Opinions on short magnums?

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:07 pm

There's a good chance I'll be doing some deer hunting this fall in Northeastern Vermont which has a lot of uninterupted open land. Some terrain is thick, up close and personal brush hunting land, but there are clearings from logging ops scattered throughout that could provide 200+ yard shots. I'm looking for a fast handling rifle that can handle both scenarios. There is also the off chance that I'll get a moose tag one of these years, so I'd like a medium bore chambering.

So, I'm making life difficult:

1. a short, fast handling rifle

2. Medium bore

3. Not a bolt

The BLR is a possibility since they chamber it in both .358 win and .325 winchester whizz bang marketing machine magnum. It would be .358 win hands down, but I'm not sure anyone still manufactures ammo for it. I reload, but I also like to have a commercially loaded option. The ballistics of the .325 are impressive, but on principal, I'm hesitant to buy into the hype and there is also the chance it will be a cartridge that starts as a fad and then dies. Also, ammo is incredibly expensive for it ($50-$60) a box

Any ideas or opinions?

jengel · Post by **jengel** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:23 pm

I am not a fan on the Short Mag cartidges so my opinions will reflect that. In my opinion, if you are wanting a 250yd or less rifle, short action, non bolt medium bore gun, get a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70. Yeah, I know that it is not a "short action" but it is not a bolt gun and it is very handy. It depends on the loading but you can shoot 300gr bonded bullets for longer range or the big thumpers for 150yds or less.

You might also think about a Marlin in .35 Rem. That would be good too.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:27 pm

Sorry, Only rimmed cartrudges are spoken here

I'm with Jengel-------------Sixgun p.s My son killed an elk last fall with a 45-70 levergun at a lazered 232 yards.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:06 pm

I just got rid of my BLR 300 WSM today. There was nothing pleasurable about shooting it. It is too light of a gun for magnums. Kicks like a mule. Only shot 1 box of shells throught it. I still have a BLR in 308 , which is pleasure to shoot and is my favorite deer rifle. Also the barrel is probably longer on the 325 than the 358. My 308 has a 20 inch barrel and handles like a 30-30 carbine.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:06 pm

jengel wrote:I am not a fan on the Short Mag cartidges so my opinions will reflect that. In my opinion, if you are wanting a 250yd or less rifle, short action, non bolt medium bore gun, get a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70. Yeah, I know that it is not a "short action" but it is not a bolt gun and it is very handy. It depends on the loading but you can shoot 300gr bonded bullets for longer range or the big thumpers for 140yds or less.

You might also think about a Marlin in .35 Rem. That would be good too.

Except short mags are long range cartridges, not medium range. The 300SM's reproduce 300WinMag performance in a shorter action and in a more efficient cartridge, meaning it uses less powder to do the same job. The same can be said for the .243/.223 SM's. They are an improvement. How much is subjective, but they are a step in the right direction, and in 20 years what is learned from these advances will certainly be more than subjective.

Does a 300SM do anything a 300WM wont do? No, unless your trying to do something like get 300WM performance from a .308 length action, such as an AR10. Then the 300WM definately will not work.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:29 pm

I would likely go on ammo availability.

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:38 pm

If I were you, I would keep an eye out for a Winchester Model 88 in either .308 or .284. Or, I'd just take my .270 Model 70.

FYI: Winchester does still make .358 ammo.

I don't care for BLRs of any sort, sorry to say. Same goes for anything with the word "Magnum" attached if it's not preceded by "H&H".

Good luck, and let us know what you wind up with.

Scott

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:43 pm

You know you came to the right place when the 45-70 qualifies as Medium Bore.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:55 pm

If there was anything on this continent that a Blr chambered in 308 , loaded with 150-180 gr bullets won't take down with one maybe 2 well placed shots within 300 yds . I don't want anything to do with that critter.

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:09 pm

308 Marlin Express would work seems to me. Or how about the good old 300 Savage M99? I just can't get excited about the short mags, sorry.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:14 pm

.308Win the original short mag.
I hear it makes a real good 800 yard sniper round to.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:33 pm

Maybe a Win 95 in .30-06?

I don't know for sure but I would think that most of those WSM's would have a pretty short barrel life.

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:38 pm

hard to beat the blr .308wcf. good for all north american and most african game. cheap mil surplus,custom loaded ammo that meets the great .30-06 springfield, can find ammo everywhere. blr dimensionally close to the win 94. can mount top scope. perfect for brush and those occasional 300yd shots.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:45 pm

In a few years the short mags will be gone, and brass will be hard to get. We didn't need them. We still dont.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:04 pm

Swampman wrote:In a few years the short mags will be gone, and brass will be hard to get. We didn't need them. We still dont.

How many years, and how much would you like to wager on that Swamp?

