Are crossbows legal for deer in your state?

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue May 07, 2013 8:53 am

Our department of fish and wildlife here in Oregon is considering allowing them to be used by disabled hunters, and the local archery community is having a conniption fit. My own guess is that were legal, a few use them, but by far the majority of archery hunters still prefer their compounds or traditional bows. If crossbows are legal in your state, have they had any measurable impact on your hunting seasons? I think fear of crossbows is nonsense and hysteria. They are no wonder weapon, and have little range advantage over a compound.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:04 am

Yep!

Take note------------------once they start that--------------------------------full allowed use(for general pop)soon to come.
Everybody and anybody will be running to the Doc getting a slip cause their Roto-Cuff is acting up.

I see it here-----------------------guys that have them-------out cutting wood same week!

Probably most you guys on here won't like this--------------but unless (someone is disabled where they are on disability etc)let em hunt like everyone else.

Personally---------I don't like crossbows-----either use a bow/or use a gun!

I would not have an issue with (those on actual disability,"unable to work")------having something also like a special week of hunting or better yet let em use a gun and put it in with regular bow season (just for that group)

Once the general pop has the OK----(and they will)you regular gun hunters will see many less big bucks etc.
That early bow season was originally thought to be for those many less hunters willing to hunt (the hard way)not impacting the herds as much.

Way I figure it-------------if you are using crossbows make em use them only during normal gun season and take your chances with the rest of the general pop!

Being in a tree stand with a red dotted crossbow capable of dead accurate 75+ yd shots------------------------might as well just serve em a dead deer at the store!

If your disabled enough but still can cock a crossbow you can cock a gun too!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:16 am

They're legal in Fla. I don't see where they've made that much of an impact when you consider the modern compound bows there's little difference IMHO.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:23 am

Man you must be one heck of a shot!

Most guys I know can't wack a soda can(every time)at 75+yds????????

The problem is (if you can shoot a gun----you can shoot a crossbow)especially fitted with a good red dot.
Shooting a hand released bow(compound or not)----totally different.

Up here-----------------------have noticed difference in the number of big bucks taken early and screwing the gun hunters some.

But here-------no never mind----------------------ain't going be no crossbows!

Example---------------------my wife shot my BIL's (Horton)first time kneeling (and at 50yds put it in a 4" bull 3 out of 3 tries)
Like to see her do that with a bow----------------------------not taking into account being in a stand/bunch of clothes on in the cold trying to draw the bow

ps------------------my BIL ain't using his here either.

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:29 am

Rusty wrote:They're legal in Fla. I don't see where they've made that much of an impact when you consider the modern compound bows there's little difference IMHO.

It boils down to guys thinking they are getting cheated out of somthing, xbows are leagal here in Wyoming. I mean look at what has been said, compound bows exceed 350 fps now with 80% let off, cross bows have been around for 2000 years that should be primitive.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:37 am

You guys are missing my whole point-------------------------------

You can buy the best compound there is------(a Mathews

) fit it with the best Mepro lighted sights/inertia rest/10" stabilizer etc.

Don't matter---------shooting a bow(for the normal general pop)you still need skill.(bow skill)

Anyone-----that can get that crossbow (cocked)and can aim a gun and sqeeze a trigger decent------can hit with a crossbow(and far off)if they can hit with a gun!

Maybe its me------------------but a huge difference!

Why a lot of hunters in States say they have not noticed the deer difference is because many of those States have just recently changed from (the disabled deal only)to any hunter. Here(2011) and in Pa(2009) it has not been long enough to show per what the DEC reviews----but hunters I see--------------------notice!
Give it time--------------------and most the gun hunters will see!

Do you know why-------so many more hunters will be hunting crossbow ???? ---------it is not because of the bigger bucks-------most of the ones (using crossbow)I have talked to using them-------------------hate the cold!
You watch-------------------------pretty soon everybody will be running around in the warm weather chasing Bambi with a crossbow------might as well just open up everything then and let the gun hunters have the edge!

Pitiful!

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:51 am

Harry, do you know if the success rate for archers vs. cross bow hunters is similar in Wyoming? My guess is it would be -- and that there is little extra advantage to be gained by choosing the heavy and awkward crossbow other than the novelty.
Madman, I agree more skill and muscle power are required to shoot a compound (and even more for traditional tackle). But if the main job is to sneak within range of a deer, it seems both weapons are close to equal. Of course, out here in Oregon very few hunt from tree stands, as we have very few whitetails and a lot of blacktails and mulies.
I'm not sure I like the idea of red dots being allowed.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:57 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:Harry, do you know if the success rate for archers vs. cross bow hunters is similar in Wyoming? My guess is it would be -- and that there is little extra advantage to be gained by choosing the heavy and awkward crossbow other than the novelty.
Madman, I agree more skill and muscle power are required to shoot a compound (and even more for traditional tackle). But if the main job is to sneak within range of a deer, it seems both weapons are close to equal. Of course, out here in Oregon very few hunt from tree stands, as we have very few whitetails and a lot of blacktails and mulies.
I'm not sure I like the idea of red dots being allowed.

ya, up here its whitetails only(basically woods only)when using bow(of any type)
The latest crossbows(with a quality dot scope)from a tree stand(which many are now using the front rest rack support on their stand)any deer at lets just say 80yds----------------pretty much a Dead deer!

