighter than my jaw when I think about politicians. I slugged the cylinder and all 6 come out at .425. The refiling is about a 9 (I get excited just typing that!).

Now here is where I need some of the expertise that abounds here on this list.

Thx Gak & BigMuddy, didn't want to Hijack this thread but it Clears the water (no pun intended) as to the OP. See He assumed He had a smokeless frame when actually He didn't. That is what I like about this forum, Somebody "Knows". Now if I don't forget I will have that info tucked in the corner of My tiny little brain.
Perry

I couldn't agree with Perry (pwl44m) more about clearing the water. I don't see this thread as having been hijacked at all. I got exactly what I asked for. Opinions, experiences and knowledge from the pool of members.

As I mentioned in my first post. "This is not a black powder frame". I didn't say it wasn't a black powder gun. Of course, because of the frame design, I thought it might be very well be. By 97 there were a lot of smokeless guns out there. But when I picked this gun up, the first thing I noticed was that it was heavy. The steal was not as good (for the want of a term) as 20th century guns. So I just wasn't sure.

So, of course, I came to this forum to glean some of the expertise that abounds here on this list.

It just may have saved me a whole lot of grief. I cant imagine wanting one of these Colts for so long, then promptly destroying it with too much pressure or a too large, or too hard slug. All because of lack of knowledge.

I may try 6 and a half gr of unique in time. The light pressures under a cowboy (soft lead) .427 slug may be just fine. But I need to read up on it more.

Like my dad used to say:
"There's nothing wrong with being ignorant. But after I teach you, and you screw it up, now you're just stupid."

Keep it coming, my friends.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Colt first introduced the transverse cylinder base pin lock as a target model feature in 1892. It was phased in as a standard feature on all models in 1896. As has already been mentioned, Colt did not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless until 1900. Your SN puts yours as having been made in 1897. No doubt yours has had some Smokeless run through it over the years, but if it was mine, I wouldn't.

My standard load for 44-40 is 2.2CC of FFg under a 200 grain Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet lubed with SPG and sized to .428. The actual grain weight of the powder will vary, as not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. Bottom line is, pour in enough BP so that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder by between 1/16" - 1/8".

If I was to put Smokeless through it, which I would not, my standard Smokeless 44-40 load is 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet. Even with a light Smokeless load, even with a Cowboy load, you will still develop a sharper pressure curve than with BP, and it is the sharp curve that can shock and shatter the older steel.