I'm willing to bet they'll still be around in 10 years, after that something better will come along.

Actually, we did need them. New chamberings stimulate gun sales, and ammunition manufacturers, which stimulates our favorite industry, gun making. Hell, a .54 caliber musket still works, why do we need that fancy brass ca'tridge? Just a waste of good brass, when any real man can pour his own powder right in that there barrel his ownself.

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:33 pm

My gunsmith friend sneers at short mags in general, and scoffs "how anyone managed to get deer before they had short mags!" He then proceeds to bring home big deer, almost every year, in Northern Vermont with his .243. My brother bought a 270 A-bolt short mag a couple of years ago, found it too slow to handle in a Northeast Vt swamp and missed a chance at a big buck. He's been pretty happy since he acquired a much used, but in good shape, Marlin half-magazine 336 in 35 Remington. I've never owned a short mag of any kind and do not feel in any way undergunned with a 30-30, 45-70, or 7mm-08.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:35 pm

Jason_W wrote:There's a good chance I'll be doing some deer hunting this fall in Northeastern Vermont which has a lot of uninterupted open land. Some terrain is thick, up close and personal brush hunting land, but there are clearings from logging ops scattered throughout that could provide 200+ yard shots. I'm looking for a fast handling rifle that can handle both scenarios. There is also the off chance that I'll get a moose tag one of these years, so I'd like a medium bore chambering.

So, I'm making life difficult:

1. a short, fast handling rifle

2. Medium bore

3. Not a bolt

The BLR is a possibility since they chamber it in both .358 win and .325 winchester whizz bang marketing machine magnum. It would be .358 win hands down, but I'm not sure anyone still manufactures ammo for it. I reload, but I also like to have a commercially loaded option. The ballistics of the .325 are impressive, but on principal, I'm hesitant to buy into the hype and there is also the chance it will be a cartridge that starts as a fad and then dies. Also, ammo is incredibly expensive for it ($50-$60) a box

Any ideas or opinions?

If you don't own any centerfire rifles now, then I recomend buying a BLR in .308 Win, and mount a 2x7 Leupold scope in medium hight mounts, and take it to gunsmith and shorten the length of pull about 1/2 inch and maybe have them do a trigger job on it. And you will have a rifle capable of doing anything you are capable of doing with a centerfire rifle under field conditions, for the lower 48 including moose.

And later add another gun, like maybe a 45/70 leveraction, and put a receiver sight on it. Of course there are several other options, like 358 Win, 444 Marlin, 348 Winchester, etc for a medium bore with a little more knockdown, but if you can't justify owning a second rifle, no worries, the .308 will do it all, even moose. And ammo is easy to find, easy to handload for, and about as cheap to shoot as any centerfire rifle round.

And frankly there isn't an animal from a groundhog to moose that I can't take cleanly with my .308 win using Factory Factory 180gr silvertips, from 10yds to 300yds, in a good shooting BLR with a 2x7 Scope.

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:51 pm

I like my 356 mod 94 and it fills all your needs except for easy to find ammo. If you reload, not a problem. I had an early BLR it shot well but I found ejection of empties some times an issue. Newer models seem to have a larger opening. just my .02

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:22 pm

An answer is search of a question...

But that really wasn't your question at all, was it?

What you want is the BLR or 99 in .358 Winchester or the BLR in the good old .30-06. That'll do and not likely (except for a 99

) hurt your pocketbook too much if you shop for it.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:11 pm

JReed wrote:.308Win the original short mag.
I hear it makes a real good 800 yard sniper round to.

+1.

Quinn

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:20 pm

Wellhave you ever thought about a Remington pump in .35 Whelen. You can get it in a short barrel, 18 inches, I think, and it will cover all situations with either a peep sight or a low powered scope!!!! Art

CEMENTHEAD · Post by **CEMENTHEAD** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:23 pm

I'm with Hobie on this one, Model 99 in 358 Win or 308 win. Unless of course you go with my fave the Guide gun in 45/70. Just my .02$.
Thanks, Tom

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:29 pm

pharmseller wrote:
JReed wrote:.308Win the original short mag.
I hear it makes a real good 800 yard sniper round to.
+1.
Quinn

+2

jlchucker wrote:...Marlin half-magazine 336 in 35 Remington...

+1
With the 200gr pill @2000fps and a 200 yd. zero, it only has 9" of drop @ 250 yds. and is never over 4.62" over your line of sight. Sounds like it could fit the bill!

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:40 pm

You know, I have heard people complain for years that they should build cartridges in the US with minimum body taper and sharp shoulders. That it wasn't that difficult. But our manufacturers were just sticks in the mud. Well now we have them and I bet Mr. Ackley is dancing in his grave. But no one appreciates the recent advancement that so many have complained we weren't formerly getting.

