How come the 180 grain .44 is so wimpy?

[AJMD429]

I read how you can drop dead a big buck with a .357 Magnum, especially if you use one of those 180 grain bullets they spit out at 1800 fps or so.

Then I read that a .44 Magnum really needs the 'heavier' bullets to do the job (I'm not talking about bullet construction here - I mean weight only), and the times .444 Marlin is mentioned the same thought surfaces about how the lighter bullets just don't pack much punch.

Now if it comes to a charging boar, a moose, or a cape buffalo, I'd like my bullet to weigh at least 5,000 grains, give or take a pound, but when it comes to dropping a whitetail in its tracks, I just think it is funny how a 180 grain .429 bullet would be that much LESS deadly than a 180 grain .357 bullet travelling at the same speed. What about 'meplat' and all that stuff?

(Really - AmBraCol and Hobie put me up to this - it's just a plot to get all you cantankerous old goats arguing about something other than politics - besides - I'm an old goat too, and I just might learn something if I sort of glide back into the shadows and listen to you feller's have your say...)

[tman]

357 at lower velocitiy will expand in deer size game, while the 44 will punch straight thru, without expanding. bullet construction is often overshadowed by boresize and muzzle velocity/energy. you gotta match the bullet to the game.

[TedH]

Most 180 gr. 44 bullets are hollow points. To my way of thinking, the 180 gr. HP 44 load at carbine velocities would tend to over-expand or possibly "blow up" the bullet severely limiting penetration. If you had a good strong 180 gr. jacketed soft nose bullet or a hard cast slug, I would have no problem using them on a deer. Then you also have the sectional density to consider. A 180 gr. 357 slug will penetrate deeper than a 180 gr. 44 slug shot at the same velocity due to the greater sectional density of the 357 bullet.

[AJMD429]

357 at lower velocitiy will expand in deer size game, while the 44 will punch straight thru, without expanding. bullet construction is often overshadowed by boresize and muzzle velocity/energy. you gotta match the bullet to the game.

I thought that 'punching straight thru' was a GOOD thing though - big hole, blood loss, shock, etc., and that expanding was only needed for the smaller diameter rounds to facilitate those things...?

I'm just talking about two chunks of hard cast lead, or two chunks of 'soft point pistol bullet' (I've killed ALL my deer with a 240 grain softpoint pistol bullet fired from a .44 Mag, sabot in .50 Muzz, or sabot in 12 ga.).

Both travelling around say 1800 fps, both same construction. 44 Mag has bigger front end and makes bigger hole, yet I hear the 180gr .357 is so much better than the 150gr .357, and drops deer flat - on the other hand the same 180gr chunk of lead, going the same speed, in a slightly larger diameter from a .44 Mag or .444 Marlin, "lacks sufficient knockdown, and you really need to use a 240 grain or larger."

It seems to violate physics and common sense, but maybe the deer know something we don't?

[Blaine]

Generally speaking, I like well constructed solids/hardcast more than hollow points. Having said that, while I'd trust my .357 with 180 solid/hardcast to do what it needed to do, I'd prefer the 240 grain .430 solid/hardcast over it, and a 300grain solid or hardcast .430 over the 240, so on and so forth....

[bj94]

You have to match the projectile to the game, in terms of how tough the construction of the game is AND how far the bullet must penetrate at a minimum to be effective. Actually, penetration is the most important, and you must select a projectile type to insure that minimum amount of penetration.

With respect to the 180 grain .44mag, I've not used them but I've thought about it before. Considering the lower sectional density of the projectile as it starts, and how much the projectile might expand before it penetrates very far, it is probably not appropriate for any game that is very large. The 180 grain in the .357 starts out with much greater sectional density, and you would expect it to penetrate more before it has significant expansion.

