Hunting in the west question

foxtrapper · Post by **foxtrapper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:15 am

Interesting topic from another forum. I understand that cattlemen are able to lease BLM land for grazing rights for their cattle. What is unclear to me is does their lease agreement give them the right to determine who is able to access the leased property. The rancher on the other forum described hunters who hunted on his leased property as cattle killers, sign shooting drunks who left an unholy mess. He also went as far as saying that some harm would become the individuals who he caught on his leased land. Sounds more like a ALF or PETA member. Is this what goes on out west? I have hunted in Wyoming, New Mexico and Colorado but always used a outfitter, so this is news to me. Anybody know the laws with experience that could chime in.

morgan in nm · Post by **morgan in nm** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:31 am

I don't know the exact laws per-say but I have seen that happen here in New Mexico several times. The problem is that they have NO right to dissallow hunters during a legal hunt access to the BLM land. If an individual who leases BLM land refuses to allow you, you can report them to the BLM and they will lose their lease. However, you must be careful because so many have threatened to shoot hunters on-sight and I always thought that it wasn't worth a gun battle.

Just my 2 cents worth from experience.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:14 pm

We have ranchers here that graze their cattle on both U. S. Forest and BLM land and yes, you can hunt on that land when the cattle are grazing. However, most grazing on public land (USFS & BLM) is done in the off-hunting months (spring and summer) and the cattle don't normally interfer with hunting.

One of the problems that arises is that there are always some punk-*** people that shoot cattle on those lands (wild horses too) just for the heck of it and for the fun of it. It's a big problem and understandably, the ranchers get really upset over it. If someone gets caught shooting cattle/horses here it's good for about 2-years in the pokey but they normally suffer a good beating on the way to the Sheriff.

We still have big cattle drives here where the ranchers drive the cattle down local roads.

Here's a picture of a cattle drive coming down our road last year.

And here they are as they go past my driveway.

Here anyway, it's not the ranchers that are the problem. It's the dumba$$$es that are harassing the cattle/horses and some uninformed city slickers that come here.

As a point of interest, the USFS and the BLM can close a grazing area to all but those who have grazing permits and when ranchers are having problems with their cattle being shot the USFS and BLM will close down a grazing area in a heart beat.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:36 pm

My understanding is the same as Modoc Ed's.

As a younger patrol deputy I was dispatched to contact a local rancher at a remote location. When I arrived he proceeded to explain to me about a bunch of punk kids who'd entered the land he was leasing from the BLM or DNR and rumor was they were going to have a concert. He told me the people trespassing had a right to the land but legally they couldn't drive off of established roads and couldn't camp more than a certain amount of time.

There was probably fifty cars with more arriving every minute. Fresh beer cans were already littering the area. I could see the writing on the wall and I booted everyone out. No more problem.

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:19 pm

My family has leased BLM & Forest Service lands for grazing cattle. Its far less capital investment than purchasing.

According to the BLM lease, we could determine access points but not halt access. According to the Forest Service lease, we had to remove all our cattle prior to the hunting season.

TR

foxtrapper · Post by **foxtrapper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:23 pm

I agree that shooting someones cattle or wild horses should go to jail. But the message I got from some of the posts are that you better have permission from the rancher to be on the BLM land that he leases. Or else. Isn't it up to the authorities to police the land not the rancher. Why should you even have to deal with a rancher if your there legally hunting during hunting season . It's getting to the point that if you can't or don't want to hire a outfitter hunting for the average guy will be a thing of the past. Try to get kids evolved is the future for our sport, how can you do that if you have to pay to hunt . I had to laugh at one of the TV hunt shows. The hunter had his family with him on a elk/ moose hunt. Big speech at the end of the show about how we have to get the children involved to save our sport. The hunt according to the website was 6-7 thousand $'s per person without airfare. Yea get the kids involved

So that leaves public land with ranchers that want to harass hunters due to some that break the rules. By the way maybe we should ban guns because some people use them in a crime

Rant over. Thanks fer listening

Jayhawker · Post by **Jayhawker** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:32 pm

I hear some of the ranchers still don't care much for free-grazers either.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:39 pm

Another thing we have in our area is something called "Free Range".