I for one appreciate the factories going towards a more efficient cartridge. I have two of them, which I have never shot. I may, and I may not shoot them, but I still appreciate the move to sharper shoulders. I know many on here have AI versions of various cartridges. They have their purpose, not one that I particularly need, but never the less, they do have a place.

Ed

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:55 pm

There's really nothing wrong with the short mags, in fact they have alot going for them. Problem here is Jason wants a "medium bore" in a lever. The recoil from the 300 wsm is stout from a bolt gun,the 325 is likely to be bit livelier, and they're going to be plumb nasty from the 7 lb BLR.
If he wants to stay away from bolt guns the 308 will get anything done that needs done on game animals on this continent. Fact of the matter it'll geter dun in a bolt gun also.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:14 pm

So here is what I got that fits the bill for me. It meets most of what you are looking for.

Fast handeling: OAL is 36" length of pull 13 1/4"

Light: 6 1/2 pounds (this is with a 22" bull barrel)

Capable of shots to 200 yards and beyond: its a 308 if your that good it has the power to drop deer past 400.

Not a bolt: Its a break open single shot. I know its not a lever.

H&R Survivor in .308Win

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:04 am

Hey

What about a Model 71

I have a BLR 308 and have killed many mule deer with it, but also, really like my 1895GS 45-70/457WW mag. It is great out to 200 yards with a scout scope. I have killed deer with it and it does less meat damage than the .308....however, the .308 BLR is sweet.
What else can I say...I love them all

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:30 am

I know a guy who purchased a .325 short mag in a BLR, he had the rifle a month. Said it had a bit too much muzzle jump.

From what I read in the hunting magazines the barrels on the short mags do not last long either.

Dastook · Post by **Dastook** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:03 am

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:You know you came to the right place when the 45-70 qualifies as Medium Bore.

++1

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:19 am

the 325 is an impressive round capable of some great accuracy. i was very impressed with a friend's rifle. i don't own one as i have other "needs" and i have a .338 win mag. i would not hesitate in getting a blr in 325. it has the ability to do what your asking, but the price of ammo is outrageous as you pointed out.

personally i would probably go with the 358 for several reasons. i have more choices of bullets to choice from to reload. i hunt my reloads as they are built specifically for each gun. although i do have a .35 rem, i have always envied the .358 and would love to add it to my collection.

just curious...why don't you hunt your reloads?

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:29 am

.348 in a 71, 30-06 in a 95, .308 in BLR. or get closer and use a 45-70. I liked the comment on the .54 cal round ball, thats what I have used the last 10 years for hunting in Pa out of my Flintlock. I did manage to take another deer with a lever 45-70, and a few with my longbow and recurves.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:44 am

I'm a 35 cal fan. .358 Win. 180-250 grain loads. 300 yards easy. If I ever get limited to two guns, it will be my 358 BLR and my Marlin Mountie.

I love the 45/70. If you know your gun, 300 yards is easy.

The .308 Win is 300 easy.

All of these can be had in light fast-handling guns and are rounds that are not magnum brutal on your body. The 308 is probably the cheapest to shoot due to milsurp ammo. All are easy to load light to kickin' loads in.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:03 am

I have an 1895 in 45/70 and it's great, but being totally honest, I passed need about 3 guns ago. I got bit by the collector bug and am turning into a bit of a cartridge junkie. I'm just looking for something that fills a category I do not have. I have to spend my tax rebate on something. Hey, just doing my civic duty to stimulate the economy while supporting my local gun shop and the second amendment

How hard is it to form .358 win brass from .308 brass?

WCF3030 · Post by **WCF3030** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:37 am

I could see myself buying a 325WSM.
I'd put a mercury tube in the stock and a kick-ez pad on.
I'm for any sensible thing that brings more money and shooters into the sport.

wm · Post by wm » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:41 am

When I read the first half of your post I thought of two rifles......Winchester 95 in 35 Whelen or any thing in 375 Winchester.

I guess there is nothing wrong with these new cartridges but when they get right down to it I feel like they are reinventing the wheel.

Wm

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:50 am

wm wrote:When I read the first half of your post I thought of two rifles......Winchester 95 in 35 Whelen or any thing in 375 Winchester.

I guess there is nothing wrong with these new cartridges but when they get right down to it I feel like they are reinventing the wheel.

Wm

Same here.

The .338 federal is a promising cartridge, though, but it's only chambered in bolts right now. Ditto for the 338-06.

I'm still considering the Remington 750 in .35 Whelen.

I'll admit part of my affinity for these less than usual cartridges is because I like to be different. Yeah, I guess I have a bit of an ego on me

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:18 am

I thought about short mags for a while..til i saw some of the prices
of the ammo....30-06 is the best all around cartridge for north america..
game, short of alaskan moose and brown bear

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:28 am

Jason_W wrote:How hard is it to form .358 win brass from .308 brass?

