300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
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300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
I came back to the armory with a box of SAA, surplus ammo and arms, 130 Gr solid copper HP for the pistola. There is no velocity data on the box. There is no velocity data on the website. And NO ONE IN THE STORE has a clue what the velocity data is. So, mystery ammo.
Chrony time one of these days. I guess.
I looked at a couple of Ak pistols, but they are priced past reason now.
A friend tells me the 300 BLK will never equal the 7.62x39 Ak round. So I am wondering this:
What are specific comparisons between 300 BLK and the Ak FROM AN 8" BARREL?
OR a ten inch one, or a 7" one?
'Cause it's useless to compare a 300 pistol to a 16" carbine of any caliber, although it makes the 556 look weak in CERTAIN instances.
I know there is a lot of freight that crowds into these quesions, but I'm interested in "just the facts," Sir.
Still looking for 45 equiv load for the AR, in terms of penetration. Heh.
Grizz
Chrony time one of these days. I guess.
I looked at a couple of Ak pistols, but they are priced past reason now.
A friend tells me the 300 BLK will never equal the 7.62x39 Ak round. So I am wondering this:
What are specific comparisons between 300 BLK and the Ak FROM AN 8" BARREL?
OR a ten inch one, or a 7" one?
'Cause it's useless to compare a 300 pistol to a 16" carbine of any caliber, although it makes the 556 look weak in CERTAIN instances.
I know there is a lot of freight that crowds into these quesions, but I'm interested in "just the facts," Sir.
Still looking for 45 equiv load for the AR, in terms of penetration. Heh.
Grizz
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Here's a couple of links for comparison:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_AAC_Bl ... C3%9735mm)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/10907 ... arrel.html
The second only shows 7.62x39 info so you'll have to compare the two, it's pretty close on the velocities, closer than I would have expected. I also expect the muzzle blast out of the Russian round would be worse with more powder in the case.
Rob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_AAC_Bl ... C3%9735mm)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/10907 ... arrel.html
The second only shows 7.62x39 info so you'll have to compare the two, it's pretty close on the velocities, closer than I would have expected. I also expect the muzzle blast out of the Russian round would be worse with more powder in the case.
Rob
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May your rifle always shoot straight, your mag never run dry, you always have one more round than you have adversaries, and your good mate always be there to watch your back.
Because I can!
Never grow a wishbone where a backbone ought to be.
Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Thanks Rob
still trying to unwind my mind from the obvious and evident benefits of 525 grains loafing along around 1500 fps. Kind of the jdam of the ballistics world. At least the shoulder fired hunting portion of the bell curve. Never feel overmatched EXCEPT for the "range" thing.
Grizz
still trying to unwind my mind from the obvious and evident benefits of 525 grains loafing along around 1500 fps. Kind of the jdam of the ballistics world. At least the shoulder fired hunting portion of the bell curve. Never feel overmatched EXCEPT for the "range" thing.
Grizz
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Grizz, thought I'd post these numbers together for comparison.
7.62x39 - 8.5" 2101 fps w/Krink I'm going to assume that's a 123gr commie round, not a lot of loss there surprisingly.
7.62BLK - 8" 2051fps 110 Barnes
The BLK is pretty close, but still lagging. I really thought the x39 would have lost more velocity. Apparently x39 is less affected by the short barrel length than 5.56. However, I'm sure the recoil and muzzle flash in the x39 are much more impressive
I think overall the BLK in an AR still gets the nod in this application for a lot of reasons.
Source is the AR15.com thread above for the 7.62x39 as posted By Krebs Custom (I think they are a gun builder)
BLK is from here, I love this chart. http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 28&t=78987
7.62x39 - 8.5" 2101 fps w/Krink I'm going to assume that's a 123gr commie round, not a lot of loss there surprisingly.
7.62BLK - 8" 2051fps 110 Barnes
The BLK is pretty close, but still lagging. I really thought the x39 would have lost more velocity. Apparently x39 is less affected by the short barrel length than 5.56. However, I'm sure the recoil and muzzle flash in the x39 are much more impressive
I think overall the BLK in an AR still gets the nod in this application for a lot of reasons.
Source is the AR15.com thread above for the 7.62x39 as posted By Krebs Custom (I think they are a gun builder)
BLK is from here, I love this chart. http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 28&t=78987
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Grizz maybe you need one of these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.450_BushmasterGrizz wrote:Thanks Rob
still trying to unwind my mind from the obvious and evident benefits of 525 grains loafing along around 1500 fps. Kind of the jdam of the ballistics world. At least the shoulder fired hunting portion of the bell curve. Never feel overmatched EXCEPT for the "range" thing.
