OT - Blackpowder or no powder only

[rjohns94]

I am moving towards going a year with only using blackpowder firearms or no powder (air rifles) for all of my self defence and hunting needs. I have recently made a purchase that just may cover my self defence needs. Here is what I have lined up to use this year:

I have two sharps, a 50/60 military shiloh and an 1877 in 45-90, both BP rifles. I will use these for Bison and ram/pig shoot in August, and the regular season deer hunt in Pa.

I have ordered the brass 12 gauge shells for my shotgunning use on Dove, Pheasants, small game, and turkey.

I have a 54 cal flintlock for early and late muzzleloader seasons.

I have a 32-20 Dakota arms little sharps for Varmits, ground hogs, turkeys.

for self defence I have a brace of 1851's which I am/can carry in a shoulder bag, they are Colts in .44 caliber or I have Colt SAA in 32-20 which I have ordered a pancake rig. I'm considering getting a 45LC and load BP in that.

Why you might ask? For the heck of it and I think it was OI that suggested it to ScottT a while back on this forum

[Hobie]

Well, the only question is the self-defense side. The shotgun, no problem, but loaded cap'n'ball guns?

Yes, I've done that, with kids and non-shooting (at the time) wife in the house. Loads properly prepared will last for quite a while in a controlled environment. Mine all went off 5 years after being loaded. No hangfires, etc. Taken in and out of the cold? Ummmm... I'd change charges. That's a pain for most folks who can't shoot off their charges nightly. There is a reason there was a big switch to cartridge guns!

As to the rest, well, why not? If you do much shooting, like ScottT, you'll be very experienced especially compared to your average gunshop shooter.

[Old Ironsights]

I... I'm considering getting a 45LC and load BP in that.

While they are still available, I would suggest geting a Stainless Ruger Old Army and getting a .45 Colt cylinder to go with it.

Best of both worlds.

[Hobie]

I... I'm considering getting a 45LC and load BP in that.

While they are still available, I would suggest geting a Stainless Ruger Old Army and getting a .45 Colt cylinder to go with it.

Best of both worlds.

I thought the same thing but didn't say so. That IS a good idea. I've thought of getting one for my ROA just to have it.

[.45colt]

Not to be a Killjoy here but why is this in the classifieds??? I have had a couple shots/an beers after work and wonder if I'm losing it? .Jim.

[Hobie]

Not to be a Killjoy here but why is this in the classifieds??? I have had a couple shots/an beers after work and wonder if I'm losing it? .Jim.

You're not losing it but I am! Moved it now...

[rjohns94]

sorry it got put in the wrong section. I didn't even have any beers. A 5 1/2 ROA is a great idea. I have a 7 1/2 with an R&D cylinder in .45. I like the idea of the shorter barrel. Thanks, Great Idea.

[Andrew]

I... I'm considering getting a 45LC and load BP in that.

While they are still available, I would suggest geting a Stainless Ruger Old Army and getting a .45 Colt cylinder to go with it.

Best of both worlds.

Yeah, and get one for me too.

I think, IMHO, that you should be pretty covered with your collection of arms. I like the idea of a .45LC with BP loads my self. Less hassle that way and more room for adjustments.

[awp101]

A 5 1/2 ROA is a great idea. I have a 7 1/2 with an R&D cylinder in .45. I like the idea of the shorter barrel. Thanks, Great Idea.

I have a 5.5" Remington NMA (Pietta) with the conversion and it's an absolute joy!

[Ysabel Kid]

Well, men made these work 150 years ago, so I imagine you can too. I think I'd rather be hit by a modern slug than a .44 coming out of a 1851!

[C. Cash]

Two reservations come to mind with the Colts.

I wonder if the humidity here in the summer wouldn't give you problems with the charge going off? On the plus side it might justify a trip to the range every week out of necessity to replace the charges. Also, the glory of the revolver is you just thumb it back again and your in business.

Also, will a piece of busted cap fall down inside the works of your Colt at exactly the wrong time and turn it into a club?

If it was all I could carry, you betcha. But I would be hesitant to do so with other options. I have other lives on the line when I walk around the countryside so that's just me.