Huge difference from "standing" on a stand in a tree-----drawing a bow/aiming with a pin(estimating distance)and having proper release.
These new crossbows out to far distances (because of the short arrow shaft length) and speed of flight are much more trajectory friendly!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:06 am

No difference--------------------------------------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQthc4jap4

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:10 am

Madman, I was just googling this subject and found this article on the experience Michigan has had with legalizing crossbows.

http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/Article.aspx?id=7847

One big difference in East vs. West coast deer management is that in the East you have very vigorous whitetail populations that desperately need harvest. In many far West states, the populations are stable or in decline and the management goal is to expand hunter opportunity without greatly increasing harvest. It's really apples and oranges. Last I knew, New York harvests more deer than any other state in the Union.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:16 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:Madman, I was just googling this subject and found this article on the experience Michigan has had with legalizing crossbows.

http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/Article.aspx?id=7847

One big difference in East vs. West coast deer management is that in the East you have very vigorous whitetail populations that desperately need harvest. In many far West states, the populations are stable or in decline and the management goal is to expand hunter opportunity without greatly increasing harvest. It's really apples and oranges. Last I knew, New York harvests more deer than any other state in the Union.

Desperately need harvest(beyond any other time within the last 50 years)-----------------My answer to that---------------------bullsh##
That is what they say?????????????????

Coyotes and bears(the fawns) are getting about half of them already---------now a days!
Next it will be peoples chained up dogs too??????????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ3ieUUo ... ZQ&index=9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke4f7vX1 ... ZQ&index=8

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:20 am

Oklahoma not too long ago made them legal across the board, where formerly it was for disabilities only----

I thought about it myself, but after seeing the fps and the ft/lbs of energy difference between a heavier full length arrow and a lighter crossbow bolt, I just decided to stick (no pun intended) with what I've got
-- not to mention crossbows are pretty darn $$$

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:27 am

madman4570 wrote:No difference--------------------------------------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQthc4jap4

I didn't need to see that --- I like toys too much

-- that looks like too much fun !

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:35 am

A modern crossbow that shoots anywhere from 280-355 fps is effective only out to about 40 yards. It has no more power and a similar trajectory to a compound bow with the same velocity. If you use a scope on a crossbow, it is possible to adjust it to hit reasonably well at 75 yards but then it would be virtually impossible to shoot at shorter ranges since the high arc trajectory would not permit the scope enough room to hold under. A crossbow is extremely loud, some more than a 22LR from a pistol! Deer will jump the string much more readily than if a compound bow is fired at them. Crossbows are no more accurate than a compound bow, just a bit easier to shoot when aiming for longer than a few seconds due to the necessity to hold back the vertical bow. Most crossbow transitionists were vertical bow hunters anyway. The ABA and NSSF has documented less than 10% of any one States rifle hunters that did not bow hunt also taking up a crossbow for bow season. States with very early bow seasons (Sept) or States with bow-only areas see some large bucks taken during these seasons because they are on a regular pattern to-from food and bedding area. Again, reported buck harvest in a 3 year period after crossbows are made universally legal in an area shows an increase of only 2%. Doe harvest does increase approximately 12.5%, but that is because does are still in groups of several and very young deer may be antlerless regardless of sex so males and femals that are 6.5 months old are taken. Texas has legalized crossbows. We have an archery season that last 1 month prior to regular season. There are very few archery hunters overall in Texas for many reasons. One reason is that most of the State has multiple deer limit, use of bait is legal and the season is long (up to 6 months). The odds of getting a mature buck in archery season is less than 4% compared to the odds of getting one later in the year with a gun (TXDPW 2011 report). It is legal to use a bow of any type throughout the seaon so in heavily wooded areas hunters may choose to do this. Also, many areas that were closed to hunting are opened due to archery hunting. Typically near suburbs where deer are in high concentration. In Texas this includes Denton area, Collin County and Harker Heights area among others. Archery only is legal in the city limits in those areas. There is not enough interest and particpation to knock the population down with vertical bow hunters so some crossbow hunters that cannot use a vertical bow tend to take advantage of the ability to hunt in these areas. The annual limit does not increase by using a bow of any type so the overall harvest is still in check with conservation goals.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:53 am

Streetstar, 86er: I think a lot of potential crossbow users looks at the realities of the crossbow's cost and limitations and take a pass.
Madman, sorry to hear New York whitetails are under serious population pressure. There are many whitetail states with the opposite problem. Wisconsin actually gives you a bonus buck tag in some units if you'll buy a couple of doe tags.
Here in Oregon, taking does (or cow elk) is controversial and highly limited to drawings.

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:05 am

Don't have a crossbow, have hunted with a bow a couple of times. A friend uses a crossbow, and he is no more accurate with it than I am with my compound bow. I realize that is not much to base anything on. I know 86er and it would appear that he has done his homework on this subject. I really don't mind if someone wants to use a crossbow.

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:16 am

madman4570 wrote:Man you must be one heck of a shot!

Most guys I know can't wack a soda can(every time)at 75+yds????????