Grizz
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
I like that chart too. The 300 has a lot of civilian enthusiasm, is getting a lot of hunting time in on hogs and deer, so eventually that body of information will expand and either the round will be dropped in favor of the next new thing, or it will persist like the 30 WCF has.sore shoulder wrote:Grizz, thought I'd post these numbers together for comparison.
7.62x39 - 8.5" 2101 fps w/Krink I'm going to assume that's a 123gr commie round, not a lot of loss there surprisingly.
7.62BLK - 8" 2051fps 110 Barnes
The BLK is pretty close, but still lagging. I really thought the x39 would have lost more velocity. Apparently x39 is less affected by the short barrel length than 5.56. However, I'm sure the recoil and muzzle flash in the x39 are much more impressive
I think overall the BLK in an AR still gets the nod in this application for a lot of reasons.
Source is the AR15.com thread above for the 7.62x39 as posted By Krebs Custom (I think they are a gun builder)
BLK is from here, I love this chart. http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 28&t=78987
Whether any military or para-military organizations use it with its designed benefits and gets the designed results I suppose remains to be seen.
Since the military isn't about to equip our troops with AK47s, and the 556 has lots of criticism from recent battle stories, it will be interesting to see if our guys in Iraq get 300s for close-quarters defense from isis attacks. I wonder if the bravehearts clearing buildings over there would be well served with suppressed BLKS that are shorter than M4s. I just don't know, and until there is video no one else will either. The biggest issue in my mind is the opportunity to mix up ammo on the team. If anything can possibly go wrong . . . But I am only a civilian who reads and am no way a military strategist. There are people who get paid to make all the right choices, I hope they do.
Current lore available to me still has the AK as a much better close in fighting weapon, but I have no idea if this is actually true. And again my simple-minded theory, arm our guys with comm-block weapons, isn't getting any mileage from the military-industrial sectors.
Grizz
Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
I'm looking at the big-bore uppers for a jaunt up the inside passage. Not sure the 450 is top pick though. It's .452 which makes it friendly with 45 Colt, and in the article it is using little bullets, I didn't see what the range is weights is.sore shoulder wrote:Grizz maybe you need one of these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.450_BushmasterGrizz wrote:Thanks Rob
still trying to unwind my mind from the obvious and evident benefits of 525 grains loafing along around 1500 fps. Kind of the jdam of the ballistics world. At least the shoulder fired hunting portion of the bell curve. Never feel overmatched EXCEPT for the "range" thing.
Grizz
I'm more drawn to the .458 SOCOM and the 50 Beowulf.
.458 because that's what I shoot in Alaska, and there are heavy loads already developed for it. And since I load down-pressure and velocity it matches the AR chassis.
.50 BEO has some attractions too. I have even seen it suggested as a good house gun. If that's the case, and if it can chuck the Alaska type throw-weights, then it is in contention also. Plus, there's the advangage of being able to clean with shotgun swabs . . .
So, that's all up in the stratosphere for now.Design limitations (from the 50 BEO wiki article):
With normal bullet weights between 300 and 400 grains (19 and 26 g), overall cartridge length shorter than that of an AR-15 magazine well, and holding to pressures of 33,000 psi limited by the AR bolt strength system,[2] the .50 Beowulf is best described as a low-velocity, heavy caliber, making its ballistics roughly equivalent to those of early .45-70 Government rounds rather than the higher pressure rounds tolerated by modern lever action rifles such as the Marlin Model 1895.[3] Adaptability is limited due to its use of the 7.62×39mm bolt face.[4]
Right now I have a 5.56 carbine that will shoot all that military stuff, one of my guiding principles, and a pistol in thirty just because I can.
Best,
Grizz
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Grizz, there is no doubt that a suppressed low flash short barreled weapon with 44mag performance would be a huge advantage clearing rooms. There is also no doubt in my mind that it will never see use by line units. SpecOps, maybe, they already rely heavily on the Mk18 (10.5" bbl 5.56), but having seen the 6.8 SPC get fielded then yanked, and for good reason, I doubt even that due to the same reasoning behind yanking the SPC. Having observed the military supply chain first hand, and watched with interest the highly political procurement process for weapons and ammo, it seems clear to me there is little to no hope of a replacement for 5.56 as standard issue any time soon, regardless of how much "better" a replacement might be. One factor is we are standardized with NATO and that governs what ammunition we use more than any other factor. Then there's the manufacturers lobby.