Just run a properly lubed case into a properly adjusted full-length sizing die. That's one of the great plusses of the cartridge. Brass should NEVER be a problem.

I recently bought a 1972 era 99A in .308. I'd have gotten a .358 if I could have found one I could afford but, this one can be converted, someday, if I "need" to.

Deer often have standard trails into and out of those browse heaven clearcuts and I have a friend who bowhunts them by setting up on those trails. VERY successful. My point is that range isn't all that. Of course you're doing what I did, rationalizing the accumulation!

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:30 am

Hobie wrote:
Jason_W wrote: Of course you're doing what I did, rationalizing the accumulation!

Of course, it's only human.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:41 am

JReed wrote:.308Win the original short mag.
I hear it makes a real good 800 yard sniper round to.

That's about the best thing I've ever read!

I had an older Belgian BLR in 308 w/ a 2.5 Weaver mounted on it. Was one of the best Shooting, packn' and hiking around rifles I ever had. And I would not hesitate to take a 300 yd shot w/ one of my M-14s.

One thing about the Shortys. They are Danged Loud! I was at the range sitting next to a guy shooting a M70 in 243 WSSM. Holy mackerel! Even w/ muffs on you didn't want to be anywhere near it. He was shootin little bitty groups w/ it though.

I do completly agree w/ the industry bringing out new stuff though. Keeps the average guy interested in the sports and gets them out buying and that is the goal.

We want more choices not less. Right?

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:37 pm

Jason , this is what I did 2 years ago. I hunted with my BLR 308 for about 10 years. It's a great gun , it's hard not to reach for it. I will never sell it . But it was time for something different. So I decided on a 358 BLR. While shopping for a used one I ended up picking up a 356BB.

I love the 35 calibers. The big difference over the 308 is that when I hit deer with the 356 they go down right now. So now this is my favorite deer gun. So if I didn't run across this 356BB I would of been just as happy with the 358 BLR. Anything in the 35 caliber family would be great.

The best thing about the 358 is that if you load 180grain bullets you get the same ballistics as a 30-06 with 180 gr. So you can get plenty of range with that. When I use up my 200 grain bullets . I'm going to try the 180's.

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:45 pm

I'd use my Browning 95 chambered in 30-40 Krag with 165 or 180 grain Sierras. Move up to the 220 grainers if moose are on the docket.

None of the short mags or compact mags hold my interest but I'd never begrudge someone from using one. To each their own.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:17 pm

Jason_W wrote:I have an 1895 in 45/70 and it's great, but being totally honest, I passed need about 3 guns ago. I got bit by the collector bug and am turning into a bit of a cartridge junkie. I'm just looking for something that fills a category I do not have. I have to spend my tax rebate on something. Hey, just doing my civic duty to stimulate the economy while supporting my local gun shop and the second amendment

How hard is it to form .358 win brass from .308 brass?

NOT HARD!

A little powder, cornmeal, tp.....fireformed to your gun. Or just fire some cheap milsurp 308 in it. Or just run the 308 brass through the 358 dies. Same shoulder necked up.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:37 pm

Starting about 3 years ago most of the new rifles I saw my customers drag out of their cases were short mags. Most recently a 7mm RUSM. I have not seen any incredible performance that wasn't accomplished before but some "old" cartridge. In some instances it helped the client by giving them confidence. In other instances it hurt by leading the client to think it would make up for bad shooting, disregard for range, etc. This is not just among the SM family but some other cartridges at one extreme or the other.

We have a ton of moose hunters using .308 very successfully. The most popular factory loading being the 180 Nosler Partition. I like the 165 gr myself - well my rifle likes it better than 180's. Either is very effective on a bunch of critters across the board.

I have seen quite a few 358 Win's in action, including Tycer and RKrodle recently. I have always been impressed that the 358 seems to deliver more than paper calculations would dictate.

I think the '08 or 358 would fit your purposes very well. If you like to be just slightly eccentric, the 356 or 307 would fit nicely as would the 35 Whelen or 358 Norma (but a levergun would be hard to come by in these latter two).

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:23 am

I recently purchased a Ruger in 350 Rem. Mag. ,Inever liked it. traded for a Marlin 450. the short barreled one.
One thing I've noticed bout these Short Mag bolt guns ..it takes a 24in. barrel to get FULL benifit of the advertised Vel. ,,,

The ole 8x57 is hard to beat if you want a boltgun.(I know its a med. length cartridge)
and the 358 win. is another to look at.

But the leverguns in 444,356 are wonderful.
And the 45/70 & 450M are proven to topple the largest of game.
and the 35 Rem. and 375 winny. when loaded right are good for any thing in North America

Opinions on short magnums?

Opinions on short magnums?

Re: Opinions on short magnums?