OT-When would you use deadly force?

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:14 pm

The carry at home topic got me to wondering, so I will ask the question:

You are stopped by a mugger relatively close to a populated area (storefront, etc.) and he demands your cash. Say he is armed with a knife and appears scared, nervous, etc. You don't get that cold and deadly feeling but just the impression of someone wanting to get your money and run. You are close to a populated area so it is less likely that he will want to engage in a struggle which would attract attention.

What would you do?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:20 pm

tell the idjit not to bring a knife to a gunfight.

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:26 pm

If I truly thought He would not do any harm I would give some money (I carry cash in several spots) but not keep to far from my ccw just in case things got real bad.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:26 pm

Draw down and watch him run like a rabbit. If he dont run he will wish he did.

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:27 pm

Griff wrote:tell the idjit not to bring a knife to a gunfight.

I just KNEW someone was going to say that!!

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:30 pm

I don't carry cash or heat, so I have no idea what I would do. I guess a bare-handed beating would be in order.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:30 pm

A guy only needs to make the mistake of thinking that some idiot with a weapon won't, or doesn't want to, hurt anyone one time to learn a valuable lesson, and that is that a coward will do you harm just to prove to himself that he can.

I made the mistake. Once. A stab wound in the back, a collapsed lung, and a few days in the hospital gives a fellow time to thnk on such things. I wasn't a victim, I was careless.

I'll use whatever I have as many times as I have to, until the scumbag stops moving.

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:31 pm

Probably kick the shi* out of him.

I doubt he'd expect that.

Steve Collins · Post by **Steve Collins** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:32 pm

Don't decide by what you THINK he'll do; decide by what he COULD do. Me, I'm getting off the X and going to guns! A lot of bad guys will hurt you just because they can; why give him any extra time to think about it?

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:36 pm

+1 for Griff.

C'mon...is this for real? "You are close to a populated area so it is less likely that he will want to engage in a struggle which would attract attention." Where do you think most fatal confrontations occur?

You want me to "feel" the situation out and address his social needs?

"Say he is armed with a knife and appears scared, nervous, etc. You don't get that cold and deadly feeling but just the impression of someone wanting to get your money and run."

Now I am supposed to magically know what his intent is?

"You don't get that cold and deadly feeling..." WELL YOU BETTER BY GOD! The man just pulled a KNIFE on you.

His actions are:

#1 Pull a KNIFE.
#2 Demand your property.
Just because he #3 appears scared and nervous I'm supposed to cower and give him my money?

What would happen next is:

#1 I'd either rip his head off bare handed... if I couldn't get to my gun.
#2 Shoot him until he was no longer a threat and call the coroner.

No bravado...no bullscat one liners. Just violence of action. You better have a propensity for violence when faced with a situation like that if you want to live. You'd better get mad and angry that this piece of filth has just threatened your life...and not flinch while taking his.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:37 pm

I like what Griff said, however, I know a Marine (Decorated Nam Vet) who this happened too! In a Bar, he was attacked by a Man with a Knife. My Marine friend took the knife away and Fed it to him....My Marine friend got 10 years for Manslaughter

The judge told him that once he disarmed the Man, there was no need to kill him!!

Makes a feller think about shooting a fella with a knife...perhaps pulling your gun would make the fella run? Perhaps not? If you shot him, would you go to prison? Hard to say these days...

I'd rather face 6 Jurors VS. 6 Pall Bearers I reckon...

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:38 pm

I have actually thought a good deal about this subject.

I have been faced with such a situation in the Varsity parking lot in Atlanta, GA. I gave the guy the money.

Had another situation which was personal in nature and, though armed and more than capable of defending myself, I let a guy hit me and it was over.

My father was from the really old school. He taught me that once you point a weapon at a person...kill him....no threating, no hesitation. His idea was that once you committed to the threat and/or use of deadly force, then your life is forfeit. The other person or any bystander, including law enforcement, has the absolute right and/or obligation to cut you down. Therefore, unless you are ready and willing to follow through, then don't make the threat....if you are ready and willing to follow through, then no reason to hesitate.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:38 pm

JReed wrote:Draw down and watch him run like a rabbit. If he dont run he will wish he did.