The problem is (if you can shoot a gun----you can shoot a crossbow)especially fitted with a good red dot.
Shooting a hand released bow(compound or not)----totally different.

Up here-----------------------have noticed difference in the number of big bucks taken early and screwing the gun hunters some.

But here-------no never mind----------------------ain't going be no crossbows!

Example---------------------my wife shot my BIL's (Horton)first time kneeling (and at 50yds put it in a 4" bull 3 out of 3 tries)
Like to see her do that with a bow----------------------------not taking into account being in a stand/bunch of clothes on in the cold trying to draw the bow

ps------------------my BIL ain't using his here either.

I would call BS on that claim, I've been shooting a cross bow for 10 years, a Quad 400. My 15 year old PSE compound arrows will out perform the bolts by quite alot. If your buds are carrying there cross bow cocked and locked that it an ethical call on their part, and I don't do that. But as said, compound bows will easly out perform any but one cross bow, the PSE tatical that fits on a AR lower and has over 450 fps speed.

KWK · Post by **KWK** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:20 am

Unless you're a cripple, Illinois allows them only in the latter part of the firearm season. The other bow hunters get first try at the deer each year.

I don't see how anyone who uses a compound bow with optical sights and a mechanical release can whine about someone using a crossbow; there's not that much difference. Of course, since I shoot only a bare long bow, perhaps I'm prejudiced...

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:28 am

The crossbow bolts are shorter and heavier. The short, heavy bolt combined with the short limbs and draw length of the crossbow require 3 to 4 times the draw weight to achieve the same velocity of a compound bow. IE: 175 LBS crossbow 14.5" draw 18" bolt Average 290 fps. 60 LBS vertical bow 28" draw 30" arrow Average 315 fps. They (crossbows) lose velocity and momentum at a faster rate than arrows used in compound bows. This is somewhat compensated for with a heavier broadhead. Typical crossbow bolt broadhead is 150 grain with a few 125 gr and the rare 100 grain. Typical arrow broadhead is 100 gr with 125 gr being less common and 90, 85 and even 75 gr being useful and effective. Once you get past 50 yards, the compound bow takes over as far as reliability of a pass-through hit with ample blood trail. New crossbowers learn VERY quickly that standard equipment is woefully lacking in ability to kill a deer at a distance. More, expensive and harder to use equipment can compensate somewhat. There are 250 lbs draw weight crossbows and up to 400 fps. Broadhead weights up to 180 grains are available and arrow inserts are used to make them heavier. If you have a $500 compound bow set up ready to hunt, you will need a $850 crossbow to EXCEED the vertical bows performance. That is not including more expensive accessories. Now for the same $500 you can get a crossbow with EQUAL performance to the vertical bow with each around 300 fps, similar KE and similar Momentum. So - theoretically the crossbow would be no more effective at all.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:31 am

If they were made legal here, my only interest would be to try to build a working replica of a crossbow from the Middle Ages, just for the historical experience. This is the weapon that popes once banned as "evil" because it allowed a relatively untrained commoner (vs. an English longbowman) to threaten a horse-mounted nobleman in armor. (Bad form sir!) But then, I also have a handgonne fired with a match on a serpentine ...

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:32 am

Only thing I have to add, hitting anything still comes down to practice. Some people were against allowing scopes to hunt with years ago as it gave others an unfair advantage. Without the practice and the learned skills, I just don't see how it can be that much of a difference.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:33 am

piller wrote:Don't have a crossbow, have hunted with a bow a couple of times. A friend uses a crossbow, and he is no more accurate with it than I am with my compound bow. I realize that is not much to base anything on. I know 86er and it would appear that he has done his homework on this subject. I really don't mind if someone wants to use a crossbow.

You guys must all be Robin Hoods ????????

Can you shoot as well offhand at 75yds with a rifle compared to shooting on the bench????
Accuracy is enhanced with the crossbow (because)it is because of this option of having that resting platform option(even in the stand)as you would with a rifle.
Sure if you guys are Pro-quality archers---then ?????????

I know for a fact the guy I shoot Skeet with his CrossBow shoots around 375fps and I have shot it.(think he shoots a Stryker brand??)
Absolutely it is not as quiet as a compound----and yes you will get more deer jump.
But that crossbow is about as quiet as my (quiet)Benjamin Trail NP air rifle(about 90db)think a .22 pistol is about 30% louder???

He if I remember correctly(during deer season) sights his in at 40yds(zero)and from 20-60 yds has less than a foot spread between zero point.(am thinking 8")

I almost always agree with Joe-------but proff is in the pudding---------example(my wife)just the plain jane person having the option to shoot a scoped (2lb trigger pull)AR style shooting platform(on a rest)via on the bench or in the stand with a rail compared to shooting a 50lb draw bow with mutiple pins and with the release factor----saying they are equal in accuracy ????

Ain't cutting it for me!

The deer pop (thing)they in NY are doing what they did in Pa--------------(want all the deer wacked)
Talk to the Hunters in Bradford County?????
Back in 1993/1994 we had a 3ft blizzards that left heavy snow on the ground all into about mid April(starting with snow around Mid November)------------------that about "wiped out a huge population! Then the coyotes ahve really wacked the deer from (1990 on) and since around 2000(the bear pop)has exploded and are taking many many fawns.