As far as 5.56 "failing", it really depends on who you talk to. I know a lot of guys with notches on their guns that say it kills just fine. The doctrine behind 5.56 is sound in my opinion. Sound enough the Russians copied it. Highly accurate and flat shooting, low recoil, accurate with multiple follow up shots, more rounds with less weight. Volume of fire during combat is a completely different doctrine than a deliberate aimed shot when hunting.
As far as 5.56 "failing", it really depends on who you talk to. I know a lot of guys with notches on their guns that say it kills just fine. The doctrine behind 5.56 is sound in my opinion. Sound enough the Russians copied it. Highly accurate and flat shooting, low recoil, accurate with multiple follow up shots, more rounds with less weight. Volume of fire during combat is a completely different doctrine than a deliberate aimed shot when hunting.
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Yeah, I think the politics overwhelms the intellect, and I'm sure the 556 will be there until the second coming, for all the reasons you listed. I got one because my own doctrine says to have the capacity to use nato ammo. guess I need to get into mortar next ?
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Baby steps, .50 BMG. Btw they make .50 BMG AR15 uppers.Grizz wrote:Yeah, I think the politics overwhelms the intellect, and I'm sure the 556 will be there until the second coming, for all the reasons you listed. I got one because my own doctrine says to have the capacity to use nato ammo. guess I need to get into mortar next ?
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
I would disagree slightly with the above quote. Pressure in the cartridge itself does not directly affect terminal performance when comparing two cartridges. Pressures are often a factor of the design of the cartridge, and one cartridge may be a much higher pressure cartridge than another, but performance could be similar, or one could have similar pressures but one moves a heavier bullet at the same velocity as a lighter bullet from the other, etc.Grizz wrote:
I'm more drawn to the .458 SOCOM and the 50 Beowulf.
.458 because that's what I shoot in Alaska, and there are heavy loads already developed for it. And since I load down-pressure and velocity it matches the AR chassis.
.50 BEO has some attractions too. I have even seen it suggested as a good house gun. If that's the case, and if it can chuck the Alaska type throw-weights, then it is in contention also. Plus, there's the advangage of being able to clean with shotgun swabs . . .
Design limitations (from the 50 BEO wiki article):
the .50 Beowulf is best described as a low-velocity, heavy caliber, making its ballistics roughly equivalent to those of early .45-70 Government rounds rather than the higher pressure rounds tolerated by modern lever action rifles such as the Marlin Model 1895.
When I look at the .50 Beowulf, I don't compare it to the early .45-70 cartridges - I compare it to the modern heavier .45-70 cartridges. When you are moving bullets in the 400 gr. range at velocities up to the 1800 or 1900 fps range, then you are in the realm of the Win '86/Marlin 95 range of .45-70 cartridges, not the Trapdoor cartridges.
Now there are limitation on bullet weight, with around 400 gr bullets being the heaviest that are normally used, but there are with other rifles as well - for instance, my '86 Japanchester has a chamber that will not accept any 500 gr bullet I have tried (I have not tried the dual diameter bullets). That does not bother me too much, since a 400 or 450 gr. bullet will do just fine as well.
With the Beowulf, I have a 385 gr. solid brass bullet that will penetrate as well as needed on anything I shoot. I shot both the 385 brass HP and the 350 brass spitzer through a whale, and I have no doubts about the ability to fully penetrate a bear. I know people who have shot bears with it as well.
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
I think the comparison and point being made is the Beowulf ballistics compare to the 45-70 in the the roughly 34,000psi pressure range and ballistics of a Springfield shooting black powder cartridges of that era, and not the much, much higher pressure smokeless powder loads and the corresponding ballistics in a modern lever action, and is a fair and accurate comparison. Your argument is not invalid, however I think it addresses a point not being made by the original quote.
As to heavy bullets, I have a 560gr cast bullet doing 1450fps from a guide gun using a load that's nowhere near max and cycles perfectly. That is a Lyman borerider, which may be what you call dual diameter. However I know a lot of people are able to shoot 500+ gr flat points from their Marlins also. I'm not partial to the Winchesters so I don't know a lot about them, but I'm surprised their chamber and action is so limited.
As to heavy bullets, I have a 560gr cast bullet doing 1450fps from a guide gun using a load that's nowhere near max and cycles perfectly. That is a Lyman borerider, which may be what you call dual diameter. However I know a lot of people are able to shoot 500+ gr flat points from their Marlins also. I'm not partial to the Winchesters so I don't know a lot about them, but I'm surprised their chamber and action is so limited.