+1

The knife is still a deadly weapon, and though he may not appear to want to actually use it against you, what about his next target, or next one, or... well, you get the point. Pull your piece, and the least that will happen is he'll fill his drawers, run away as fast as possible, and probably think long and hard about changing "professions".

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:40 pm

I was robbed at knife point in sacramento 11 years ago. I saw the welts on his arms and knew he was a herrion junkie, so I reached OVER my Colt python and gave him $20 I told him that was all he was getting and the name of a minister in the area who gives help to these type of people. About a year later I heard from the minister that the young man had an apartment and a job at a tire shop he had been clean for 6 months

This whole story would have came out very differently if I would had 10 ringed him with a 125 grain JHP. I Am greatful I did what I did and It left at that.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:41 pm

One night while walking the dog (back when we still had one) we were on a main avenue that is deserted for the most part that time of night. Up ahead I saw a guy that "didn't fit" - so I had my wife cross over so that I'd be between her and him, and I moved my cane to the off hand as well. He came up, but I was fixed on his face. He had something in his hand, about a foot or more long, but I watched his face. He asked if I could "spare a coin" and I told him "No sir, I give money to no one." He moved on down the street and when he was out of earshot my wife said "Did you see that KNIFE?" well, yeah, I had seen it - in a way, but by focusing in on his face I was telling him "Try it. You won't like it." It helps being bigger than the average joe down here, but most of all it's the awareness. I saw him way off and prepared before hand. I didn't show fear, just caution and that I was alert and ready to dance to whatever music he called. And he moved on down the street. If a guy gets close enough to be a threat with a knife before you are ready to face him, you're not doing your job. You can't afford to walk with your head in the clouds. You've got to know what's going on around you. And when you do - you're no longer a target for the vast majority of muggers. There'll be some stupid ones, and that's all the more reason to keep your guard up.

So, that's what I did - the one time I've been in a similar situation to your hypothetical one.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:52 pm

Good point Paul a man with a knife is deadly at 7 yards. The greatest deterent is being aware of your surroundings. Its hard to sneak up on someone that is always scanning his area.

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm

It is interesting how many people have actually faced such circumstances.

Guess society has really, really changed. Not too many years ago in my hometown, if a young man challenged an old lady for her purse, she would have said: "Now Johnny Lee, what would your poor mother think of you?.... You better geet outta here fore I go tellin' on you!"

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:56 pm

Paul, JReed, When I instruct Defensive Tactics at the academy I give one of them an Airsoft pistol and have him holster it. Then from 7 yards I run at them with a rubber knife and 99% of the time I "stab" them before they get the gun out and on target.

BTW...lateral movement, not backwards, is the best defense while drawing and aiming. Running side-step forces the assailant to change direction which enables you to get the extra time you need to get on target.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:03 pm

Irish Cop Besides giving you time moving lateraly tends to confuse people. The standard human response is to charge or run away anything else causes the attacker to delay in his reactions.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:05 pm

Jarhead wrote:I like what Griff said, however, I know a Marine (Decorated Nam Vet) who this happened too! In a Bar, he was attacked by a Man with a Knife. My Marine friend took the knife away and Fed it to him....My Marine friend got 10 years for Manslaughter The judge told him that once he disarmed the Man, there was no need to kill him!!

Makes a feller think about shooting a fella with a knife...perhaps pulling your gun would make the fella run? Perhaps not? If you shot him, would you go to prison? Hard to say these days...

I'd rather face 6 Jurors VS. 6 Pall Bearers I reckon...

Here in New Mexico I had a case similar. two guys were trying to rob a guy at knife point. the potential victim had his daughter with him in the car. This was at a rest area in the interstate. yes he took the knife (K-Bar) and stabbed the guy once down through the clavical. after emergency surgery the robber idiot was charged for Agg. assault and robbery. we did not charge dad. It was great at the emergency room watching the efforts to save this guys life (very painful by the sound).