Also during hunting season(even here on a cold morning)how many of you guys wearing the extra clothes(about 20 degrees)standing against a tree in a stand-------------how does that 70lb draw weight feel compared to being outside today at 75degrees in a tee shirt.
Total different deal-----------------------------unless it is just me?????????

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:36 am

Streetstar wrote:Oklahoma not too long ago made them legal across the board, where formerly it was for disabilities only----

I thought about it myself, but after seeing the fps and the ft/lbs of energy difference between a heavier full length arrow and a lighter crossbow bolt, I just decided to stick (no pun intended) with what I've got
-- not to mention crossbows are pretty darn $$$

Same in Texas. They were for upper limb disability only but now they can be used by anyone in bow or rifle season. I always wanted one until they made them legal. They are expensive. I just use my Bear recurve and a handmade longbow. Its usually too hot around here during bow season for me to get too enthused

We still have deer everywhere. The crossbow hunters are not exterminating them. Night time poachers are still the biggest cheaters

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue May 07, 2013 11:49 am

I have to agree with 86'er. I don't think their will be enough people run out and spend big bucks on a crossbow. Those that do are most likely already archery hunters. So what are they gaining? Maybe a few more yards of accuracy? Not going to make any kind of noticable difference in the herd. JMO. I know last time I read the regs, they were legal here but only during rifle season. For some reason I think that may have changes in the last couple years, will have to read up on it.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue May 07, 2013 12:03 pm

madman4570 wrote:
piller wrote:Don't have a crossbow, have hunted with a bow a couple of times. A friend uses a crossbow, and he is no more accurate with it than I am with my compound bow. I realize that is not much to base anything on. I know 86er and it would appear that he has done his homework on this subject. I really don't mind if someone wants to use a crossbow.

You guys must all be Robin Hoods ????????

Can you shoot as well offhand at 75yds with a rifle compared to shooting on the bench????
Accuracy is enhanced with the crossbow (because)it is because of this option of having that resting platform option(even in the stand)as you would with a rifle.

The person who taught me how to shoot a modern bow took me to the archery shop, made sure I was fitted correctly, helped me pick out some high quality arrows wihin my budget (I got aluminum with my first bow, but now use carbon almost exclusively) , a decent sight, release (I used a string release for years ) --- there was a couple day wait while the shop built the bow, -- then we went out to his backyard with my darn near $1k purchase (quite a few years ago) and got it dialed in

--- i'm certainly no Robin Hood, but the guy had me shooting kill shots at 20, 30 and 40 yards easily within 2 hours --- 4 or 5 days later during the 2nd day of archery season, I had my first archery buck
They are darn easy to shoot well when properly set up -- easy enough to put the arrows in right on top of each other at 30 yards

I practiced and practiced with my hunting bow right alongside the guys with the brightly colored 3D target setups, and became pretty proficient , even out to extreme ranges (75 yards or so) at hitting things like pop cans and milk jugs --- but I personally limit a real world shot to 40 yards because of the energy loss over 40 yards

Its also kind of a therapeutic stress level and gives a bit of a low impact workout during an hour long target shooting session
---- that said, I think the modern crossbows are neat too and would love to shoot one

hondo1892 · Post by **hondo1892** » Tue May 07, 2013 12:06 pm

I hunt two states, Kentucky and Michigan. I've been hunting in MI since I was twelve years old and KY since 2004. Kentucky has had crossbow seasons as long as I've been hunting there. Most of October is crossbow season and regular bow season starts Labor day weekend. On my property I don't see bucks come up missing until gun season most years. The real big ones on my place are usually nocturnal even out of season. So the only time anyone has any chance at those are the rut. In other words I haven't seen any "kill off" from early crossbow hunters. What we have had kill offs from is EHD. I believe that's the right set of letters. In MI we have had crossbow season for three or four years now. Our population has been on a decline for sometime before crossboss season started. Mostly because of the big scare over Bovine TB and the DNR made extra everything seasons to reduce population. Now they are trying to build the herd again. But I can't see any big crossbow killings here either. I rarely see guys out on state land where I hunt with crossbows. Most still use their compounds. And as far as using a crossbow only if you are disabled unable to work is BS. I still work and I have tinnis elbow in both elbows. Some days I can't pull a ten pound bow string let alone one large enough to kill a deer. I hunt muzzleloader season with a flint lock and I don't bellyache about inlines. I hunt with a tool I like and don't worry about others. Fighting over what one person uses for hunting is nonsense. It's a way PETA uses to devide and conquer. Desease in both states I hunt have take more deer than any type of bow. My crossbow hasn't made me a long range bow huter either. I just can't get the bolts to go around all that folage.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Tue May 07, 2013 12:33 pm

X bows are legal here for a person that cant pull a bow string because of a disability during bow season and legal for anyone during rifle season. F&G here are pretty tight with not allowing any lighted sights or nocks on a bow. I sometimes wonder if a compound bow is a primitive weapon when it has all the bells and whistles that I see on them these days. danny

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue May 07, 2013 1:53 pm

Yes now legal for all, not just handicap in PA.
I was against them, then I got one.

86er is smack on...