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
7.62 Precision, I replied inside your quote,
When I look at the .50 Beowulf, I don't compare it to the early .45-70 cartridges - I compare it to the modern heavier .45-70 cartridges. When you are moving bullets in the 400 gr. range at velocities up to the 1800 or 1900 fps range, then you are in the realm of the Win '86/Marlin 95 range of .45-70 cartridges, not the Trapdoor cartridges.
Low velocity and heavy for caliber has been my main focus for the last 15 years or so. If I could eject a 470gr slug from a 50 BEO or a 458 SOCOM at around 1300fps I would consider that a happy circumstance. It's going to thru-penetrate any animal in Alaska from any angle. And no bone structure will stop it. so far as I know today. It's easy on venison, no meat damage. I would not call it a trapdoor load and I would not fire it in one.
I shoot a 525gr cast bullet from all modern 45/70 including pistols. From a pistol I get 1310 fps. From my guide gun I get abt 1420. This is a reduced load that should be able to work in the .458 uppers. That bullet from my guide gun penetrates 12 one-gallon water jugs. So far I have not found another big bore that does that.
I think the actual sweet spot for 45/70 would be 475gr. 525 is better than a higher velocity 425 for penetration in my tests. And non-stop penetration is my Alaska load of choice. I think 405gr is about the lightest I want to shoot. That's what I shoot subsonic in my redhawk .43
Now there are limitation on bullet weight, with around 400 gr bullets being the heaviest that are normally used, but there are with other rifles as well - for instance, my '86 Japanchester has a chamber that will not accept any 500 gr bullet I have tried (I have not tried the dual diameter bullets).
Is that Winchester branded? I have a Browning 1886 SRC that chambers and shoots the 525gr PileDriver Grizz load. No problems.
I have seen over 500gr loads listed for .458 socom. But as I said, I think 475 would be be fine, even down to subsonic.
That does not bother me too much, since a 400 or 450 gr. bullet will do just fine as well.
With the Beowulf, I have a 385 gr. solid brass bullet that will penetrate as well as needed on anything I shoot. I shot both the 385 brass HP and the 350 brass spitzer through a whale, and I have no doubts about the ability to fully penetrate a bear. I know people who have shot bears with it as well.
I like solids a lot. my preferred hunting bullets. I'd like to stick to BTBs since I've used them for years in many firearms and trust them 100%. Besides, I don't want to take up machining to make brass bullets.[/quote]
Grizz
I would disagree slightly with the above quote. Pressure in the cartridge itself does not directly affect terminal performance when comparing two cartridges. Pressures are often a factor of the design of the cartridge, and one cartridge may be a much higher pressure cartridge than another, but performance could be similar, or one could have similar pressures but one moves a heavier bullet at the same velocity as a lighter bullet from the other, etc.7.62 Precision wrote:Design limitations (from the 50 BEO wiki article):
the .50 Beowulf is best described as a low-velocity, heavy caliber, making its ballistics roughly equivalent to those of early .45-70 Government rounds rather than the higher pressure rounds tolerated by modern lever action rifles such as the Marlin Model 1895.
When I look at the .50 Beowulf, I don't compare it to the early .45-70 cartridges - I compare it to the modern heavier .45-70 cartridges. When you are moving bullets in the 400 gr. range at velocities up to the 1800 or 1900 fps range, then you are in the realm of the Win '86/Marlin 95 range of .45-70 cartridges, not the Trapdoor cartridges.
Low velocity and heavy for caliber has been my main focus for the last 15 years or so. If I could eject a 470gr slug from a 50 BEO or a 458 SOCOM at around 1300fps I would consider that a happy circumstance. It's going to thru-penetrate any animal in Alaska from any angle. And no bone structure will stop it. so far as I know today. It's easy on venison, no meat damage. I would not call it a trapdoor load and I would not fire it in one.
I shoot a 525gr cast bullet from all modern 45/70 including pistols. From a pistol I get 1310 fps. From my guide gun I get abt 1420. This is a reduced load that should be able to work in the .458 uppers. That bullet from my guide gun penetrates 12 one-gallon water jugs. So far I have not found another big bore that does that.
I think the actual sweet spot for 45/70 would be 475gr. 525 is better than a higher velocity 425 for penetration in my tests. And non-stop penetration is my Alaska load of choice. I think 405gr is about the lightest I want to shoot. That's what I shoot subsonic in my redhawk .43
Now there are limitation on bullet weight, with around 400 gr bullets being the heaviest that are normally used, but there are with other rifles as well - for instance, my '86 Japanchester has a chamber that will not accept any 500 gr bullet I have tried (I have not tried the dual diameter bullets).