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:08 pm

If presented with force you better not get behind the curve. respond with your own show of force. most of the time this is all that is needed. look up the Use of Force Coninuum for police. I am not advocating that citizens need follow this but it is a good starting place. Know your local and state laws. all are diferent. Remember the fight is not over when the action is. It has just begun.

ole pizen slinger · Post by **ole pizen slinger** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:31 pm

I'm not going to tell anyone what to do in a case such as mentioned. Look at this link and decide for yourselves. Be sure to look at the pictures.
ole pizen slinger

http://blogidaho.blogspot.com/2007/01/w ... nives.html

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:31 am

We who carry handguns also carry a tremendous responsibility to use the handguns appropriately. I cannot imagine the horror of killing someone.

That being said, I have a responsibility to my family to protect them and myself. It's great that the young man turned his life around, but what if the situation had gone south? A liver laceration turns mortal in a hurry. What if what if what if, sure, but FOR ME I cannot, will not, must not take that chance. People make bad decisions every day but I'm not losing my life over it. I can't read the bad guy's mind to determine the extent to which he will go to get my money.

It's kind of a "lowest common denominator" mentality but I think the bad guy loses his right to complain at the moment he pulls his weapon.

Quinn

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:32 am

I can't speak for your side of the pond but over here we are seeing an increasing use of violence by scum that aren't interested in robbing you, they just want to harm you, often they get a buddy to video it on their phone so they can boast about it later!

We of course, can defend ourselves by telling them how naughty they are!

cowboykell · Post by **cowboykell** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:32 am

Give the poor guy $6.00....he hasn't had his Starbucks today !!

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:11 am

I would say if he breaks it off (turns and runs) or you can safely get away (duck around the corner or behind a car) then you should not use deadly force.

But if you're cornered or he's coming at you, or he's facing you thinking about coming after you, you should shoot him without warning or hesitation.

In my mind, it's my responsibility to end the threat to me or my loved ones in the safest, surest manner possible, not apprehending him or punishing him or ending a potential threat to others. Not as climactic as ramming him with your truck, but the choice that gets me out of trouble and no more than that. Catching bad guys is a job for the police, not for me.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:47 am

I'll do anything in my power to not use my gun, but if I fear for my life, I pray I can instantly stop them with all force necessary. Hopefully I'll be aware enough like Ambracol.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:55 am

Too many people get caught up in the faulty thought process that they must use the LEAST amount of force necessary to stop a threat. This is incorrect.

A person is required to use a REASONABLE amount of force.

The SUSPECT pulls a KNIFE...YOU pull a GUN.

This is reasonable.

If you do not have, or can not get to, a gun, use your bare hands to attack his eyes and/or throat. These are areas that no weight lifter can ever strengthen against an attack.

KEEP IN MIND however, if you attack a person's eyes or throat that you have used deadly force. This may be a reasonable amount of force when confronted by an armed attacker, but you must ultimately make the decision.

I have already, previously, stated which choice I would make. I'm going home at the end of the day.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:06 am

I've been approached by panhandlers the world over and once by a fellow who said he had a knife (and did) but didn't show it. With these and other incidents I've come to the conclusion that those who say they will use violence must be assumed to be telling the truth, nervous appearing or not, small or large, male or female. If you say you will hurt me I take you at your word AND I will not willingly allow that to happen. I don't carry much cash and only one credit card, I am no longer a good runner, and I have a bum shoulder right now. That limits my response options. There is but one reasonable response for me.