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:03 pm

I almost always agree with Joe-------but proff is in the pudding---------example(my wife)just the plain jane person having the option to shoot a scoped (2lb trigger pull)AR style shooting platform(on a rest)via on the bench or in the stand with a rail compared to shooting a 50lb draw bow with mutiple pins and with the release factor----saying they are equal in accuracy ????

Ain't cutting it for me!
I would shoot next to any guy with a cross bow off hand with my compound and bet I could out shoot him at 50 yards.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:21 pm

harry wrote:I almost always agree with Joe-------but proff is in the pudding---------example(my wife)just the plain jane person having the option to shoot a scoped (2lb trigger pull)AR style shooting platform(on a rest)via on the bench or in the stand with a rail compared to shooting a 50lb draw bow with mutiple pins and with the release factor----saying they are equal in accuracy ????

Ain't cutting it for me!
I would shoot next to any guy with a cross bow off hand with my compound and bet I could out shoot him at 50 yards.

Wanna put money on you shooting offhand and me shooting my BIL's scoped crossbow from a rest at 50yds!
If so, I will take that bet. Even offhand-----?????????

I bought a Pro Bow total outfit also -----------from a Pro Bow Hunter himself(sponsered by Hoyt)it was his own private bow(he was almost same size as myself)and while I was at Neil's Archery,Endicott,Ny had instructions from Him. Ever hear of Jim Despart ???? His bow/his total outfit that was his Pro hunting rig that he just had gotten back from elk hunting with it!(call him and ask if this is true)
He shot for Team Hoyt---(call Neil's and ask him if he remembers Jim selling his bow outfit to Larry)

The Bow was a Hoyt Super Slam Extreme and when my extreme long draw length(I have an 80" reach)my fastest speed at their place with their fastest arrows was 318 fps @ 70lb draw length.-----------------------but,(and I can shoot with about anyone offhand with a gun)my accuracy was so-so

If, you guys are telling me that (any of you)can standing offhand @50yds shoot against anyone(that can halfway shoot a gun)no--make that myself,out shoot a person with a quality crossbow/quality scope from a REST_____________you all are drinking Kool-Aid guys

And,----I will put my money where my mouth is!

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:25 pm

madman4570 wrote:
harry wrote:I almost always agree with Joe-------but proff is in the pudding---------example(my wife)just the plain jane person having the option to shoot a scoped (2lb trigger pull)AR style shooting platform(on a rest)via on the bench or in the stand with a rail compared to shooting a 50lb draw bow with mutiple pins and with the release factor----saying they are equal in accuracy ????

Ain't cutting it for me!
I would shoot next to any guy with a cross bow off hand with my compound and bet I could out shoot him at 50 yards.

Wanna put money on you shooting offhand and me shooting my BIL's scoped crossbow from a rest at 50yds!
If so, I will take that bet. Even offhand-----?????????

I bought a Pro Bow total outfit also -----------from a Pro Bow Hunter himself(sponsered by Hoyt)it was his own private bow(he was almost same size as myself)and while I was at Neil's Archery,Endicott,Ny had instructions from Him. Ever hear of Jim Despart ???? His bow/his total outfit that was his Pro hunting rig that he just had gotten back from elk hunting with it!(call him and ask if this is true)
He shot for Team Hoyt---(call Neil's and ask him if he remembers Jim selling his bow outfit to Larry)

The Bow was a Hoyt Super Slam Extreme and when my extreme long draw length(I have an 80" reach)my fastest speed at their place with their fastest arrows was 318 fps @ 70lb draw length.-----------------------but,(and I can shoot with about anyone offhand with a gun)my accuracy was so-so

If, you guys are telling me that (any of you)can standing offhand @50yds shoot against anyone(that can halfway shoot a gun)out shoot a person with a quality crossbow/quality scope from a REST_____________you all are driking Kool-Aid

And,----I will put my money where my mouth is!

Your the koolaid kid, I said off hand no rest.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:29 pm

harry wrote:
madman4570 wrote:
harry wrote:I almost always agree with Joe-------but proff is in the pudding---------example(my wife)just the plain jane person having the option to shoot a scoped (2lb trigger pull)AR style shooting platform(on a rest)via on the bench or in the stand with a rail compared to shooting a 50lb draw bow with mutiple pins and with the release factor----saying they are equal in accuracy ????

Ain't cutting it for me!
I would shoot next to any guy with a cross bow off hand with my compound and bet I could out shoot him at 50 yards.

Wanna put money on you shooting offhand and me shooting my BIL's scoped crossbow from a rest at 50yds!
If so, I will take that bet. Even offhand-----?????????

I bought a Pro Bow total outfit also -----------from a Pro Bow Hunter himself(sponsered by Hoyt)it was his own private bow(he was almost same size as myself)and while I was at Neil's Archery,Endicott,Ny had instructions from Him. Ever hear of Jim Despart ???? His bow/his total outfit that was his Pro hunting rig that he just had gotten back from elk hunting with it!(call him and ask if this is true)
He shot for Team Hoyt---(call Neil's and ask him if he remembers Jim selling his bow outfit to Larry)

The Bow was a Hoyt Super Slam Extreme and when my extreme long draw length(I have an 80" reach)my fastest speed at their place with their fastest arrows was 318 fps @ 70lb draw length.-----------------------but,(and I can shoot with about anyone offhand with a gun)my accuracy was so-so

If, you guys are telling me that (any of you)can standing offhand @50yds shoot against anyone(that can halfway shoot a gun)out shoot a person with a quality crossbow/quality scope from a REST_____________you all are driking Kool-Aid

And,----I will put my money where my mouth is!
Your the koolaid kid, I said off hand no rest.