Is that Winchester branded? I have a Browning 1886 SRC that chambers and shoots the 525gr PileDriver Grizz load. No problems.
I have seen over 500gr loads listed for .458 socom. But as I said, I think 475 would be be fine, even down to subsonic.
That does not bother me too much, since a 400 or 450 gr. bullet will do just fine as well.
With the Beowulf, I have a 385 gr. solid brass bullet that will penetrate as well as needed on anything I shoot. I shot both the 385 brass HP and the 350 brass spitzer through a whale, and I have no doubts about the ability to fully penetrate a bear. I know people who have shot bears with it as well.
I like solids a lot. my preferred hunting bullets. I'd like to stick to BTBs since I've used them for years in many firearms and trust them 100%. Besides, I don't want to take up machining to make brass bullets.[/quote]
Grizz
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
They DO make AR pistol barrels in 50 Beowulf...
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
What is the range of bullet weights you have experience with? Have your chronied your loads?AJMD429 wrote:They DO make AR pistol barrels in 50 Beowulf...
thanks
Grizz
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
I don't have a pistol barrel just a rifle one. My shooting so far has been limited to Alexander Arms factory loads, which look like they have Barry's Plated Bullets in them. Haven't chrono'd them but before I start reloading I'll want to do that so I can have something to compare to.Grizz wrote:What is the range of bullet weights you have experience with? Have your chronied your loads.AJMD429 wrote:They DO make AR pistol barrels in 50 Beowulf...
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Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Thanks Doc
For me the question comes down to throw-weight, and while the 50 should throw equal weight bullets at lower pressures for the same velocity, I seem to see 325 loads, that I shoot in 44 mag, for the 50s. The express load thing. Where the 45/70 bullet range gets up to 600 and 700gr in some cases, from about 180 for the button loads, so there is a tremendous range that adjusts performance to any whim. I don't see this with 50s, so that's what I'm curious about.
The other thing is that for a given weight and velocity, the 458 should penetrate better than the 50, in the same way that a 44 penetrates better than the 458, velocity and throw weight being equal. When I was excited about converting my guide gun to 50 I read everything I could find and didn't see any 50 loads that significantly out-performed 45/70 in any pracitical way useful to me.
When I look at big bore uppers for the AR chassis I analyze the utility to me for my needs, previously noted. If the 458 can knock a something-or-other tail over teacup, and the 50 can't roll it twice, I get confused about the utility value of the 50. Other than ease of cleaning with a shotgun swab, previously noted!
I am open minded about the bigger bore uppers and interested in all the pros and cons. I'm certain there are many dimensions of the puzzle, one of which is I don't have a fifty anything, that need to be explored.
The other way I look at this is, when I am standing between a downed deer and a nine foot brown bear, will I wish I had picked the other one
Grizz
For me the question comes down to throw-weight, and while the 50 should throw equal weight bullets at lower pressures for the same velocity, I seem to see 325 loads, that I shoot in 44 mag, for the 50s. The express load thing. Where the 45/70 bullet range gets up to 600 and 700gr in some cases, from about 180 for the button loads, so there is a tremendous range that adjusts performance to any whim. I don't see this with 50s, so that's what I'm curious about.
The other thing is that for a given weight and velocity, the 458 should penetrate better than the 50, in the same way that a 44 penetrates better than the 458, velocity and throw weight being equal. When I was excited about converting my guide gun to 50 I read everything I could find and didn't see any 50 loads that significantly out-performed 45/70 in any pracitical way useful to me.
When I look at big bore uppers for the AR chassis I analyze the utility to me for my needs, previously noted. If the 458 can knock a something-or-other tail over teacup, and the 50 can't roll it twice, I get confused about the utility value of the 50. Other than ease of cleaning with a shotgun swab, previously noted!
I am open minded about the bigger bore uppers and interested in all the pros and cons. I'm certain there are many dimensions of the puzzle, one of which is I don't have a fifty anything, that need to be explored.
The other way I look at this is, when I am standing between a downed deer and a nine foot brown bear, will I wish I had picked the other one
Grizz
Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
One is American made the other is not.
1in 7 for heavier subs 1in8 for super sonic. 1in 7 works for both.
This cartridge is new to me so not much more info that I can help with.
1in 7 for heavier subs 1in8 for super sonic. 1in 7 works for both.
This cartridge is new to me so not much more info that I can help with.
Re: 300 AAC BLK ammo + 'nother question
Thanks for the picts, they look like a lot of fun and you have some nice mods. Good ones.