Bluehawk · Post by **Bluehawk** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:25 am

WELL going to the orignal premise here . The poor guy obvioulsy has the RIGHT to your money. And You have the DUTY to give it to him! give him your gun too Might as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:41 am

I have came very close to this situation.
In Daytona, we have a big problem with the homeless
and it always gets worse during the winter....Always
begging for money or cigs....Most are drug addicts or drunks

We were on our way to my wifes moms house for dinner.
I was low on gas so I stopped at the corner gas station...
On the other side of the street there were about 4 or 5
scumbags hanging around....I told my wife to lock the car
when i get out. While pumping gas I noticed out of the corner of
my eye that one of the guys started running accross the street
toward me....He got within ten yards or so and said
"give me some money man"....
This guy was about 6' and out weighed me by 50 pound..
I told him no and get a F'n job!
Once again.... "give me some money man"
I told hime to get away from me...and he continued...
"give me some money man"....in a very theatening manner...
Finally I had enough and said "get away!" I was upset to say the least.
The guy said to me.....You dont know if I have a gun...in ebonics
I could not believe this....I let go of the gas pump trigger
and turned towards him, looked straight at him.....and said...
"lets see who is faster"....
The guys eyes popped and he ran back across the street...
Most of these guys depend on fear to get what they want.....
You have got to aware of your surroundings..
Needless to say I dont buy gas downtown anymore...

Thank God we live in the country....where the only crooks we have
are racoons

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:46 am

Once they pull a weapon (any weapon) all bets are off, you have a right to defend yourself. As a security officer I am also bound by the use of force continuum which states that I can go one step above the scumbag, and if the means are at my disposal I will use them because at the end of the day I have a right to go home safe and he gave that right up when he became a criminal.

On the subject of their nervous disposition, thats twice as good a reason to be on guard. My son has a nervous dog and it will bite out of sheer terror if what frightens it moves in any way.

Jarhead, your marine friend got fubared when he used a knife to kill an unarmed man, which was an unnecessary use of force unless the man is 25 and the marine is 80 and half blind.

We had a case here in Perth not long ago were a couple of wannabes tried to do over a truck depot, the owner was sleeping on site and was confronted by a guy wielding a screwdriver ( the second punk ran) The owner used a knife about the size of a kabar and slashed the guys arm enough to sever an artery and the wannabe aint gonna be ever again. The owner walked because it was fair self defence and not unnecessary force.
The other thing that applies here in Oz is that in self defence or defence of another or defence of your property you can use the force that "you believe is necessary" So if your defence is " the scubbag was armed so I shot him" you will be be fubar, on the other hand if your defence is "he pulled a knife, I THOUGHT I WAS GONNA DIE, I did what I had to, to stop him" then legally you should walk free.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:16 am

I don't know. If the scumbag is close enough and has a knife to me, there's not much I can do. I probably couldn't get a gun out before he closed the distance and shanked me.

If the guy is scared, he's even more dangerous than calm. Scared people do rash, panicky things.

I like the idea of killing a threat before it gets close enough to be a threat, but that's probably a great way to end up in jail.

oregon73 · Post by **oregon73** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:19 am

It was a couple years ago, Saturday night, downtown. My wife (8 months pregnant at the time) and I had just finished a nice dinner out and were walking back to our car. From across the street a man started yelling at us, saying all sorts of threatening things, and actually took a few steps toward us. I immediately put myself in between this man and my wife and put my hand on the grip of my Detective Special, which I had been carrying in my waistband. I didn't draw the gun but it was obvious what I was about to do. The man recognized this, drunk or high though he was, and turned immediately. We got into our car and got out of there without further incident. Pretty strange moment, though. I was ready to draw and, if needed, drop the guy.

So if some punk is threatening me with a knife? At the very least, he's going to see what gun I chose to carry that day. If he needs more medicine than that, it can be arranged.

Rob

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:33 am

If you say you will hurt me I take you at your word AND I will not willingly allow that to happen. There is but one reasonable response for me.

And as Paul mentioned be aware of your surroundings. Maybe its just me but I don't like it when people get close to me anyways, so I try to always be on guard. I've made the mistake of letting a guy get close one dark night in a parking lot with my family close by and it was a feeling I never wish to feel again.

Also, what has been mentioned. I will not give judgement to what he "might be willing to do" but more thought to what I know I will do.

Johnny

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:13 am

Irish_Cop wrote:Paul, JReed, When I instruct Defensive Tactics at the academy I give one of them an Airsoft pistol and have him holster it. Then from 7 yards I run at them with a rubber knife and 99% of the time I "stab" them before they get the gun out and on target.

