1886 40-82 loading issue

[86Slinger]

Good day,

I formed some 40-82 out of Starline 45-90 with a set of Redding dies. It was a chore, I don't have the form die. But the cases came out real nice. I use a custom 280gn mold and size the bullets to .406.

After all preparations are made I had a loaded round in my hand and it wouldn't chamber. Using my trusty magic marker I see the round is bottoming out right on the shoulder of the case. I tried running the loaded round through the sizing die minus the decapping pin, still bottoms out right on that shoulder.

Does anyone know how to bump the shoulders on these 40-82 cases back with these dies, or can someone give me some direction on this problem please? Have a beauty of a rifle and would like to try it out.

Thanks.

[Mainehunter]

First, Welcome to the forum!

Second, Make sure the chamber is cleaned up, may have burs or such that's preventing you to chamber the round.

Third, Either take the shell holder that you have and start shaving it using a file (.001 +/1) where the die touches, go slow and checking frequently.That shell holder would be custom to your rifle OR I think Redding makes custom shell holders for this purpose.

I made one up a few years ago for my Herters 401 Power Mag so I could use 41 Mag. cases. I'm actually using some cast bullets that were made for the 40-82 because of the oversized chamber (.407).

The last thing is when you have a chance, post some picks of your 86! I would love to see it and I'm sure other's here would like to see it too

Mainehunter

[M. M. Wright]

Mainehunter has it right but I would grind off a little of the die face where it contacts the shell holder. I'm thinking that both the die and holder will be too hard to file. Be sure you have the die adjusted to where the press has to "cam over" very tightly against the contact between holder and die.
Welcome in and yes we would very much like to see pictures.
Running the loaded round through the sizing die will swage your bullet down to a smaller diameter too. Makes for inaccurate loads.
Did you ream the necks or turn the outside to get the proper neck thickness?

[86Slinger]

Well here's the thing. These cases I have sized out of the Starline 45-90, even after a trip through the 40-82 die they creak and groan running through there, like it's their first trip. They came out perfect with no creases upon sizing but now when I run a case that's 40-82 through there I get a lot of resistance and they come out dented and creased.

I filed a couple shell holders down and gained a bit forward into the chamber, I just need a little more. But the amount of material removed off the shell holder leads to the lip being pulled off and a stuck case. I don't know why I'm getting so much resistance feeding these already sized cases through that die, or the denting and creasing since they initially sized perfectly.

I have no neck reaming or trimming equipment. I had some ordered but it was back ordered for months so I just cancelled. It apparently is the shoulder stopping the chambering according to the 'ol magic marker, but now I've got these dents to contend with. My press is coming close to ripping off the table forcing them through there.

[hondo1892]

Try annealing the brass, it may have work hardened enough that the brass is springing back out. Don't try annealing unless you unload and decap first.

[M. M. Wright]

Try lubing them with a small amount of STP. It's what I use. Too much lube and you get the dents like you are talking about. Like I said before, I'd take the metal off the die instead of the shell holder.

[Sixgun]

Get a 44 brush with some carb cleaner and work over the chamber real good. Swab it out.

You say you tried to chamber a "loaded round". Try to chamber an empty resized round. ----------6

[3855]

I ran into a situation like that a few times.

First of all, use a good lubricant. Imperial sizing wax is available at many gun supply outfits is the best I have used. A little of this goes a long way. Good stuff.

If the shoulder of the case is what is preventing it from chambering, it needs to be formed back further. I used the following technique and it works for me.

Remove the primer decapper and case mouth expander from your sizing die. Leave the die hollow. Unscrew the die a turn or so from normal in the press. Put a small washer on top of your shell holder, set the case on it, align carefully and then push the case on in. You will need to experiment with depth but this will allow you to get the case to go farther into the die and consequently pushing the shoulder further back. Do this carefully adjusting your die down into the press until the case will just chamber in the rifle. To get the case out of the sizing die each time, punch it out with a brass punch or wooden dowel from the top.

An extreme method but has worked for me in the past in situations like this when I found nothing else that would. I have done this several times over the years and have been shooting those cases since. Others may not agree but it was the only method that would work for several old guns. Once shoulders were formed back initially, subsequent reloads were normal and uneventful.

[Charles]

I would not place my entire faith in a Magic Marker. You should make certain your cases are a good fit for the rifle BEFORE you load the rounds. Here is a list of possible problems that come to mind.

1. Cases are to long for the chamber and need to be trimmed to fit.
2. Bullet not a proper fit for the barrel throat and won't enter far enough.
3. Rifle chamber to short
4. Sizing die to long
5. Shell holder to tall

I should think a chamber case is in order to give you the information about the chamber and barrel throat specs.

