OT-Are today's criminals more lethal, or is it just

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:04 pm

media sensationalism.

The recent news story about the woman killed mid 911 call has me thinking about this. It seems like increasingly, criminals kill their victims as a matter of course during what would otherwise be relatively minor crimes. Was it always this way? I know things were pretty brutal during the frontier days, so maybe the standard should be the mid 1950s to the present.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:06 pm

Example?

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:10 pm

I don't know. Maybe I've just been watching too much "gangland" on the History Channel.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:12 pm

Media sensationalisim.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:24 pm

No Jason, I don't think it's media sensation. I had this discussion years ago with a buddy of mine when I was a LEO. Many years ago someone would rob you and run off to make their get a way. Even back in the 70's I noticed a trend towards scumbags that weren't satisfied to just rob. They want to commit murder as well for no apparent reason. I think the situation has gotten worse since then. There seems to be more hate in people today.

donw · Post by **donw** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:00 pm

if it had any REAL influence, i don't know and i doubt there is any documented proof of the effectiveness but as many of you will recall, LEO's had the right to shoot a "fleeing felon" at one time and even the average citizen had the right to shoot in self-defense within their own household boundaries.

i remember at least one felon being shot by police when he fled....

as far as i know, it's now against the law in most instances to use lethal force to defend yourself and LEO's may not shoot a "fleeing felon"

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:24 pm

LEO's can but the laws vary from state to state. Most can shoot a fleeing felon if he/she poses a serious and immediate threat to civilians. An example would be a murderer, rapist or violent armed suspect running towards an inhabited area where there is a liklehood of an innocent person being harmed.
Also despite what the rumors are , a homeowner can shoot an intruder to protect himself or his family from harm. The line is drawn when the suspect is no longer an immediate threat. Like if you point your gun and he runs away...game over, you just can't shoot him in the back, no matter if he deserves it or not.
Also I agree criminals are more apt to kill these days. I don't know why, some say violent video games make them think killing is no big deal. I don't know if it's true or not. I think it may be as simple as "not being raised right'.
Much of the killings are extremely cowardly. I've been to numerous where a gangster shoots into a party from a car and keeps going. Never knew the victim, just for thrills or to prove ...something. Sad.

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:34 pm

Florida
Castle Doctrine:

It's different Here:

http://www.gunlaws.com/FloridaCastleDoctrine.htm

wm · Post by wm » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:35 pm

I hate to sound like a Luddite or something but I believe popular media and violent games have desenistized people including (or particularly) the criminally inclined.

Back in college I had a psych professor that predicted that the trends in soceity (break up of family unit, lowered self esteem due to stimulation, illegitmate births, etc) would produce much more socio-paths than previous generations.

At the time I thought he was over reacting but now ...................

Wm

4t5 · Post by **4t5** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:55 pm

I don't know, but wasn't it BILLY THE KID who once shot a man for snoring?

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:08 pm

That would be John Wesly Hardin in a boarding house in El Paso, Texas

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:25 pm

A lot of interesting ideas, but I'll go with the media sensationalism response, combined with a trend toward increasingly urban populations.

Even rats will become aggressive and begin to cannibalize each other when forced to live in uncomfortable close proximity.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:27 pm

donw wrote:..as many of you will recall, LEO's had the right to shoot a "fleeing felon" at one time and even the average citizen had the right to shoot in self-defense within their own household boundaries.

Just to nitpick, I'd not say 'even the average citizen' because WE have if anything a more inherent right to self-preservation than those who have the thankless job of laying their life on the line for us (LEO's).

Big Bore 94 · Post by **Big Bore 94** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:07 pm

I worked a few years for the circut court. We all had theories. The one that kept sounding correct. Was that the violence took a great jump at the begining of crack cocaine. Then the crack babies had crack babies that had crack babies. These crack types do not care about even themselves. Much less you. In addition the effects of this drug and a few others. Causes the addict to go from their normal to a complete blow-up at the drop of a hat. Then there is the money factor. The amount of money alone makes many problems that are easy to figure out. Then also someone new always wants to be the kingpin. Rememeber about 78% of all murders in the good ol' USA are gang related. Then throw in the average time a felon serves. That does get caught and gets our certain, swift and sure punishment.....Averge time about five years for murdering another human. It will take many a good person to correct this. Or just do what China did. They had the worlds worst drug problem and quickly eliminated it by chopping off all the dope heads.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:18 pm

It sure seems as though more criminals end their crime in a more violent nature, but I wonder if anybody actually did as # per thousand thing. More people nowadays compared to the '50's, the 30's and so on. 'Course we also have improved technology that makes one getting caught that much easier, that could cause the criminal mind to add the fatalist bent to robberies, rape, and so on. Then again, Bonnie and Clyde sure didn't seem to have any aprehension in taking out their targets.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:14 pm

Some of you here may not like what I have to say, but I have always called a spade a spade.

