The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
“The word magnum sells rifles and ammunition. (And the popular gun magazines are too dependent on advertising from the major arms and ammo manufacturers to bite the hand that feeds them.) It's a matter of marketing, not performance.”
http://www.chuckhawks.com/evolution_mag ... ridges.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/evolution_mag ... ridges.htm
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Do yourself a favor and dont ever quote Chuck Hawks.
Slow is just slow.
- sore shoulder
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2611
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
- Location: 9000ft in the Rockies
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
This thread now has potential.cas wrote:Do yourself a favor and dont ever quote Chuck Hawks.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
11B30
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
cas wrote:Do yourself a favor and dont ever quote Chuck Hawks.
Okay
Is it okay to quote this guy
“Different opinions are fine. Who said anything different? It's the manner in which they are expressed.” Paul - in Pereira
-
- Levergunner 2.0
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:43 pm
- Location: San Juan Island, WA
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
casastahle wrote:cas wrote:Do yourself a favor and dont ever quote Chuck Hawks.
Okay
Is it okay to quote this guy
“Different opinions are fine. Who said anything different? It's the manner in which they are expressed.” Paul - in Pereira
Game, set, match.
Bob in Friday Harbor, WA
Don't look back something might be gaining on you.
-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Personally I could care less what name is attached to a cartridge. If I like the performance and the firearm it's fired in, then I'd buy it. There is definately a place for "Magnums", but I agree to a certain extent that the name has been way, way over used, and all the "Short Action" this and "Ultra" that are meaningless to me. Look at the bullet and what it does, who cares what tag is on it.
NRA Life Member
- sore shoulder
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2611
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
- Location: 9000ft in the Rockies
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Inflammatory marketing phrases have been around since someone tried to sell Noah flotation devices. Making a big deal out of how a someone markets a cartridge or firearm shows the author is out of anything important to say.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
11B30
- sore shoulder
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2611
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
- Location: 9000ft in the Rockies
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
I just realized it probably won't be long before I hear someone in the ammo aisle proclaiming how a WSSM isn't a "true magnum".
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
11B30
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
"Never let the fact that you dont know about something keep you from writing about it." I think that may have been Chuck Hawks.
Theres opinions and then there's wrong.
Theres opinions and then there's wrong.
Slow is just slow.
- Streetstar
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3924
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:58 am
- Location: from what used to be Moore OK
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
MAgnum-itis --- i was in a gunsmiths shop when someone came in with his new custom 300 H&H and was complaining about it ---- He said it shoots like a "laser beam" but when he chrono'ed it it was only 2850 - and something must be wrong! ---
The new rifle was outfitted with a heavy ER Shaw 20" barrel and a neat Hogue target stock with a wide beavertail style "tactical" forend
The gunsmith started laughing like it was a real knee slapper , and at that point i had no idea what was funny either, --- then he said
"Sh-- man! You just built a $2000 30/06"
Then he explained that to realize full "Magnum " performance, - the gent was going to have to step up to a 24 or even a 26" barrel --- Kind of an odd choice for a tactical style rifle anyway - but the guy just liked the idea of the H&H cartridge as he had some 375's at home too
Seemed like a neat target or light benchrest style rifle anyway , but i'm sure the bloom was off the rose for that guy from then on out
The new rifle was outfitted with a heavy ER Shaw 20" barrel and a neat Hogue target stock with a wide beavertail style "tactical" forend
The gunsmith started laughing like it was a real knee slapper , and at that point i had no idea what was funny either, --- then he said
"Sh-- man! You just built a $2000 30/06"
Then he explained that to realize full "Magnum " performance, - the gent was going to have to step up to a 24 or even a 26" barrel --- Kind of an odd choice for a tactical style rifle anyway - but the guy just liked the idea of the H&H cartridge as he had some 375's at home too
Seemed like a neat target or light benchrest style rifle anyway , but i'm sure the bloom was off the rose for that guy from then on out
----- Doug
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". In other words, no big deal...