No Harry

----------------------you did not read everything above!
I said(again)and (again)----------------the advantage of a scoped crossbow(with a rest)cause that is what you will have in your nice little stand with a front rail when up yonder in the tree!
Reread above stuff-------------------------------please.
What rest do you use for your bow??????????

I admit it---------------------------I am not great with regular bow(hardly ever shoot it) I am decent with a shotgun(skeet etc)---decent??
I am so/so with a handgun----------however,not bragging with a M1 NM or a Colt Match HBAR(offhand @ say 100yds) I wager I will shoot with anyone on here! And still----with a regular bow(offhand)really-----------I kinda probably su##

I am good offhand with either of my Match Colts---------------however------not as good as with my Ruger HB Varmit .22-250 w/Leupold 6.5 X 24 X 50mm scope(on a bench/or on the ground)

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:38 pm

Popcorn anyone

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:39 pm

madman4570 wrote:
harry wrote:
madman4570 wrote:
harry wrote:I almost always agree with Joe-------but proff is in the pudding---------example(my wife)just the plain jane person having the option to shoot a scoped (2lb trigger pull)AR style shooting platform(on a rest)via on the bench or in the stand with a rail compared to shooting a 50lb draw bow with mutiple pins and with the release factor----saying they are equal in accuracy ????

Ain't cutting it for me!
I would shoot next to any guy with a cross bow off hand with my compound and bet I could out shoot him at 50 yards.

Wanna put money on you shooting offhand and me shooting my BIL's scoped crossbow from a rest at 50yds!
If so, I will take that bet. Even offhand-----?????????

I bought a Pro Bow total outfit also -----------from a Pro Bow Hunter himself(sponsered by Hoyt)it was his own private bow(he was almost same size as myself)and while I was at Neil's Archery,Endicott,Ny had instructions from Him. Ever hear of Jim Despart ???? His bow/his total outfit that was his Pro hunting rig that he just had gotten back from elk hunting with it!(call him and ask if this is true)
He shot for Team Hoyt---(call Neil's and ask him if he remembers Jim selling his bow outfit to Larry)

The Bow was a Hoyt Super Slam Extreme and when my extreme long draw length(I have an 80" reach)my fastest speed at their place with their fastest arrows was 318 fps @ 70lb draw length.-----------------------but,(and I can shoot with about anyone offhand with a gun)my accuracy was so-so

If, you guys are telling me that (any of you)can standing offhand @50yds shoot against anyone(that can halfway shoot a gun)out shoot a person with a quality crossbow/quality scope from a REST_____________you all are driking Kool-Aid

And,----I will put my money where my mouth is!
Your the koolaid kid, I said off hand no rest.
No Harry ----------------------you did not read everything above!
I said(again)and (again)----------------the advantage of a scoped crossbow(with a rest)cause that is what you will have in your nice little stand with a front rail when up yonder in the tree!
Reread above stuff-------------------------------please.
What rest do you use for your bow??????????

No you said that you could out shoot a bow shooter with a cross box at 50 yds, if you had a rest, so with out a rest I would like to shoot against you anytime. Oh and don't ask stupid questions, its not becoming of you

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:47 pm

No doubt you can probably beat me bow against bow!(regular compound)
Now--------------------you wanna try offhand open sights rifle@100yds--------??????????????
tell me ever shoot a 476 score out of 500 on a M1 shoot ????????????
I will wager if you are a normal hunter----about 355 would do for ya?
What qualifications do you have????
I will dare say by the time I graduated HS I had a higher ranking!

And I have the trophies/certificates/medals to prove it!
Rifle Club--------------grades 7-12----rank Distinguished Expert! (NRA Sponsered)indoor 50ft and also 200yds------ M1 Garand Match Event (NRA sponsered)

OH----and you can laugh at the 50ft(but to get that qualification)you better about be able to shoot one bullet hole groups on all stages(with your $3000 Anschutz)

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:54 pm

madman4570 wrote:No doubt you can probably beat me bow against bow!(regular compound)
Now--------------------you wanna try offhand open sights rifle@100yds--------??????????????
tell me ever shoot a 476 score out of 500 on a M1 shoot ????????????
I will wager if you are a normal hunter----about 355 would do for ya?
What qualifications do you have????
I will dare say by the time I graduated HS I had a higher ranking!
And I have the trophies/certificates/medals to prove it!
Rifle Club--------------grades 7-12----rank Distinguished Expert! (NRA Sponsered)and 200yds M1 Garand (NRA sponsered)

Never said I could out shoot you with a rifle on paper at a given distance, but bring your cocky rear out to Wyoming and with out a rangefinder I would go up against ya at unknown distances out to 600 yards, one shot.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:58 pm

harry wrote:
madman4570 wrote:No doubt you can probably beat me bow against bow!(regular compound)
Now--------------------you wanna try offhand open sights rifle@100yds--------??????????????
tell me ever shoot a 476 score out of 500 on a M1 shoot ????????????
I will wager if you are a normal hunter----about 355 would do for ya?
What qualifications do you have????
I will dare say by the time I graduated HS I had a higher ranking!
And I have the trophies/certificates/medals to prove it!
Rifle Club--------------grades 7-12----rank Distinguished Expert! (NRA Sponsered)and 200yds M1 Garand (NRA sponsered)
Never said I could out shoot you with a rifle on paper at a given distance, but bring your cocky rear out to Wyoming and with out a rangefinder I would go up against ya at unknown distances out to 600 yards, one shot.