In rural or surburban "white" areas I really don't think a lot has changed. There has always been a percentage of the population that is just wired wrong and these people kill because well, they are screwed up.

Its a proven fact that most murders are commited by people of sub-average intelligence because they get frustrated and can't think of another way out of a dispute. Add to the fact they think they will get away with it. They don't realize most cops are smarter then they are.

This brings us to the urban areas. Mass congestion, drugs, poverty, no family unit and the empowerment by liberals is causing a real murder capital in every major city. I live 30 miles from Philly and there are murders everyday. Personal friends who are cops tell me the news only reports about 5% of the shootings that occur. West Philly and North Philly are "no mans land" for anybody. (including cops) Its total lawlessness. But........the news does not want everyone to know just how bad things really are.

So, to answer your question, no, things are about the same in rural and surburban areas. The inner cities make El Paso, Texas of the 1870's look like Shangri-La.-----------------Sixgun

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:26 am

Sixgun wrote:Some of you here may not like what I have to say, but I have always called a spade a spade.-----Sixgun

I always like hearing your side of the topic Sixgun. It never fails to be honest.

On the topic: I don't care much for the media. I also think that the dumbing/numbing of America(the greatest county in the world) has a hand in violence. I have the urge to smack people up-side-the-head on a few occasions, but I don't. I can spell it out in two simple terms:

Self-control
Self-respect

Two things the goverment can never nor will ever have the ability to give anybody.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:53 am

[quote="AndrewOn the topic: I don't care much for the media. [/quote]

Mark Twain said, "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you're misinformed."

The irresponsible and biased "news" media is nothing new.

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:43 am

Some of the stuff I hear from my co-workers, who have worked some of the home invasions committed by gangs, is not fit to print where kids can read it. But, the atrocities are no worse than some stuff I have read in history books. There is an arms race going on among some bad guys, I believe, and technology helps them, too; cell phones and FM two-way radios enable a group to coordinate their movements, closing in on a victim. Not long ago I took a report of a robbery with 5+ bad guys closing in on the intended victim from two directions, some in a Suburban firing a shotgun and some on foot firing at least one pistol, in front of numerous witnesses, in a "nice" part of town where I lived from 1998-2001, with shots fired right next door to a store where I still shop often. So, are bad guys getting worse? Well, overall, I would say not, but the potential for human evil has always been with us, and we ignore that potential at our peril. One indicator of evil, though, is the number of police officers killed nationwide in a year. I hope the carnage of 2007 proves to be a fluke; 2007 was a bad year for those who wear the badge.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:08 am

I think things peaked in the 80's. I lived in Chicago then and there were 800 murders per year, 900 in LA and 1200 in New York.

Last year I think LA came in at about 400. So I don't think things are getting worse. I think it has something to do with tougher enforcement, 3 strikes, keeping the criminals off the streets better.

That was the time when crack was new, I remember it was tough living in Chicago then. I got robbed at gunpoint and it was not a great experience, believe me. But they let me live. The year I left Chicago there was a murder where a man cut open a pregnant woman, gave the baby to his girlfriend, and let the woman die on her own.

I think you can credit Rush Limbaugh for turning it all around. With him making fun of the liberals and connecting their policies to the problems, things started changing. Before that, nobody knew what was happening, and Rush made it plain as day. May sound silly, but I think that was it.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:11 am

sobenk wrote:
Last year I think LA came in at about 400. So I don't think things are getting worse. I think it has something to do with tougher enforcement, 3 strikes, keeping the criminals off the streets better.

I think you can credit Rush Limbaugh for turning it all around. With him making fun of the liberals and connecting their policies to the problems, things started changing. Before that, nobody knew what was happening, and Rush made it plain as day. May sound silly, but I think that was it.

Andrew--Thank you. If the politicians were honest in their talk, instead of worrying who they were going to alianate, we would a lot less headaches. Its probably why I get called an AH from time to time but great! Everybody should call a spade a spade!

Sobenk--You say things are not getting worse and to a point you are right. They are not getting any worse than they were about 20 years ago, but compared to the beginning of our history on up to the mid-sixties or so, society has drastically changed To further quote you, you suggested Rush had a lot to do with it and I 100% agree. He has allowed many people in this country to speak their mind as he was the first to "get up there and tell it like it is". In my book, Rush is a very fine dude.