Mike
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit...
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit...
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
- Streetstar
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3924
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:58 am
- Location: from what used to be Moore OK
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
mikld wrote:"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". In other words, no big deal...
No joke --- the guy i referenced in my story was so disappointed he wasnt getting that extra 250-300 fps , --- but, if the rifle is accurate and will do what you intended for it to do anyway , not much of a loss --
i'd like to see someone shoot a 20" barreled 300 H&H at night though - the fireball is likely pretty cool
----- Doug
- sore shoulder
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2611
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
- Location: 9000ft in the Rockies
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
You could fit a LOT of slow burning powder in a 300 H&H case, but, as stated, it would take 26" of barrel to burn it up.
Of course whenever I hear people talking about something being too long and heavy to carry around, I'm reminded of the men who carried around a 70" long 10 lb rifle all day every day.
Of course by the late 1870's the Army had short barreled carbine versions of 42".
And Lewis and Clark would have needed an SBR stamp for their 33" rifles.
Then there's the men who hump a 249 or 240 while wearing 30lbs of armor + ammo and a 45lb rucksack.
Of course whenever I hear people talking about something being too long and heavy to carry around, I'm reminded of the men who carried around a 70" long 10 lb rifle all day every day.
Of course by the late 1870's the Army had short barreled carbine versions of 42".
And Lewis and Clark would have needed an SBR stamp for their 33" rifles.
Then there's the men who hump a 249 or 240 while wearing 30lbs of armor + ammo and a 45lb rucksack.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
11B30
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16740
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Magnums pretty much operate at high pressure levels, not to say that some others don't also.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
.222 (triple duce) Rem. Mag. or .223 Rem. or 5.56
What sounds cooler for marketing
Do you think it would have made a difference if the .348 win. would have
been dubbed the .348 Winchester Magnum back in the day?
What sounds cooler for marketing
Do you think it would have made a difference if the .348 win. would have
been dubbed the .348 Winchester Magnum back in the day?
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Yes! The gun writers would have promoted it more and with the magical/mystical tag of "MAGNUM", it would still be very popular today.casastahle wrote:.222 (triple duce) Rem. Mag. or .223 Rem. or 5.56
What sounds cooler for marketing
Do you think it would have made a difference if the .348 win. would have
been dubbed the .348 Winchester Magnum back in the day?
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
casastahle wrote:.222 (triple duce) Rem. Mag. or .223 Rem. or 5.56
What sounds cooler for marketing
Well since the .222 Remington Magnum only lasted a few years...
I know where the original "magnum" came from, but if you look back over the history of modern cartridges, it's probably been attached to fewer successes than it has to failures and things that good or bad, just never caught on or stuck around. That is to say the Magnums with longevity are much much fewer than the "also rans".
Slow is just slow.
-
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1406
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:33 pm
- Location: West central Montana
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Man I've never been around so many anti gun people in my life. If you don't have a need or see any use in new cartridges guess they should just stop making them?
I mean they had a 22 hornet so why the need for a 22-250, or they had the 30-30 why build a 30-06 and on and on. Some people, myself included, like new stuff.
I mean they had a 22 hornet so why the need for a 22-250, or they had the 30-30 why build a 30-06 and on and on. Some people, myself included, like new stuff.
Trump 2024
All responses have been cleared by the law firm of "Elmer and Fudd."
All responses have been cleared by the law firm of "Elmer and Fudd."
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
"Man I've never been around so many anti gun people in my life."
Harry, seriously bro. (as o'l Pitchy would say)
Two things that are far from lacking in this forum:
From my cold dead hand's pro-gun attitude...
And plenty of testosterone to backup the above...
Harry, seriously bro. (as o'l Pitchy would say)
Two things that are far from lacking in this forum:
From my cold dead hand's pro-gun attitude...
And plenty of testosterone to backup the above...