[dr walker]

While I am sure many deer have been killed by a 180gr bullet out of a 44 magnum rifle I have only seen one. The deer was 30 yards away the bullet hit the shoulder on a broadside shot the deer dropped instantly, jumped up making an awful sound spinning in circles, falling down getting up. The deer was shot a second time in the neck and dropped for good. The first shot penetrated no more than 2.5-3 inches, it did break the shoulder all up. We quite using 180's in the 44 magnum. I am not saying all 180 gr bullets are equal. The bullet we had used was Federal, I dont know anything about other 180's because we dont use them.
The sectional density of the .429 180gr bullet is much less than the .357 180gr bullet. Sectional density plays a major role in penetration.

[Hobie]

Some folks really like the 180 gr. .44 Mag loads out of a rifle. They like that it "blows up" and shreds the lungs. They shoot behind the shoulder angling into the lungs and only that shot and are skilled enough to set up for and/or patient enough to wait for that shot. Not me. I turn down enough shots based on my ideas of safety, I like penetration and will shoot more than once.

[AJMD429]

It's starting to make some sense now, but it's hard not to suspect there's some 'voodoo' and such mixed in many of our beliefs about different loads and guns. Still, the sectional density aspect carries some weight (...get it - "weight" - Ha! )

[Grizz]

AJMD429

I think you're right, given the exact bullet type. There would not be a lot of difference in the result.

But that doesn't take into account the concept of heavy or light for caliber bullets.

180g is considered light for 44 cal and heavy for 357 cal. What's the diff, you're wondering?

Well, in your scenario you're pushing the rounds at 1800fps. You probably won't be doing that out of a 357 handgun, and I'm not sure about out of a 44 handgun. But it's pushing the pressure limits of the 357.

Now look what happens when I put a 325g bullet in a 44 mag and slow it down to about 1200 fps. Now I've got a bullet that will penetrate deer thru and thru from any direction, recoils lightly, and isn't running anywhere near the pressure limits of the round. Plus it's wonderful in handguns and certain rifles. Same thing really for the "normal" 240g bullet, but I wanted to show what happens when you go to a heavy for caliber 44 bullet.

I don't think it's that you "NEED" to have a heavy bullet in the 44, it's just that they work so well.

But you "need" to have a heavy bullet in the 357 to equal the varmit loads in the 44. sorta...

Grizz

[Jeff Pitts]

My Dada and I killed a lot of deer back in the '70's and early '80's with a couple Ruger Super Blackhawks using a 180gr Hornady JHP and 10 grs of Unique.

I remember this one I smacked along side the head 'cause it was the only shot he would give me. Ugh...............

Jeff

[Buffboy]

When I got my 5 1/2" 44SBH it would shoot 240gr a foot high at 100 yards with the sight all the way down. With 180gr 44s, I could get it zeroed at 100. I'd read that the 240s wouldn't expand consistently on deer sized game out of a handgun anyway and that 180gr bullets were the ultimate weight for deer. I hunted deer with my SBH and the 180s. I got lousy penetration, extensive meat destruction, and the joy of having to shoot multiple times to get the now messily wounded deer down. This was the beginning of the learning process that not all gun/loading advice in a magazine was to be believed.

Given my experience with that combo in a handgun, I'd have to agree with the good Dr above. They didn't work well and this was at 44mag handgun velocities, I doubt the added velocity of a carbine would improve that. I sent the gun to Ruger, they fixed the sighting problem and I never used 180s again.

[Ysabel Kid]

(Really - AmBraCol and Hobie put me up to this - it's just a plot to get all you cantankerous old goats arguing about something other than politics

This just may work!

[KWK]

Now AJMD429, there's more than a little bit of apples-and-oranges stuff in that question. One might focus on the three forms of "ballistics." To provide some estimates, I'll use the QuickLoad simulator; I've found its estimates to be decent (but not perfect).

Internal - The 180 gn on the .44 will have better than 75% more powder behind it at ignition. This means there's far more energy available to accelerate the bullet. In other words, the .44 will start at a far higher velocity than the .357 will. Estimates place the .44 at about 30% more fps at the muzzle.