Probably would whip my butt ??????????????
But my Ruger #1 .264 Win Mag with my 6-18X Redfield shoots pretty good now-----and if know I am coming will get practicing on distance guessing! Still might lose though!?????????

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue May 07, 2013 3:00 pm

madman4570 wrote:
harry wrote:
madman4570 wrote:No doubt you can probably beat me bow against bow!(regular compound)
Now--------------------you wanna try offhand open sights rifle@100yds--------??????????????
tell me ever shoot a 476 score out of 500 on a M1 shoot ????????????
I will wager if you are a normal hunter----about 355 would do for ya?
What qualifications do you have????
I will dare say by the time I graduated HS I had a higher ranking!
And I have the trophies/certificates/medals to prove it!
Rifle Club--------------grades 7-12----rank Distinguished Expert! (NRA Sponsered)and 200yds M1 Garand (NRA sponsered)
Never said I could out shoot you with a rifle on paper at a given distance, but bring your cocky rear out to Wyoming and with out a rangefinder I would go up against ya at unknown distances out to 600 yards, one shot.

Probably would whip my butt ??????????????
But my Ruger #1 .264 Win Mag with my 6-18X Redfield shoots pretty good now-----and if know I am coming will get practicing on distance guessing! Still might lose though!?????????

Just don't forget your antelope tags.
But I use a handgun for those.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 3:03 pm

OK

Handguns----------------Nope----------I won't hit em with that either????????????????

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue May 07, 2013 3:28 pm

casastahle wrote:Pacifier anyone

Fixed it for ya!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 07, 2013 3:28 pm

Harry--------------what was funny was my friend and I was going into Neil's to get me a bow and setup.
Mark knew Jim but I did not.Jim was upstairs shooting a 3D Video Hunt.

So, Neil (the owner)said well let's let him try a bunch of different bows.(Neil asked me---what poundage do you plan on using??)
I said-----how about 70lbs

???? Thought it was strange how Neil looked at Mark????

So, they set about 8 different bows up to 70lbs on the downstairs course/range with the chrony!
After about 5 bows-----------------I was straining my a## off just pulling the bow back(the first 5 Neil kept having me hold the pull taking measurements and looking at Mark????

Well-----Jim walked in behind me and here I am straining my butt off pulling that bow.
Jim said----------------you guys got another one????

Neil, came over slapped me on the back and said------fella I just couldn't help myself-----I could tell by the way you were pulling just with your arms(you were going to crash and burn)didn't know then its a lot of across the chest pull etc.

He said,I love it when you big weight lifter types come in and end up like a little bird!
Then Jim said----to Mark-------I have the bow setup for him-------that is how my bow life started!

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue May 07, 2013 3:35 pm

.

Crossbows have long been legal for handicapped hunters only, but were made legal for anybody as of the 2012 deer seasons.

My son (46y.o.), long an archer (Mathews compoumd), bought himself a top-of-the-line ($1300) carbon fiber model (thinkin, why go cheap, then have to upgrade ?) about a year ago.

He easily puts every quarrel/shaft/bolt/arrow/whatever into a 2" bullseye @ 50 yards (he shoots at separate bullseyes so he doesn't ruin arrows) - pretty much what he can do with his Mathews @ 40yds.

I shot it @ 25yds, and I though it was like shooting a recoil-less rifle: I pulled the trigger, and about instantly my target went flying.......... freaking amazing, and nothing like night/day, compared to the older compound bow I used to hunt with ( a Bear Whitetail).

.

wilko · Post by **wilko** » Tue May 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Only for handicapped people at the moment but i believe Ct is looking into allowing it during archery season. I welcome it and would use one...

people are scared of change and frankly the whole discussion about xbows strikes me as childish as i see the same hunters who do not think xbows are primitive enough or something use their fancy inline muzzleloaders with scopes, sabots etc etc during muzzle loader season...

but that is different of course...

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue May 07, 2013 4:32 pm

vancelw wrote:
casastahle wrote:Pacifier anyone
Fixed it for ya!

Thanks

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue May 07, 2013 5:12 pm

If you want to bring your crossbow to Texas I will challenge you with a 2005 Martin Razor X @ 228 fps with 28.5" arrows and 100 grain tips. I won't bet on group size, my bet is that out to 50 yrds I can keep all my arrows in the kill zone right along with you and your crossbow using a rest.