BTW...lateral movement, not backwards, is the best defense while drawing and aiming. Running side-step forces the assailant to change direction which enables you to get the extra time you need to get on target.

Heh. I love that training.

I actually have a different move aquired from my experience in Aikido & Krav Maga.

Assuming a couple of visual cues that are too detailed to go into that ID your goblin as an experiencd Blade man vs a guy with a knife, you step INTO his attack.

Then dislocate his hip & shoulder before you drive your elbow into T2-T4 as you drive his face into the asphalt.

Neat move. Works 99% of the time on 99% + of knife attackers and is 50/50 Fatal/crippling... and is much faster than drawing a gun.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:16 am

game keeper wrote:I can't speak for your side of the pond but over here we are seeing an increasing use of violence by scum that aren't interested in robbing you, they just want to harm you, often they get a buddy to video it on their phone so they can boast about it later!

We of course, can defend ourselves by telling them how naughty they are!

Geez - Obama says that since you guys got more gun control, there isn't any more crime - I can't believe he'd lie to us...

Actually, from a medical standpoint, most aggressive violence has been found to be due to a combined mineral deficiency, and if you can remedy that problem, the violent behavior will generally be dramatically reduced. All that is necessary is to administer a carefully assembled dose of lead, tin, and antimony (often contained in a capsule of of copper as well). Best dose seems to be from 8,000 mg to 32,000 mg, delivered at around 1,000 f.p.s. directly into the thorax. When a more rapid effect is needed, administration directly into the central nervous system may be necessary. The administration equipment is readily available in most areas of the U.S. but may be prohibited in England, and some U.S. jurisdictions.

Texican · Post by **Texican** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:02 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Actually, from a medical standpoint, most aggressive violence has been found to be due to a combined mineral deficiency, and if you can remedy that problem, the violent behavior will generally be dramatically reduced. All that is necessary is to administer a carefully assembled dose of lead, tin, and antimony (often contained in a capsule of of copper as well). Best dose seems to be from 8,000 mg to 32,000 mg, delivered at around 1,000 f.p.s. directly into the thorax. When a more rapid effect is needed, administration directly into the central nervous system may be necessary. The administration equipment is readily available in most areas of the U.S. but may be prohibited in England, and some U.S. jurisdictions.

I was going to say, "Throw a hedgehog at him" but the above statement sums it up nicely. Brilliant! M. Ayoob refers to the situation as a 'critical failure of the victim selection process'.

With all due respect to those who think the vermin will immediately quiver in fear at the sight of a gun pointed at them; I have say it ain't so. They don't always comply. Been there.

Rather than presuppose what I'd do in any given situation, it would be dependent upon whether I was 'in fear of death or grevious bodily injury' of myself or my family.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:25 pm

Ironsight, I love to instruct at the academy and we do use empty handed techniques as well, but this is a gun forum. I am a Ni-Dan in Shito-Ryu Karate-Do with a heavy emphasis on Goshin-Do, one of the "original" mixed martial arts that stresses grappling and taking the guy to the ground. Sort of Aiki-Jutsu and Ju-Jitsu mixed with Karate-Do. I didn't know you studied. In the Hagakure there is an expression I like to quote to new students. Condensed, it states, "When startled move forward." There is a lot of wisdom in that expression.

Maybe we should start an OT Thread to see who else trains.

AJ, when I read, "Actually, from a medical standpoint, most aggressive violence has been found to be due to a combined mineral deficiency, and if you can remedy that problem, the violent behavior will generally be dramatically reduced," I was becoming uncomfortable and thought man this guy has really lost his marbles. When I read the next part I laughed out loud! Thanks for the good chuckle!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:13 pm

Irish_Cop wrote:... Condensed, it states, "When startled move forward." There is a lot of wisdom in that expression.

I like "the wall (ground) hits harder than the fist"...

It is so fun to casually dance an agressor into an immovable object...

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:15 pm

Not exactly sure what would cause me to use deadly force, but I'll know it when I see it.

I've not forgotten lessons learned in the fall of 1972 at the University of Parris Island.

Noah