If for some reason a rancher's cattle get off his land they can graze wherever they want. The only legal way to keep those cattle off your property is to fence your property.

Not long ago there was a man and woman who moved here and bought several acres (about 50 I think). Anyway they built a home, planted all kinds of plants and vegetable, etc. and were fat, dumb, and happy with life in general. Then one morning the wife got up and there were a bunch (I mean a bunch) of cattle trampling all her plants, veggies, etc.. They had broken through the fence of the neighboring ranch and were exploring the theory that "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". The woman called the rancher and demanded that he get his cattle off her property "right now". The rancher replied that he would when he could get around to it. That really POed the woman and she called the Sheriff. He sent a deputy out and the deputy told her, Modoc County is Free Range and that the only way she could keep the cattle off her property was to build a fence around her property. The deputy left and the woman decided to take things into her own hands so she got in her car and started driving at the cattle trying to get them off her property. BIG MISTAKE!!!!! She ran into a few of them and a couple of them got scared and charged her car repeatedly and totaled it. One of the cows she ran into was a stud bull worth several thousand dollars and eventually the bull had to be put down.

This time the rancher called the Sheriff and the deputy came back out and arrested the woman. She got charged with and tried for a felony and spent 60-days in jail with probation on top of that. Then she got sued by the rancher and had to pay him several thousand dollars for the bull and some other cattle that were damaged.

The woman tried to sue for damages for her car but the closing words of the judge who dismissed the case were, Free Range and that she didn't have a leg to stand on.

Of course ranchers keep their property fenced but things do happen. Several times a year people hit cattle on the roads and they have no recourse for damage to their vehicles because of Free Range.

"Free Range" -- It's a concept city slickers can't get their heads around.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:53 pm

Jayhawker wrote:I hear some of the ranchers still don't care much for free-grazers either.

You've been watching too much TV and watching too many movies (Open Range).

Now-a-days, in order for a rancher to graze his cattle on public land, he has to get a grazing permint from the agency that has jurisdiction on the land (i.e., USFS, BLM, etc.). Once he has the permit, nobody else can graze on that land.

Almost all privately owned land is fenced thereby excluding anyone who would try "free grazing". That land that isn't fenced (mostly big planting operations for alphalfa, grain, hay, etc.) are posted once again precluding "free grazing".

cowboykell · Post by **cowboykell** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:37 pm

At $1.35 per AMU it is just about free grazing when I'm pay $18.00 per AMU for private grazing. AMU is animal per month unit...usually a cow and calf. A very unfair system of granting grazing rights.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:20 pm

cowboykell wrote:At $1.35 per AMU it is just about free grazing when I'm pay $18.00 per AMU for private grazing. AMU is animal per month unit...usually a cow and calf. A very unfair system of granting grazing rights.

Don't know of any 1.35 aum's but at the price for most of the blm and forest service , and the restrictions , limited number of acres per animal and other things a person has to deal with the private leases end up being pretty close in the end.
Plus you don't have the problem on private leases of some twit driving over the grass and thru the rocks to park on top of a hill with agood vantage point, that proudly announces he's a taxpayer and by god has more business being on that land than you do,

and wil do any darn thing he sees fit while he's there.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:43 pm

Right with ya on that Don. It's not a free lunch for those that graze on public lands. Both the USFS and BLM make those that graze jump through many many hoops.

There's only two towing services in our local area. When the ranchers are grazing their cattle on public land and some "yahoo" does what you describe or otherwise behaves badly, should they break down both of the tow services refuse to tow them. Same goes for jump starts, gas delivery, etc.. The closest tow truck that will respond comes out of Susanvile, CA which is 100-miles away. Now that's an expensive tow because they have to pay for the tow truck's road time coming and for the tow on top of that.

Both tow services are with garages that do a lot of work for the local farmers and ranchers. That's why they don't respond.