[gamekeeper]

I have had a couple of Navy Colts and the number of times a piece of busted cap jammed the action made me wonder why Wild Bill Hickok favoured the Navy so much.

[Gobblerforge]

Now I've used black powder for going on 40 years. I have heard all the horror stories of leaving black powder in guns for extended periods of time, but from folks who heard it from folks who heard it from folks. So I've done some tests over time myself and have never found a single problem. This is my take.
If you clean and oil a gun and then load it, the powder is in a contained state just like the can. Air needs to circulate to get moisture into the area of the powder and it can't.
If you take a cold gun into a warm house, it gets condensation on the outside where the air touches but not inside of the bore right away because the bore takes longer to warm and the air doesn't flow through it. If you leave the gun in a gun case, it warms slowly and doesn't get condensation. Same applies for the powder. Kept dry ,the powder doesn't rust the metal. If it did then the metal can the powder comes in would rust too. But it doesn't. Think about it. Most folks are completely confident in transporting or storing powder in a metal can but not in a metal gun. Why? The powder is fine as long as it's dry.
Gobbler

[jhrosier]

FWIW, black powder works fine in the 1911 Colt pistol.
I don't remember what caused me to try it in the first place.
I did it a couple of times to irritate the "serious" target shooters at my club.
They gave condescending nods of approval when I pulled the Gold Cup out of my bag, in stead of the cap & ball revolver, then pretty near soiled themselves when I smoked up the range with 5 quick shots.
Of course, I couldn't even see the target after the second shot.
I still remember the fireballs rolling downrange. Maybe it's time to give it another try.

Jack

[Bluehawk]

Several thoughts .
For self defense I would get a nice stainless OM Ruger Vaquero ( Or New M)and load it with BP Cartridges in 45 Colt I would not feel undergunned at all AND you can escape in the smoke screen
I love the idea of the 32/20 for your small stuff First regular Ground Hog hunting I ever did was a year of shooting them in Columbia county( about 14 miles out side of Bloomsburg) wtih an Old Navy Arms 45/70 RB and mixed BP and smokeless loads BP loads were stuff just tried stuffing BP in shells back then from what I and my brotgher in law had sitting around from our cap and ball revolvers and our Bp hunting guns .
As far as the reliability of the loads : About 3 years ago I aquired a nice 1886 WIn in 38/56. At the time I was working for a guy who was a BIG time gun collector . I told him of my purchase and the next day he brought me into work a jar of old 38/56 ammo he had sitting around . Some had marks on the brass from where it had been carried in Mills belts for some time . It was mixed ammo some lead bullets with BP and some Jacketed bullets with Smokeless . All factory ammo .
NOW form my reading I beleive that no BP ammo had been manufactured for 38/56 since 1926 or 27 and no factory Smokeless had been produced since 1938 Making the BP ammo about 50 years old IF it had been manufactured the last year of production , so it could be much older than that. ALL of that BP ammo to date has fired perfectly on the first try ONE hang fire in 23 rounds and that was minor . Accuracy was very good around 3 inch groups at 100 yards
The smokeless , on the other hand , has had about 50% failure to fire and it is PROBABLY newer ammo . Accuracy was on the same par when it went off .
I stil have about 6 rounds of the Black and about 8 rounds of the Smokeless I KNOW its worth money to collectors but I dont care I shoot off a round every once in a while to make sure its still functioning and get a kick out of seeing ammo that old still work well .
Bottom line GO FOR IT

[Nath]

Yeah good for you and respect Sir. The 12g is a hoot
As YK says a soft pure lead ball will flatten rite out in ya compared to a harder slug! Lots of horror stories about black. I just grease my guns up with a olive oil/beeswax mix melted together on the stove in a tin and then cooled.(good for the skin too). When I'm using my shotguns (M/L) and I know i'm using it the next day I just pull the shot and grease the bore out down to the wad and smear the breech outside well and slip a note in the muzzles "powdered". Anyway whats a little rust- just imagine what some of them pioneers guns must of looked like!
Nath.