Grinding the top of the shell holder is the way to go if the case need to go farther into the die. Always modify the cheapest part so if you mess up, the cost is less. Shell holders are way cheaper than dies.

[Ray Newman]

Charles is definitely onto something, esp. Item #1 in his list of possible causes.

In my case forming experience, the cases -- more often than not -- lengthen. Think of it like this: you are making a .45 cal. case smaller. All of the brass must flow or move someplace.

Do you have or know of anyone with a vernier to measure the case overall length?

As Hondo1892 posted, you may need to anneal --soften with heat --the cases before forming.

And again speaking from personal experience, a chamber cast is a very good idea. 'Ya nevva' know about these old rifles and the bore and chamber sizes.

[86Slinger]

Thanks for everyones help. I need to shelve this for awhile. I'm missing some equipment that would get the job done. Grinding the die to get the case further in for tighter sizing definitely helped, and annealing made these big cases much more friendly to work with.

It seems now that I need to ream the necks as this is also preventing chambering. I think I'm best off just waiting on the proper equipment to do the full job. A set of reaming equipment for the necks, also some cerrosafe to mold the chamber and throat and really see what I'm up against. I might as well order the form die for 40-82 also while I'm at it.

I'm in Canada so this stuff doesn't lie around up here. I'll just order it Stateside and wait on the mailman. Start from step one with the complete skid of tools.

In the meantime here's some pictures of the rifle. 1891 mfg, Oct Bbl, Button Mag. Vivid colors throughout, overall excellent condition. Excellent bore. Letters as it sits including the sights. A real gem of an 86.

[Twodot]

Slinger,
Very nice rifle gun.
Looks like it came out of a museum.
..

[Gunnin'Wreck]

You, sir, have an outstanding rifle.

I am not going to give you any advice on how to modify your loading equipment to make it produce the shells you want. There seems to be a number of folks already responding that know more about that than I do.

I would like to ask a couple of questions and make an observation.

- Have you tried to chamber an original (factory) round in the rifle? (You might have to get some from one of the custom reloading outfits)

- Did you ever get a chamber cast made for the rifle?

- Are you loading a compressed load of powder?

The observation is that before you start modifying your reloading equipment, it might pay to determine where the problem occurs. I bring this up for a couple of reasons:

1. I have had shoulders bulged out by compressed loads. Starline brass seems to run on the thick side, and that combined with swaging the brass down, may be contributing to the compression of the powder.

2. Most die manufacturers will make a problem with one of their dies right, but they get kind of cranky if you modify them.

3. With the popularity of these rifles going up all the time, it may be that 40-82 ammunition/brass will be offered in the future (if it isn't already), and if you have a non-standard chamber you will be out of luck.

Just a few thoughts. Good luck with your investigation.

[Charles]

I have never reamed a case neck in my life, nor do I intend to start at this stage of life. In fact I have never had a case that needed to be reamed, and that included some pretty fierce case reforming.

I do from time to time outside turn case necks. This does the same thing as reaming (reducing the case neck thickness), plus give you case necks that are 100% uniform in thickness all the way around. This is a big help in having uniform neck tension on the bullet, which helps in accuracy to boot. Neck turning beats neck reaming seven ways to breakfast.

Neck turning equipment is no more expensive than reaming equipment. If you already have a Forester case trimmer, a neck turning attachment can be had fairly cheap.

I would expect to trim those cases you are forming. Forming does often lengthen the case and it sure makes the case mouths out of square. Trimming gives the correct length and a square case mouth.

I applaud your decision to place the project on hold until you have what you need to get it done. Such things are much simpler when you have the right tools. Forming 40-82 cases from 45-90 cases and firing them in a vintage 86 is way beyond basic reloading. You passed kitchen table reloading long ago with this project.

BTW..That is one fine Winchester 86. I am envious!

[86Slinger]

Oh yes, it's my highest condition 86. And I've got a few nice ones.

I'll be getting a few things:

1. Cerrosafe. A good first step with this rifle would be a chamber/throat cast.
2. Neck turning equipment. I'll order a good set from Sinclair. These cases are thick, they even 'look' thick!

But in the meantime I did get some cases running in and out smoothly, thanks to the tips and advice from you guys here. I ground off the die face until the cartridge didn't bottom out on the shoulder, then used a washer to stuff it all the way in there. The Imperial Sizing Wax made this possible, good stuff. Also cleaned and cleaned the bore and chamber, there was oil that had turned to varnish.

Yes this is beyond basic reloading. I've never had issues like this and shoot bucketfuls of 45-70, 45-90, 44-40, 30-30, etc all in old levers. Good learning experience for me and all it cost me was a few crinkled cases and some time!

Thanks for all your help guys! I'll keep you posted if I shoot a round or two.