Now, another point is that Archery Business Magazine and Archery Trade Association surveys reveal that 64% of whitetail deer are taken under 25 yards (30% 10 and under- 18% 11-19 yrs- 24% 20-25 yrds), 14% between 26 and 30 yards, 9% at 31-40 yards and 4% at 40-45% and 4 % at 46-50 yards based on 2 archery only seasons per hunter, nationwide that successfully took a deer. 5% reported less than 10 yards or over 50 yards. This hardly gives an advantage to a compound bow over a recurve, less a crossbow over a compound. Good hunters are going to wait until the deer is in range and the shot is comfortable. Many of the compound bow hunters can make shots out to 50 yards in practice - in fact every single archer I practice with at two local ranges can hit the deer target at 50 yards in practice if they choose to have a 50 yd pin or hold over with a 40. So why are the vertical bow hunters NOT shooting so far in actual hunting? Opportunity. They put stands off trails, in funnels and pinch points. The shots are naturally close because they set up to have the deer coming to them - and wait for them to get there. A good hunter is going to do the same with a crossbow. A poor hunter with any weapon is not going to get many opportunities at deer and then they will be unsuccessful (even if a shot is fired) enough that they won't keep at it long. The so called "advantages" of the crossbow are so insignificant in regard to hunter participation and success that it barely makes a dent in deer populations, hunter participation or hunter density. Actually, one factor proven in public and private land studies by the WDMI show that days-in-the-field per hunter utilizing a limited area has more affect on deer movement (and other hunters opportunities) than actually harvesting a deer in the limited area. So, if YOU are correct and crossbow hunters are exponentially lethal compared to vertical bow hunters, you should welcome them so they get their deer and go home quicky, thereby effecting YOUR odds more favorably.

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue May 07, 2013 5:20 pm

Sorry for double posting but I want to add two things:

1) I DO NOT have a crossbow (yet)

2) In 29 years of bow hunting I can think of exactly 2 instances where a crossbow may have made the difference between getting a deer and not. One was when a doe came in from my right-rear. I could not turn enough to shoot because my tree stand strap caught me short of turning enough. I thought if I had a rifle I could have shot left handed and got that deer. I guess same goes for a crossbow. The second instance was when a deer literally appeared right under me and suddenly. I was seated and could not draw to shoot. If I had a rifle- or crossbow I could have shot from the seated position and got that big buck.

I'd like to hear from bow hunters that can report a specific instance where a crossbow would have made the difference between getting a deer and leaving with your tag in you pocket. I don't expect there will be many responses. (This has been hashed out on archery and crossbow forums with few instances reported).

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue May 07, 2013 5:41 pm

Legal in Washington for those with a disability that proscribes a regular bow....

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue May 07, 2013 6:09 pm

[quote="86er" I DO NOT have a crossbow (yet)[/quote]

Excalibur Joe.
'Recurve Simply Perfect'

http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue May 07, 2013 6:12 pm

madman4570 wrote:Personally---------I don't like crossbows-----either use a bow/or use a gun!
Being in a tree stand with a red dotted crossbow capable of dead accurate 75+ yd shots------------------------might as well just serve em a dead deer at the store!

Your first statement makes a pretty good point for why you want no one else to be able to use them !

As the thing about 75 yards you are misinformed . A crossbow is no better then a vertical bow from point blank to whatever you care to shoot . Only thing they have over a vertical bow is that one doesn't have to hold the weight . A crossbow looses energy and velocity just as quickly as a vertical bow . Also now the velocity isn't really that much greater then some of the compund bows available to the vertical crowd now . I think PSE makes a vertical compound thats pushing 370 FPS and to my knowledge the fastest crossbow at the moment is 425 FPS .

Your comments fall very much into the category of those many many people make about variouse aspects of hunting !
The traditional ML hunters think it should be only side hammer roundballs etc . The traditional bow hunters say no compounds , the vertical bow hunters say no crossbows . Some gun hunters may say no bolt actions or no scopes or no whatever .

It all makes no difference, instead of trying to force your will ( and I say that metaphorically) on someone just do your thing and don't worry what others do as long as they stay THE F off your property !

Just because something is made legal doesn't mean you need to take part or DENOUNCE those that do !

Personally I would rather carry a nice new FAST Hoyt compound then the heavier Barnett crossbow . But until I get my shoulder worked on I am s,,,h...i...t outta luck and am forced to use a crossbow .

Now back to the original question crossbows are LEGAL now for ANYONE in both Maryland and Virginia both the states I hunt every year .

bakamorgan · Post by **bakamorgan** » Tue May 07, 2013 8:28 pm

I forget the law excatly in IL, I know if you have hanicapable plates or one of the things you hang in your rear view mirror you can use a crossbow to hunt. My now passed uncle used it and got a deer or two. My dad can use it since hes hes hanicapable...they both prefered to use a shotgun tho. If they want to get a few more deer for the season or were unable to fill their gun tags they get it out.

I think the law is changing and I heard that if your over the age of 60/55 you can use a crossbow also. Without having to be handicapped. Not 100% sure on the age limit here tho. I just know its somewhere in the 60s +/- 5 years.

They liked it since they were not able to pull back the string on there bow but they just got a crack assist for the corsbow and allowed them to hunt more.

Personally I could careless who uses what to hunt what so long as it's not for trophy hunting. I'm not a big fan of the people who go hunting for a big rack and waste the deer meat.