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16740
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Magnum has a meaning. A survey of the rifle cartridges will indicate that they all operate at about 65,000 psi. As I mentioned, some others do also like the 22-250, 6mm Rem and 270 but if it says Magnum it will be at a certain pressure level which in turn will produce, depending on bullet weight, a trajectory in a certain category. Might not mean anything in the eastern woods but then again it might in the west. The 222 Rem Mag is, I believe, an exception to that in the SAAMI specs.
Far as the popular gun mags go, almost all I see in Guns & Ammo now are tactical rifles and pistols.
Far as the popular gun mags go, almost all I see in Guns & Ammo now are tactical rifles and pistols.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Agree, what do you think the reason is Fred?Old Savage wrote:Magnum has a meaning. A survey of the rifle cartridges will indicate that they all operate at about 65,000 psi. As I mentioned, some others do also like the 22-250, 6mm Rem and 270 but if it says Magnum it will be at a certain pressure level which in turn will produce, depending on bullet weight, a trajectory in a certain category. Might not mean anything in the eastern woods but then again it might in the west. The 222 Rem Mag is, I believe, an exception to that in the SAAMI specs.
Far as the popular gun mags go, almost all I see in Guns & Ammo now are tactical rifles and pistols.
Do we all deep down inside know what's coming,
and it has nothing to do with deer in the woods.
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16740
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Not sure. Last thing I bought was a 25-20. And, last thing I shot in that category was an M16 almost 40 years ago. No, wait, I helped a young friend sight in his Arizona AR.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
I have noticed a maybe good, maybe bad thing.
It has to do with the recently hired 20 something guys at work.
They own and seem somewhat knowledgeable about the AR & pistol world.
But do very little or no hunting, and have little to no knowledge of traditional firearms and ammo.
An example would be if you asked them if they knew anything about the above mentioned 22-250 or 270.
It has to do with the recently hired 20 something guys at work.
They own and seem somewhat knowledgeable about the AR & pistol world.
But do very little or no hunting, and have little to no knowledge of traditional firearms and ammo.
An example would be if you asked them if they knew anything about the above mentioned 22-250 or 270.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
But didn't S&W call Keith's 357, the 357 Magnum because one of the people was looking at a bottle of champagne and though Magnum would be a good marketing name?
I don't remember the story that well.
Steve
I don't remember the story that well.
Steve
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
How about this.....
Winchester had their 22 WRF (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) that later evolved into the 22 WMRF, but.....
Stevens did not want to advertise for Winchester, so they stamped their barrels "22-4 1/2" referring to the ammo of black powder the cartridge had.
Winchester had their 22 WRF (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) that later evolved into the 22 WMRF, but.....
Stevens did not want to advertise for Winchester, so they stamped their barrels "22-4 1/2" referring to the ammo of black powder the cartridge had.
I know a whole lot about very little and nothing about a whole lot.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Interesting, never heard that.SteveR wrote:But didn't S&W call Keith's 357, the 357 Magnum because one of the people was looking at a bottle of champagne and though Magnum would be a good marketing name?
I don't remember the story that well.
Steve
If you track the story down please post it.
- GonnePhishin
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1952
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:23 pm
- Location: Bodecker's BBQ Bar & Grill
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Yes, the word magnum is certainly used in the advertising world. Would you rather have 440 magnum engine or just a 440?
Same with firearms. Dirty Harry used a 44 Magnum; therefore a lot of people wanted them. would it have had the same effect if he had only called it a 44?
Same with firearms. Dirty Harry used a 44 Magnum; therefore a lot of people wanted them. would it have had the same effect if he had only called it a 44?
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson
"I know not what course other men may take, but as for me, Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry
"I know not what course other men may take, but as for me, Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry
- Buck Elliott
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 2830
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:15 pm
- Location: Halfway up Sheep Mountain -- Cody, Wyoming
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
WRF = Winchester Rim Fire..jdad wrote: Winchester had their 22 WRF (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) that later evolved into the 22 WMRF, .