[2ndovc]

When I was a kid I spent a lot of time shooting black powder guns. My Dad had a ton of black powder stuff and didn't shoot much. My first handgun was/ is a Uberti '51 Navy and about the same time I got a Spanish .36 cal smooth bore pistol. Back then, even though we lived w/ in the city limits I could get away with shooting shot loads in the back yard. Only ever jammed up the '51 once. I used to leave the Single shot loaded for weeks with no caps, even in the summer. Don't remember the thing not going off when a woodchuck or muskrat presented itself as long as I cleaned it after I shot it.

I've said this before but, Mike you sure are an interesting guy. Just curious about why the self imposed boycott of smokeless powder.

"Just because" is fine but I was wondering if it is deeper than that.

[AJMD429]

FWIW, black powder works fine in the 1911 Colt pistol....I still remember the fireballs rolling downrange. Maybe it's time to give it another try.
Jack

What loads did you use that functioned the action? I have to try this!

I did see a 1911 one time someone had fitted a breech block and cap system to so it functioned as a muzzle loader, but this would be even better - I could use my regular .45!

[Griff]

Since I shot BP in most of my CAS matches since 1987, it's certainly not a new concept to me. I carry my SAA loaded with about 35grs of FFFg under a 200gr RFN boolit. For competition, I've mostly used about 25grs under a 185gr WFN for the handgun. Same powder charge in the '73 rifle with a 225gr TC boolit.

This last Saturday nite I found I needed to load some more ammo for the match on Sunday. I took down the dies to clean excess lube out of them and didn't get my OAL correct for the '73 and ended up having to shoot the final 4 stages of the match with smokeless! Since my 25 gr. FFFg loads are about equivalent to my 6.5 gr. RedDot loads, there's very little difference in recoil or POI... just the visibility!

Good luck with your project. Keep us up to date!

[Swampman]

I'd never subject a complicated modern firearm to blackpowder. You'll never get it all out.

If I were going to ruin a modern gun by usiing blackpowder in it, it would be an NEF Handi or an NEF Pardner. At least the loss isn't so great.

[Griff]

I'd never subject a complicated modern firearm to blackpowder. You'll never get it all out...

Not so. It does take a little more attention to detail, but... let's see, I've been using these Colt SAAs, Uberti 1873 rifle and an Stoeger SXS since 1987 and have encountered no problems associated with BP. If you inspected them, you'd never know they'd had BP thru them, let alone on a very consistent basis.

Now, for a semi-auto, I'd agree whole-heartedly. They'll gum up from the fouling residue in pretty short order. At least, that's what I've been told; I've never had a desire to test it!

[jhrosier]

FWIW, black powder works fine in the 1911 Colt pistol....I still remember the fireballs rolling downrange. Maybe it's time to give it another try.
Jack

What loads did you use that functioned the action? I have to try this!
....

It was 35 years ago and I don't remember the exact charge weight.
I used an amount of fffg that just touched the bottom of a 185 gr. SWC, seated with the shoulder about 1/32" out of the case. This is what the gun liked to feed the SWCs.
I was a little surprised by the amount of recoil. It functioned like a full load of smokeless would be expected, snappy recoil and cases ejected into about the same location as smokeless powder loads.
Cleanup wasn't too bad or much different than any other BP gun. Detail strip and wash all except the grips in hot soapy water, spray down good with aerosol gun oil, wipe off excess and reassemble.
Brass was so cheap in those days that I didn't bother ot pick it up. If I try it again, I will sort a bunch of nickled cases out of my well used lot. I clean rifle brass with about 4 oz of vinegar in a half gallon of hot water and it comes out nice and clean, agitate and then let it sit for a half hour, drain and rinse twice with plain water.

Jack

[jhrosier]

...
Now, for a semi-auto, I'd agree whole-heartedly. They'll gum up from the fouling residue in pretty short order. At least, that's what I've been told; I've never had a desire to test it!

'Snot all that bad. If you have a charge that is enough to expand the cases properly, most of the soot goes out the chimney.
That being said, I wouldn't try it with a gun that is not easy to detail strip, like the 1911 is.

My worst experience was with BP in a Ruger Security--Six. The fouling got inside the cylinder assembly and it was a massive pain to get apart and back together. Besides that, the gun only functioned for about a dozen rounds before it clogged up and quit working.