External - The stubby .44 will have a much lower BC. While the higher muzzle fps will give it an advantage in trajectory, the high drag will cause it to slow more rapidly, and this in turn will make it more susceptible to wind drift. Estimates give the .44 a point blank range (+/- 2 inches) of about 150 yd vs 125 for the .357. The .44 arrives at 125 yd with about 13% more fps (and a flatter trajectory), but it drifts 30% more due to any crosswind. For a steady 10 mph crosswind (pretty stiff), the .44 drifts about 6" off the line of sight at 125 yd.

Terminal - The .44 is going faster at impact at all reasonable ranges. If expanding bullets are used, it will thus flatten out to a much greater diameter than the .357 will, at the same weight. As hunters above have pointed out, this means the .44 will not penetrate to the vitals reliably. Compounding this problem can be the issue of wind drift, which is more likely to put the .44 in the "wrong" spot than with the .357. If solids are used, the .357's greater SD can compensate for it's lower impact speed.

I have no experiences with solids on game. My hunch is that from a rifle, a 180 gn .44 solid would do just as well on deer as the .357 would. For expanding bullets, I'd want the .357.

[Terry Murbach]

YOU FOLKS SHOULD GO BACK AND READ OF LEE JURRAS' SUCCESS WITH 44MAG-180gr BULLLETS IN AFRICA.
SOME TEN YEARS AGO A PAL OF MINE IN TEXAS HAD TO THIN THE DOES IN HIS HERD. HE USED A 44MAG MARLIN CARBINE AND EVERY 44MAG LOAD HE COULD LAY HANDS UPON. HE TOOK 89[?] DOES AND THE ONLY LOAD THAT WOULD PUT 4 FEET IN THE AIR AT EVERY CRACK OF THE GUN WERE THE 180gr 44MAG LOADS OF A COMPANY OTHER THAN FEDERAL. HE HAD TOLD ME AHEAD OF TIME THIS WOULD BE THE WAY IT WOULD HAPPEN. " BALOGNA !! " IT TURNED OUT HE WAS RIGHT AND I WAS WRONG [ IMAGINE THAT !! ]
ALSO, 44MAG DO NOT HAVE TO EXPAND TO BE FULLY EFFECTIVE ON SOFT TARGETS LIKE DEER. AS A MATTER OF FACT EXPANSION ALWAYS COMES AT THE PENALTY OF PENETRATION.
I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT ALL THE DOES WERE SHOT ONCE WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT LOADS HE USED AND ALL DIED WITHIN SECONDS. NO BIG DEAL AS THEY ARE DEER, ONE MIGHTY SOFT TARGET.

[tman]

you can kill anything with anything. expansion is more critical on light big game. heavy game requires a bullet that holds together and drives deep, this is the philosphy of the ammunition companies for the last 110 years, and i tend to agree. but ,as always, bullet placement thrumps everything.

[cecil]

Tried a box of the Rem factory 180 gn jsp's, which seem to have replaced their 180 grain jhp loads. 2100 fps from 16 in Marlin, and 1900 fps from 7 1/2 Ruger Bisley. Hdy factory 180 xtps are also pretty hot if memory serves, but not blistering like that batch of Remingtons.

The Rem 180 jhp likely won't hold together very far at those velocitys, but am betting the newer 180 jsp's penetrate a littl further? Am very fond of loading Rem 180 gn jhps at 1000 - 1500 fps. 3 in 44 specials to 16 in 44 mag levers.

[NonPCnraRN]

SD and BC for the Barnes XPB pistol bullets is why I bought a SBH instead of a Blackhawk in .45 Colt. The 225 gr 44 mag bullet has the same SD as the 250 gr 454 Casull bullet and much better BC. Plus, per Barnes the 225 gr bullet will hold together in both 44 mag carbine and 444 Marlin rifle velocities. I don't think the BC will make that much difference at revolver ranges but the smaller .429 should penetrate a little deeper than the .451 bullet. On deer however, both should penetrate through and through on a broadside shot. Maybe someone could fire some Corbon ammo using both bullets in the next Linebaugh Seminar. Unfortunately, Corbon only loads the 225 gr .451 in 45 Colt. I would like to see a side by side test with the 225 gr .429 XPB against the 250 gr .451 XPB bullet at the same velocity.