People I talk to ask me, "How come so many states are allowing their citizens to carry guns when for so many years, it was looked down on and strictly curtailed? I'll tell you why. It because when you look at the news, you see minorities killing people like they were flies. You see minorities demanding this 'n that, stealing, carjacking, forming wolf packs, rioting (rodney king) etc. The politicians realized that the last thing they needed on their hands was a race war. So they decided that they had better give us something or as the decent folk were gonna take things in their own hands as we all value life and liberty in a different way than a lot (NOT ALL) of minorities do. We "police our own" where in the other cultures, you are looked "up upon" if you kill a cop or go to jail.

As we speak, I work with a guy (white guy) who is a total thing. He cheats on his wife, uses drugs, finds every excuse at work not to do any work, etc., etc. The rest of us normal guys totally ostracized him. We stopped talking to him, told him to get away if he entered a group bs session, and basically acted like he was not even there. I know it bothers him but hey, it is what it is and we will not associate with him. On the other hand, some of the minorities I work with are just like this white guy and they pat each other on the back, supporting that type of behavior.

Thats why we have "white flight" from the cities and the politicians are gonna have a handful one day.-------------Sixgun

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:31 am

Unfortunately you are right in many ways Sixgun. It is a shame but getting back to the topic.

Many people in this nation are looking for a single cause of the ills of society like a single germ for a cold. The sad truth is that all of the causes mentioned here all contribute to the problem.

I will add one more that wasn't touched upon. Rap music and the so-called "hip hop" culture. I don't care what anyone says, it promotes a violent and degenerate lifestyle. I work at a drug rehab for teenage boys and they listen to that stuff all the time. I hear the same lyrics over and over again and they all have a very egocentric theme. All about me and what can pleasure me without doing any work. All about image and how many girls you can have your way with, etc.

Feel free to disagree.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:43 am

More violent. No respect for the sanctity of human life. Part of it is the stuff that passes for entertainment today - movies, TV, video games. Most of it - 99% - is pi$$-poor parenting. Society's acceptance and making excuses is also to blame.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:00 am

I like to blame it on too many sources telling people why they should feel sorry
for themselves.

Special interest groups want to help, but they are doing more damage than they
can possibly comprehend.

No one is "owed" anything that isn't in the Bill of Rights which is there to give
somewhat of an even starting point to begin with. Once your born, your future
is up to you.

The choices you make determine the future you have to enjoy. Lord knows I've
made some bad decisions but overall I'm happy.

I've heard of lowborn people rising to greatness and vise versa. Sometimes
things aren't always fair, other people get ahead for different reasons, some
by cheating some by hard work.

The ability to keep trying and not stop when confronted with an obstacle is
what helps the most. If you are trying for a goal and someone else gets it
then you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Learn from this experience
and apply it to your future efforts.

OR............. We could whine to the "state" to make everything fair, and
we have all seen a taste of what they consider fair.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:44 pm

But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.
2 Timothy 3:1-5

Dastook · Post by **Dastook** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:48 pm

I may be wrong cause the way stats can be misrepresented but the overall violent crime rate has steadly fallen since the 70's all the way to today. This is of course after the population figures and so forth are all factored in. By the way, if these figures are correct I would be surprised. I do fully agree with you all about the fall of modern society. I know the chief of police in Charlotte, NC changed the way they "calculate" the crimes to make his job performance look better. Like car theft not being grand theft and trying to reduce it to a misdemenor. I know it, I can't spell worth stuff. I'm a subject of the government schools.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:30 pm

Well sixgun that sounds like a PAT answer but I agree with Ganjiro. This is the last days and it will definately get worse before it gets better. I will say this though... If you take away all the drug related killings in the country it is still like rural america of the past. The last statistics I have heard about though is that Major crime is down in every state that has a Shall Issue Concealed Carry. I think that speaks for itself. I dont care what color you think is the problem I have arrested people of every color for every crime. We are all sinners before God.

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:41 pm

505stevec wrote:If you take away all the drug related killings in the country it is still like rural America of the past.

Interesting hypothesis, that. I actually wonder how many murders have been "caused" by our drug laws.

scott

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:41 am

RSY wrote:
505stevec wrote:If you take away all the drug related killings in the country it is still like rural America of the past.
Interesting hypothesis, that. I actually wonder how many murders have been "caused" by our drug laws.

scott

You mean like how the LAST attempt at "Prohibition" gave the Mob enough clout to run a couple of major cities... and gave us the '32 NFA?

Fie on "prohibitions"of all types.

I was reading an article in the Chicago Tribune that was discussing that, as a percentage of population, violent crime - homicides in particular - has been going DOWN in the aggregate since 1970, and especially rapidly in Shall Issue States.