I had good results with BP in a .357 Maxi H&R single shot rifle. It shot as well as any smokeless load that I tried. Same loading technique, fill the case to the bottom of the bullet. I didn't have a chronograph in those days so I don't know the velocity, but it shot pretty close to the same point at 25 yards with BP or smokeless. I had this one out a couple of months ago to try the BP loads again, but broke my decapper pin after ten shots and had to quit. I got another decapper and am going to try it again in a few weeks. The cartridge is similar in proportion to some of the old Maynard calibers and I believe that it will do well for short range, maybe out to a hundred yards.

Jack

[rjohns94]

Jason,

In these times, I'm not sure what the gov't is gonna take away from us or not. I thought I would go with the black powder thing for a while. When OI mentioned it to ScottT a while back, Scott declined because he had other firearms he liked to shoot and didn't want to limit his shooting fun. I have always enjoyed BP and have been shooting it since 1981. My recent acquisition of the 1851's from sixgun and my research on them has really solidified this for me. I know people say that the primers often fall into the action and jam it, but others don't have a problem with this. The ROA I have also has a .45lc cylinder from R&D. This got me thinking about the .45lc as alternate for self defence. I have a FA in 45lc that I could use also. I was thinking of a double action in .45lc for self protection. Still not sure there. The bison hunt will have me sighting in and shooting the 45-90 with 535gr bullets alot over the next 5 months. The new 32-20 sharps is begging to be used on the ground hogs, that takes me to sept where dove season comes in and the 12gauge in BP will be used. I used a caplock side by side the last several years so that is no big stretch. Early season muzzleloader brings out the .54 as it has for the last 10 years. Then the regular season, where I can use the .50 cal sharps. Then late season flintlock and back to the .54. That takes me to Feb and a year in black powder with out having to fire smokeless. Should the experience get dull or non fun, I will quickly shift out of it but I just don't see that happening. Hopefully, the freezer will be filled with Bison, ram, hog, venison, dove, rabbit, squirrel, pheasant and turkey from this next year and the pictures of the hunts for those and the fox and groundhogs that I hope to take. Add to that my longbows for archery season deer, carp and frogs and small game, or my pellet rifles for the critters that cause nusance around the homestead, fills me with hope of a very satisfying year and perhaps a reconnection with the restless spirit that is growing in me. I long to roam the wilderness and perhaps I will get a chance this year to do just that with the BP arms in my inventory. I worry about the future of shooting in this country, and with the expense of ammo going through the roof, I really need to get in touch with the ancient in me. Kind of a cleansing of sorts. long may it last.

blessings

[awp101]

FWIW, black powder works fine in the 1911 Colt pistol.

There was a BP discussion on another board where a poster said that back in the '70s he'd loaded up enough 9mm rounds with BP to run a mags worth through his MP40.

Said he got the idea from a Phil Spangenberger (IIRC) article where he'd loaded up some BP .45ACP rounds to run through a Thompson SMG.

[Malamute]

I have a book that quotes an officer in the Civil war commenting on the difference in caps for Colts and Starr pistols, the caps that would work for the Starr would break in pieces in the Colts, and the caps meant for Colts would not be set off reliably in the Starr. This reflects my experience. Some brands of caps break apart when shot, and some don't. I came into some Navy Arms caps that do not break apart when shot in Colts type pistols. All caps are not made equal. I believe that most of the problem is caps made to work on anything, instead of specific uses.

If anyone knows of another brand of caps that don't go to pieces when fired, I'd like to know what make they are, my small lot of Navy Arms caps won't last forever. I use the other makes for fun shooting.

I would have no qualms about using a good black powder gun for protection, tho I think I'd want a Dragoon (or two) for protection up where the bears live.