[buckeyeshooter]

I have not shot the 180's out of my 44 mag rifle, but I do carry the Federal 180 grain JHP in my 3 inch S & W 29 as my personal defense CCW gun. I am quite confident it would get any aggressors attention and end hostilities immediately.

[ace1001]

Here is what I learned about HPs,
Noslers are soft with a lot of exposed lead. Great for 38SP .45Colt
But tends to disintegrate with something hot like .357 or .44 mag.
Hornady XTP is fantastic with a hot load...a little expensive and wasted
on 38SP 9mm ect.
Raineer Balistics PLATED HPs are VERY inexpensive but really need something hot like .357 or .454 casull to open well.
So you need a different bullet for each velocity to upen well but still hold together. Ace

[AJMD429]

Guys, this is an incredible wealth of information. Thanks. I hope the thread continues awhile, and I hope others are enjoying the exchange as much as I am.

* * * If I'm getting the gist of this discussion, it seems like the 240 grain soft point I've killed deer with was always moving around 1200-1500 fps - either 25 yards straight out of a .44 Mag revolver, 50 yards with a 12 gauge saboted setup, 75 yards with a .50 muzzleloading saboted setup, or 100 yards straignt out of a lever action .44 Magnum. All worked GREAT.

If I took that same bullet and shot it in a .444 Marlin or a .429 Whizbang, and it was going 2500 fps - it might be going so fast it would not perform well, or at least not perform the 'drill a hole clear through the deer' way the others have. It WOULD transfer lots of energy, providing it fragmented IN the deer, and would kill the deer humanely, IF it didn't hit bone and perhaps detonate so soon it didn't reach vitals. ALSO I'd have more meat destroyed than the 'drill through' method I get with slower velocities.

Now if I limited my shooting of the Whizbang to 300 yards, and the bullet was slowed down to 1500 fps THERE, then I'd get the same performance I now get at close range, provided I can hit the target at that range taking into account trajectory, wind drift, and time of flight vs. the deer bolting. If I was waiting for that 300 yard deer, and a 30 yard deer came into view, however, I'd be better off pulling out my Super Blackhawk and shooting that same bullet more slowly, unless I had some really 'light' loads for the Whizbang which gave me my 1500 fps at 30 yards rather than at 300 yards.

Finally, the 180gr bullets we assume (perhaps not always correctly) to be more fragile, since they are usually assumed to be used for 2-leg varmints at 20 feet ranges. Still, if you had a solid 180 grain which was 'tough' you'd face two hurdles - one being the lesser ballistic coefficient vs. the longer bullets, which might result in a more curved trajectory which would negate the velocity advantage in terms of aiming. The other being the lesser sectional density, so even if the projectile were tough enough to 'drill through,' it might NOT do so as well.

Now if you had a 180 gr. bullet proportional to that 240 grain .429 one, say .40 caliber or whatever, so the sectional density WAS the same, you'd drill the hole just about as successfully, only it would be a smaller hole, and if the hole is too small, you get less shock, slower death, and if you do have to trail an animal, less blood to follow.

If the preceding re-statement of much of what was posted is halfway correct, then THAT explains why all you guys really like your .45 caliber guns, and if you use your .44's or .35's you want heavy bullets even though the velocity is lower vs. the available lighter ones. (...and I always thought the advantage of the smaller diameter bullets was only the fact that they went faster and flatter!)

None of this negates the ultra long-range advantage of the 7mm Mag if you're in the mountains, or the flat-shooting advantage of a .22 centerfire for prarie dogs, but it does explain why for medium and large game under 300 yards you guys generally seem to prefer large heavy bullets at moderate velocities.

Now (maybe another thread?) ...with these moderate velocities, how often do you really need gas checks, then...?

(...see all you guys who gripe about 'OT' posts, we really CAN do lots of stuff on guns. Sorry if the 'old timers' may find this and similar topics repeats of discussions which undoubtedly take place every few months or couple of years, but to myself and other relative newbies, there is lots to learn so I for one like to ask lots of dumb questions... )