OJ · Post by OJ » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:04 pm

Some years back - 5 - 10 years ago, a prisoner in Denver named Fears, as I recall, hired a hit man to kill a couple of guys scheduled to testify against him in an upcoming trial. The hit man went to the house where the witnesses lived and did kill two of the three men there. The one that lived then gave testimony at the trial of Fears for hiring a hit man to commit murder and Fears was found guilty.

Now, you might think if Fears hired a hit man to commit multiple murders for him to prevent testimony that would probably lead to a guilty verdict, he must have been charged with some serious capital crime.

Not so. Fears was only charged with simple burglary.

When the hearing for what the penalty Fears should have for committing murder by hire, he came into the courtroom in tears - crying he had found Jesus while in the slammer and had repented his evil ways. He convinced the jury and, while I don't remember what he got, it was astonishingly not appropriate for his crimes. IIRC, it wasn't even life and certainly not the death penalty he richly deserved.

Obviously, he was a sociopath - those types have no conscience at all, medically speaking - and the world would have been a much better place without him. Jeff Cooper estimated about 1% of our population fits that diagnosis and, from a lifetime in medicine (including personal family experience), I conclude he may even be a little low. They are born that way and no amount of "corrective" treatment will ever change their actions becauuse, without conscience, they really don't recognize what they are doing is wrong.

My point is that there have always been those who will kill for any excuse and don't hesitate to do so - and our justice system does very little to influence their actions.

budliteguy · Post by **budliteguy** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:18 am

If you want to see what crimes are going on in Charlotte NC go to
http://www.crimeincharlotte.com
It list all the crimes that occur here during the week. You will be surprized. If you come to Charlotte come "packing" you may need it.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:11 am

The last time I considered this topic was almost 12 or 13 years ago. I'll use car theft as an example. As an LEO in CA, I don't recall a single instance of a car-jacking up thru 1990. Surely there were, but they didn't get the hype, nor were they common as they were from about then forward.

My pet theory follows: Step one is that with more lenient prosecutors, juries and judges (notice I didn't use the "L" word), beginning in the '70s and '80s fewer 1st time offenders found themselves in jail.

Step 2, thus, 1st time offenders are deprived of their most experienced and most professional teaching staff: Lifers and other repeat offenders that have measured some success in their chosen field. (Remember, most criminals that resort to violence did not complete the 12th grade, so deductive reasoning is in short supply; therefor a car thief in jail who's stolen X cars is more knowledgeable that the punk that just tried to steal his first and got caught).

So, instead of spending 6 months to a year behind bars learning from his elders, the young punk gets a suspended sentence, probation and community service. He still has a desire to engage in unlawful activity, but lacks the requisite skills to do it without contact with the car owner. The car thief is almost forced into a direct confrontation with a car owner in order to obtain his goal. He lacks the contacts to obtain master keys, is completely clueless about how to hotwire, knows what a slim-jim is, but would rather spend his money on a gat! Now, there's power!

The 1st car-jacker I ever had contact with was in about 1991-'92; on the way to jail I asked why he chose that time and place, his answer was, "I didn't know there was any PO-LICE in Rockwall County on Sunday." It was his 3rd bust, first car theft, and when asked why he 'jacked the car; replied, "I don't know no other way! My 'cuz tol' me it worked good!"

Then as others have said, you add crack into the mix, highly unpredictable in both it's effect as a high and on the psyche. Now, add the beginnings of backlash in the '90s with passage of "3 strikes and you're out" laws, you have an incentive to eliminate eyewitness testimony.

The entire question has such a myriad of causes, I don't believe that any solution is going to be effective. We'll (as a society) continue to put our band-aids on the symptoms, but for a cure, we'll have to await the next flood.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:29 am

Griff wrote:
My pet theory follows: Step one is that with more lenient prosecutors, juries and judges (notice I didn't use the "L" word), beginning in the '70s and '80s fewer 1st time offenders found themselves in jail.

"Because sentence against a bad work has not been executed speedily, that is why the heart of the sons of men has become fully set in them to do bad"
Ecclesiastes 8:11

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:32 am

GANJIRO wrote:
Griff wrote: My pet theory follows: Step one is that with more lenient prosecutors, juries and judges (notice I didn't use the "L" word), beginning in the '70s and '80s fewer 1st time offenders found themselves in jail.
"Because sentence against a bad work has not been executed speedily, that is why the heart of the sons of men has become fully set in them to do bad"
Ecclesiastes 8:11

Yea, I know... and from there my theory goes downhill... rapidly!

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:14 am

Political correctness !
Can't blame the perp, blame society .

Down Hill ever since....

In Florida and Indiana the is a 1 strike and your out law ,
That is for home burglary.
By state law, You are allowed to shoot the perp..