WMR = Winchester Magnum Rimfire
Regards
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
I recall it being because of the large champagne bottle, but don't recall it being attributed to Keith.SteveR wrote:But didn't S&W call Keith's 357, the 357 Magnum because one of the people was looking at a bottle of champagne and though Magnum would be a good marketing name?
I don't remember the story that well.
Steve
5mm Remington Magnum, .222 Remington Magnum, 6.5 Remington Magnum, 350 Remington Magnum, 8mm Remington magnum, all fine cartridges but they didn't exactly set the world on fire. Maybe it's the Remington part that's the kiss of death for Magnums Seen a 308 or 358 Norma Magnum on the shelf lately? More's the pity.
And then there was this week's 31 flavors (or 131 flavors) of Ultra Mag, Short Mag, Super short mag... good grief.
Last edited by cas on Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Slow is just slow.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
44 Special has a nice little hook as wellUncleBuck wrote:Yes, the word magnum is certainly used in the advertising world. Would you rather have 440 magnum engine or just a 440?
Same with firearms. Dirty Harry used a 44 Magnum; therefore a lot of people wanted them. would it have had the same effect if he had only called it a 44?
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Buck Elliott wrote:WRF = Winchester Rim Fire..jdad wrote: Winchester had their 22 WRF (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) that later evolved into the 22 WMRF, .
WMR = Winchester Magnum Rimfire
Thanks, I'm glad you know what I meant, but Winchester did use the "WMRF" rollstamp when it was introduced on the Model 61.
I know a whole lot about very little and nothing about a whole lot.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
I can't pin down the story, but a lot of places talk about it though.
http://www.vincelewis.net/357.html
"The term "Magnum" was actually coined by Major Douglas Wesson of Smith & Wesson, he was a well know connoisseur of expensive champagne and a double size bottle is called a "Magnum" of which he regularly ordered. This name sounded appropriate to him to express the larger and almost twice as powerful cartridge."
I think it was someplace I was reading about Elmer Keith's work on the 357, maybe somebody will find a direct quote. I do know that S&W patented the term "magnum" for their revolvers.
I think TERRY M has direct knowledge of the subject.
Steve
http://www.vincelewis.net/357.html
"The term "Magnum" was actually coined by Major Douglas Wesson of Smith & Wesson, he was a well know connoisseur of expensive champagne and a double size bottle is called a "Magnum" of which he regularly ordered. This name sounded appropriate to him to express the larger and almost twice as powerful cartridge."
I think it was someplace I was reading about Elmer Keith's work on the 357, maybe somebody will find a direct quote. I do know that S&W patented the term "magnum" for their revolvers.
I think TERRY M has direct knowledge of the subject.
Steve
- vancelw
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3933
- Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm
- Location: 90% NE Texas and 10% SE Montana
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
tman wrote:Yes! The gun writers would have promoted it more and with the magical/mystical tag of "MAGNUM", it would still be very popular today.casastahle wrote:.222 (triple duce) Rem. Mag. or .223 Rem. or 5.56
What sounds cooler for marketing
Do you think it would have made a difference if the .348 win. would have
been dubbed the .348 Winchester Magnum back in the day?
The .348 Winchester Super Magnum would only have succeeded if Hornady had been around to invent the magical FTX bullets, making it a 1000 yard rifle.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Fire Up the Grill - Hunting is NOT Catch & Release!
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Nice buck TR
Where did you hit him?
Where did you hit him?
- vancelw
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3933
- Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm
- Location: 90% NE Texas and 10% SE Montana
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
In the deer woods!casastahle wrote:Nice buck TR
Where did you hit him?
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
I guess I've gotten used to what's called a pass-through over the past few years.vancelw wrote:In the deer woods!casastahle wrote:Nice buck TR
Where did you hit him?
