Hard Scrabble Shooting
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Hard Scrabble Shooting
There seems to be plenty of Red Dot, Green Dot and a few other shotgun powders out there. I think I might lay in a supply. There are some light loads for rifles that can be made using the "wrong" powder....Pistol cartridges can usually be loaded with a shotgun powder of some sort. 45-70 and .444 can shoot almost anything in the BlueDot, Red/Green Dot, 2400 range. Might not hurt to be checking this out for future.
I know this is the Third Rail of Loading, but, I wonder if there are any smokeless powders that would be useful in a pinch in the MLs, and not blow up?? My Ruger Old Army comes to mind...they are hell for stout.
I know this is the Third Rail of Loading, but, I wonder if there are any smokeless powders that would be useful in a pinch in the MLs, and not blow up?? My Ruger Old Army comes to mind...they are hell for stout.
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Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
That's how I learned to reload was by using Unique and Red Dot in the 30/30. Shot "lots" of squirrels with a Lee soupcan and 4grs of RD. Loaded up some 45/70 loads with HS7 and Unique. They are pushing 300 and 350gr bullets at 1100fps. Out of a 5# carbine they don't feel light or wrong. I also read an article about a guy that used 5744 in his muzzleloader, a Hawken type, but cant find it.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
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250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
During the 2008 election cycle I got caught short on Unique. Went to using Green Dot in 41 mag, 45 colt, and 44-40. For mid range loads it works fine (no better than Unique but fine) and it seems to be passed by in the "panic grabs". I haven't bought any more since I got hold of more Unique but there's still a pound or two in the cabinet if the need arises.
Eric
Eric
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Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
RedDot is one of my standby powders. As is RL-7 and AA-5744. While RL-7 and AA5744 are quite versatile, they seem to have a niche in the .38-55 based cartridges and big BP era cartridges respectively. RedDot is often overlooked by both shotgunners and handgunners, some of whom seem to get on a "powder-of-the-month" kick, and will only use that newest, latest, greatest thing the writers all got samples of to test!
I'm not very imaginative when it comes to my reloading. I tend not to try loads offered to me without consulting with the reloading manuals and verifying the specific components.
I'm not very imaginative when it comes to my reloading. I tend not to try loads offered to me without consulting with the reloading manuals and verifying the specific components.
Griff,
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SASS/CMSA #93
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
A plug for AmmoGuide.com is that you can pull up a powder and your favorite cartridges, and see what is possible, a bit more easily than the 'search' function on most sites.
As far as using 'smokeless' for 'black' - Savage's ML-10 support section on their website lists 'factory recommended' loads using IMR-5744, SR-4759, and I think IMR-4227 plus one of the Vitahoever powders. Granted, they say NOT to use them in other muzzleloaders, but other threads on this forum have pretty well documented that the pressure curves can be similar or even more gentle when properly loaded. I doubt that ML-10 is hugely different than other quality modern-steel muzzleloaders, other than the fact that they spent extra money proof-testing them with smokeless, dealing with ATF regulations, paying lawyers, and tucking a percentage of each purchase away to deal with the inevitable lawsuits.
As far as using 'smokeless' for 'black' - Savage's ML-10 support section on their website lists 'factory recommended' loads using IMR-5744, SR-4759, and I think IMR-4227 plus one of the Vitahoever powders. Granted, they say NOT to use them in other muzzleloaders, but other threads on this forum have pretty well documented that the pressure curves can be similar or even more gentle when properly loaded. I doubt that ML-10 is hugely different than other quality modern-steel muzzleloaders, other than the fact that they spent extra money proof-testing them with smokeless, dealing with ATF regulations, paying lawyers, and tucking a percentage of each purchase away to deal with the inevitable lawsuits.
Last edited by AJMD429 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
I mostly use Red Dot in the .45ACP but it works well in most pistol cartridges and cast bullets.
Many rifle cartridges are happy with it and lead bullets also.
Don`t overlook 700X, 800X ,Green Dot, There is data for all these powders using cast bullets
in a great variety of calibers.
Many rifle cartridges are happy with it and lead bullets also.
Don`t overlook 700X, 800X ,Green Dot, There is data for all these powders using cast bullets
in a great variety of calibers.
- 44-40 Willy
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Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
I've had very good success with 700X in low velocity cast loads for my 357 rifles. Minute of squirrel head accuracy.
44-40 Winchester. Whacking varmits and putting meat on the table since 1873.
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Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
Ancient reloading notes from 40 years ago show: 45 cal Hawken, 225 Conical bullet, 6 grains FFFG + 45 grains of 3031 pretty much duplicated my full charge black powder load. I couldn't get the smokeless to fire reliably without the little bit of FFFG to get things going. Also used 50 grains of 4064 ahead of the 6 grains black for the same velocity (approx 1600 fps).BlaineG wrote:I wonder if there are any smokeless powders that would be useful in a pinch in the MLs, and not blow up??
I'm sure you are not supposed to use such loads, but if it comes to a real pinch and there is no other way --- I shot quite a bit of this and powder fouling was never any problem, as you might suspect. And a pound of black goes a looong ways.
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is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
I laid up some of it Blaine for exactly the reason you're pointing out - it's still widely available!
Green Dot load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=5
Red Dot load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=4
Blue Dot load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... owderid=10
Other shotgun powders from Alliant that have pistol load data provided:
American Select load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=2
Herco load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=6
And lastly, Alliant has a new black powder replacement out called Black MZ that is, I suspect, intended to go head to head with Blackhorn 209 because they advertise that it is "moisture resistant and virtually non-corrosive". That part sounds like Blackhorn, but I do not see anything about it requiring 209 primers which is some really good news for me and my cap and ball revolvers. (I intend to try some ASAP!) I just wanted to point out, however, that both Black MZ and Blackhorn 209 are perfectly acceptable for metallic cartridges as well. Blackhorn has load data available at their site and Alliant simply recommends Black MZ as a volumetric substitute for black powder. Blackhorn 209 is still in all the shops in Tucson, so I laid up some of that as well because I can use it in pistols as well as .45-70 if needed.
I have no idea how bad this is going to get, but I suspect it's a passing thing because the factories are all cranking this stuff out as fast as they can. Eventually they WILL catch up...I think.
Green Dot load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=5
Red Dot load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=4
Blue Dot load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... owderid=10
Other shotgun powders from Alliant that have pistol load data provided:
American Select load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=2
Herco load data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... powderid=6
And lastly, Alliant has a new black powder replacement out called Black MZ that is, I suspect, intended to go head to head with Blackhorn 209 because they advertise that it is "moisture resistant and virtually non-corrosive". That part sounds like Blackhorn, but I do not see anything about it requiring 209 primers which is some really good news for me and my cap and ball revolvers. (I intend to try some ASAP!) I just wanted to point out, however, that both Black MZ and Blackhorn 209 are perfectly acceptable for metallic cartridges as well. Blackhorn has load data available at their site and Alliant simply recommends Black MZ as a volumetric substitute for black powder. Blackhorn 209 is still in all the shops in Tucson, so I laid up some of that as well because I can use it in pistols as well as .45-70 if needed.
I have no idea how bad this is going to get, but I suspect it's a passing thing because the factories are all cranking this stuff out as fast as they can. Eventually they WILL catch up...I think.
Cheers,
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Re: Hard Scrabble Shooting
I discovered RedDot in 2008 when Universal, Unique, AA #5 & AA#9 weren't on the shelves. RedDot is all I use now for .45C & .40 S &W handgun loads. I get 1000+ loads from a pound. Even tried some low velocity rifle loads. Necessity is the mother of invention.