[2ndovc]

Jason,

In these times, I'm not sure what the gov't is gonna take away from us or not. I thought I would go with the black powder thing for a while. When OI mentioned it to ScottT a while back, Scott declined because he had other firearms he liked to shoot and didn't want to limit his shooting fun. I have always enjoyed BP and have been shooting it since 1981. My recent acquisition of the 1851's from sixgun and my research on them has really solidified this for me. I know people say that the primers often fall into the action and jam it, but others don't have a problem with this. The ROA I have also has a .45lc cylinder from R&D. This got me thinking about the .45lc as alternate for self defence. I have a FA in 45lc that I could use also. I was thinking of a double action in .45lc for self protection. Still not sure there. The bison hunt will have me sighting in and shooting the 45-90 with 535gr bullets alot over the next 5 months. The new 32-20 sharps is begging to be used on the ground hogs, that takes me to sept where dove season comes in and the 12gauge in BP will be used. I used a caplock side by side the last several years so that is no big stretch. Early season muzzleloader brings out the .54 as it has for the last 10 years. Then the regular season, where I can use the .50 cal sharps. Then late season flintlock and back to the .54. That takes me to Feb and a year in black powder with out having to fire smokeless. Should the experience get dull or non fun, I will quickly shift out of it but I just don't see that happening. Hopefully, the freezer will be filled with Bison, ram, hog, venison, dove, rabbit, squirrel, pheasant and turkey from this next year and the pictures of the hunts for those and the fox and groundhogs that I hope to take. Add to that my longbows for archery season deer, carp and frogs and small game, or my pellet rifles for the critters that cause nusance around the homestead, fills me with hope of a very satisfying year and perhaps a reconnection with the restless spirit that is growing in me. I long to roam the wilderness and perhaps I will get a chance this year to do just that with the BP arms in my inventory. I worry about the future of shooting in this country, and with the expense of ammo going through the roof, I really need to get in touch with the ancient in me. Kind of a cleansing of sorts. long may it last.

blessings

Like I said you sure are an interesting guy. I'm always curious as to the "why" people do what they do and what drives their interests.

Just like the affect hanging out here has renewed my interest in blackpowder by reading your posts and other's.

Even picked up a Ruger Old Army this morning.

jb

[Griff]

Just to be clear, when I was typing semi-auto, I was thinking gas operated, not blow-back designs. I've seen guys shoot BP thru their 1911s, while it doesn't interest me, I'd still have to say I'd avoid it like the plague thru my M-1 Garand.

[Nath]

[/quote]Jason,

In these times, I'm not sure what the gov't is gonna take away from us or not. I thought I would go with the black powder thing for a while. When OI mentioned it to ScottT a while back, Scott declined because he had other firearms he liked to shoot and didn't want to limit his shooting fun. I have always enjoyed BP and have been shooting it since 1981. My recent acquisition of the 1851's from sixgun and my research on them has really solidified this for me. I know people say that the primers often fall into the action and jam it, but others don't have a problem with this. The ROA I have also has a .45lc cylinder from R&D. This got me thinking about the .45lc as alternate for self defence. I have a FA in 45lc that I could use also. I was thinking of a double action in .45lc for self protection. Still not sure there. The bison hunt will have me sighting in and shooting the 45-90 with 535gr bullets alot over the next 5 months. The new 32-20 sharps is begging to be used on the ground hogs, that takes me to sept where dove season comes in and the 12gauge in BP will be used. I used a caplock side by side the last several years so that is no big stretch. Early season muzzleloader brings out the .54 as it has for the last 10 years. Then the regular season, where I can use the .50 cal sharps. Then late season flintlock and back to the .54. That takes me to Feb and a year in black powder with out having to fire smokeless. Should the experience get dull or non fun, I will quickly shift out of it but I just don't see that happening. Hopefully, the freezer will be filled with Bison, ram, hog, venison, dove, rabbit, squirrel, pheasant and turkey from this next year and the pictures of the hunts for those and the fox and groundhogs that I hope to take. Add to that my longbows for archery season deer, carp and frogs and small game, or my pellet rifles for the critters that cause nusance around the homestead, fills me with hope of a very satisfying year and perhaps a reconnection with the restless spirit that is growing in me. I long to roam the wilderness and perhaps I will get a chance this year to do just that with the BP arms in my inventory. I worry about the future of shooting in this country, and with the expense of ammo going through the roof, I really need to get in touch with the ancient in me. Kind of a cleansing of sorts. long may it last.

blessings


jhrosier Posted: Fri Mar 14

Well said
Nath.

[bigbore442001]

Don't laugh but here in Massachusetts a lot of hunters have gone to blackpowder/muzzleloading only. Many hunters lost their licenses to carry or firearms ID when the laws became much more stringent concerning past offenses.