Big o'l hole going in and a big o'l hole on the way out.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
The .348 replaced the .33 Winchester. It's increased range and power over the .33 indeed made it a magnum. If Hornady would load it with superformance powder and a gummy tip, We would then have your .348 super mag.vancelw wrote:tman wrote:Yes! The gun writers would have promoted it more and with the magical/mystical tag of "MAGNUM", it would still be very popular today.casastahle wrote:.222 (triple duce) Rem. Mag. or .223 Rem. or 5.56
What sounds cooler for marketing
Do you think it would have made a difference if the .348 win. would have
been dubbed the .348 Winchester Magnum back in the day?
The .348 Winchester Super Magnum would only have succeeded if Hornady had been around to invent the magical FTX bullets, making it a 1000 yard rifle.
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
Never say nevertman wrote:The .348 replaced the .33 Winchester. It's increased range and power over the .33 indeed made it a magnum. If Hornady would load it with superformance powder and a gummy tip, We would then have your .348 super mag.vancelw wrote:tman wrote:Yes! The gun writers would have promoted it more and with the magical/mystical tag of "MAGNUM", it would still be very popular today.casastahle wrote:.222 (triple duce) Rem. Mag. or .223 Rem. or 5.56
What sounds cooler for marketing
Do you think it would have made a difference if the .348 win. would have
been dubbed the .348 Winchester Magnum back in the day?
The .348 Winchester Super Magnum would only have succeeded if Hornady had been around to invent the magical FTX bullets, making it a 1000 yard rifle.
- Canuck Bob
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1830
- Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:57 am
- Location: Calgary, Canada
Re: The Bottom Line, 'Magnum = Marketing'
The magnum craze has dominated the gun world for decades. However blaming the marketers lets shooters off the hook too much. Desire drives the market as much as anything. We have guns with iron sights, red dot sights, scopes, headlights, lasers, and whatnot on the same rifle at the same time. Absolutely ridiculous to me who thinks anything not elegant in form, steel, and walnut is an abomination. Companies go broke catering to dinosaurs like me!! A well designed AR platform is a wondrous rifle in many crazy calibers with silly names.
Recently the new econo bolt rifles are storming the market. I consider them the modern equivalent of the Win 94. Working class guns. The use of injected molded plastic and such keeps me from buying but they fly off the shelf. Modern production seems to include a level of performance and machining that is surprising in a cheap rifle.
The story about the 300 H&H saddens me. Sometimes I dream of tackling long range shooting and a 300 H&H would be my choice. The gunsmith could have helped the guy a bit more. I suspect with some careful loading advice that a higher fps could be found.
Regarding Chuck Hawks I find his site one of the few that actually talks some sense. I just dropped by and read an article praising the 30-06, 7X57, 30-30 and 270. Try and find that in print these days. He does write nonsense as well and blatantly promotes products. He's got bills to pay too. I've read him pushing fixed scopes and calling out the 1 moa bench crowd for hunting rifles. His site discusses receiver and tang sights and has lots of talk about levers and offhand shooting instructions and tips. I find much I agree with between him and Wakeman but then I'm not an expert and like iron sighted levers in 444 so what can I know that is important.
Recently the new econo bolt rifles are storming the market. I consider them the modern equivalent of the Win 94. Working class guns. The use of injected molded plastic and such keeps me from buying but they fly off the shelf. Modern production seems to include a level of performance and machining that is surprising in a cheap rifle.
The story about the 300 H&H saddens me. Sometimes I dream of tackling long range shooting and a 300 H&H would be my choice. The gunsmith could have helped the guy a bit more. I suspect with some careful loading advice that a higher fps could be found.
Regarding Chuck Hawks I find his site one of the few that actually talks some sense. I just dropped by and read an article praising the 30-06, 7X57, 30-30 and 270. Try and find that in print these days. He does write nonsense as well and blatantly promotes products. He's got bills to pay too. I've read him pushing fixed scopes and calling out the 1 moa bench crowd for hunting rifles. His site discusses receiver and tang sights and has lots of talk about levers and offhand shooting instructions and tips. I find much I agree with between him and Wakeman but then I'm not an expert and like iron sighted levers in 444 so what can I know that is important.