City folk. They provide a lot of humor for us old country guys.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:55 pm

I just get sick to death of starting around the middle of August when the scouting for archery season starts, of having to start spending part of my time as trash service, beercans, dirty diapers, slurpy cups, and the list goes on, but they're by god tax payers.......

I told Carol last fall that if the folks in the communities I travel thru to go hunt real elk look at folks like us traveling thru the way we have come to view folks that come here to hunt, I'm not sure I want to hunt anymore.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:17 pm

Wait till the bow hunters start using the stock for practice with blunts it takes 1 or more months for the bloodshot to disolve I had a calf die and opened it up and it was bloodshot from the diaphram to the neck, they must of hit it several times. When you consider the cost of putting up drift fences in the spring and dropping them in the fall devolping water sources and fencing reparian areas and assumeing all losses due to wild animals and people at 1.35 cow/calf pair. The private land owner has to provide water and fencing for the animals and consider taxes, liability insurance and on top of it all a profit it works out to the same price give or take a dollar. danny

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:30 am

Here is my 2 cents. There is plenty of hunting land to be had out West as some call it. This is my advise. Call in to the state and get local topo maps. You can even get the state book maps at Wally World. These will tell you what land is public and what is BLM and so on. Carry these with you atall times. Very good and most of the time are up to date. I have used these a number of times to prove a rancher or land owner wrong. I have had a few that claim BLM as their own and I could not hunt it. I tell them to call the sheriff and he can decide who owns it. That ususally works in my favor. Most of the ranchers I have delt with in South Dakota and Colorado are great people and willing to help hunters out. These are the people that you need to make friends with. They live out there and know where the animals are. I will go out of my way to stop and help out or offer a cup of coffee. I will pull on the side of the road and walk out to their tractor. I have even traded weekend work for hunting these lands. I am straight forward and say I am just a guy looking for a place to hunt. If you act cocky, lie, or are disrespectful, for get it.

With public land, there is lots of it. The problem you may have is doing the research. You really need to get out and walk in the off season. You need to find out where the locals hunt, not the out of state hunters. Knowing what I know now, I will never use a outfitter for Mule deer and White tail. There is no need.

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:51 am

I've had cattle shot by 'hunters'. One in antelope season! Big old black baldy cow drilled between the eyes. I've had fence cut because there was no 4 wheeler road close, gates left open, trash left all over, etc. The most interesting one was my neighbors who came off their forrest svc lease with 3 calves sporting arrows in them.
I love to hunt too. I wish some bad apples would quit givin everybody a black eye.
Wy is a 'fence out state'. If cattle are getting on private property and you don't want them, fence them out.
No one can keep you off BLM, state or Forest Service sections. I do know of some who tried. I know of more people who were on private, telling the owner that they were on BLM or Forest Service ground.
I wouldn't mind getting one of those Forest service leases. It's a hell of a bunch cheaper than what I'm paying also. Some years the BLM is worth it but not always. Lot's of open cows and thin calves in the dry years while my cows to good on irrigated pasture.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:35 am

Most (90%) of the people that use public lands are good, responsible people. It's the other 10% that cause problems for the rest of us.

One thing that's discouraging to me is coming up on a spot where "shooters" have set up a shooting area and blasted away at cans, bottles, buckets, etc. and then left the mess along with their spent shells littering the area. Gives all shooters a bad name and is one reason that USFS, BLM, and State Rangers are getting more and more intolerant of us and not cutting any slack to us.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:39 am

If it were me I'd approach the rancher and give him my contact info. Then I'd allow as I'd keep gates as I found them, watch out for his stock, and report any problems. I'd have some garbage bags in the truck just in case and I'd be willing to sit there and watch and wait for rancher and or the law to show up if something was amiss. I once helped stack hay bales for an hour just to talk to a farmer. He got dressed quail now and then, too.

We have both situations here in VA. One county you have to control (fence in) your stock and in the other you have to fence out everyone else's stock. Some farms stretch across a county line. Makes for some interesting conversations...