What is actually a GOOD 'Brush Gun'...?

[AJMD429]

Interesting video from Iraqveteran8888...

https://youtu.be/P5dve7vAY9I

[Blaine]

I would not shoot through brush. Just say no to brush.

[Old Ironsights]

I agree that shooting through brush at a target you can barely see is a Bad Idea (tm), but sometimes you are taking what appears to be a really clean shot through nothing, but then a tree branch jumps in your way (particularly if you are using optics).

While the test was constructed with unrealistic conditions, it does prove the point.

[Griff]

I would not shoot through brush. Just say no to brush.

+1!

[AJMD429]

I agree that shooting through brush at a target you can barely see is a Bad Idea (tm), but sometimes you are taking what appears to be a really clean shot through nothing, but then a tree branch jumps in your way (particularly if you are using optics).

While the test was constructed with unrealistic conditions, it does prove the point.

Yeah - it just takes ONE branch. A very visible target can have just a spindly little spicebush or dogwood shrub in front of it and deflect your bullet - some more than others, I guess....!

The only reason he chose such dense brush was to increase the odds that a bullet would in fact hit a branch. Placing a No.2 Pencil at 30 yards and shooting 'through' it towards a 50 yard target would perhaps be more realistic, but few of us could intentionally hit the pencil.

[FWiedner]

Interesting.

But... yeah, given the choice... No brush.

[Old Ironsights]

Interesting.

But... yeah, given the choice... No brush.

I tried clearing a shooting lane for my bow once.

The deer came in to my stand from an entirely different route.

I had a good pin, but I still clipped an unseen branch. My breadbasket shot bounced... and ended up eyeballing the doe.

I won, but only by the favor of Artemis.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Many years ago there was an article in the American Rifleman testing the brush gun theory. The author built a wooden frame that had dowels going through it from two different directions so that a bullet could not pass through without cliping one of the dowels. A target was placed some distance behind the dowel box and several different supposedly brush busting calibers tested along with several calibers that were not considered good brush calibers. Bottom line was a big surprise. The least deflected bullets were fired from a .243 Win. And a 6mm rem. . Some of the expected winners did not even come close. The .45-70 was one of the calibers that did not live up to its reputation in the test.

[Ji in Hawaii]

What if the brush that's attacking you is named Groot?

[Old Ironsights]

Plus:


New Groot from the Root...

[AJMD429]

Many years ago there was an article in the American Rifleman testing the brush gun theory. The author built a wooden frame that had dowels going through it from two different directions so that a bullet could not pass through without cliping one of the dowels. A target was placed some distance behind the dowel box and several different supposedly brush busting calibers tested along with several calibers that were not considered good brush calibers. Bottom line was a big surprise. The least deflected bullets were fired from a .243 Win. And a 6mm rem. . Some of the expected winners did not even come close. The .45-70 was one of the calibers that did not live up to its reputation in the test.

Yeah. Saw that and I think a YouTube where someone did it that way as well.

That's why I posted this one; seems like there is not a definitive consensus 'experimentally', although the old-timers who just hunted, and observed, seemed to go with the big-fat-slow-bullet theory.

I also recall the target showing 243 and co doing better was close behind the dowels, versus a couple dozen yards, so that could favor different bullet types and velocities.

I also remember surprise at a video where I think only eight gallon-jugs of water stopped a 50 BMG FMJ, but a 1200 fps or so 45-70 went through twice as many.

Interesting stuff....

[Chuck 100 yd]

A bullet that is deflected any at all will continue on it's new vector. The distance the target was placed behind the box/brush was the same for all cartridges. In that test the .243/6mm were deflected the least.

[GunnyMack]

16" naval gun is the only way to go for brush busting!

Wait for a shot not obstructed. I'd rather let the animal walk away then chance wounding it.

[jeepnik]

Dad was adamant about this. You just don't do it, period!

On the other hand, if the target is shooting back, it's time for spray and pray. Oh, and while naval gunfire is great, it has it's range limitations. Field artillery is great, but again it has to be around. CAS has better range, the ability to select from various munitions, but still has to be around. On the plus side, even if they aren't right there they can get there when naval and ground artillery can't.

The whine of a Phantom making a pass can be a wonderful thing to hear.

[AJMD429]

A bullet that is deflected any at all will continue on it's new vector. The distance the target was placed behind the box/brush was the same for all cartridges. In that test the .243/6mm were deflected the least.

I was thinking the dowel-test guy had the target just a few feet behind the 'brush', whereas the Iraqveteran8888 guy had 20 yards or so between brush and target. Another testing difference would be that the dowels were really rigid, whereas the real brush the other guy used would have some 'give' to it.

Just musing over why one test would show 243 Win better than 45-70, and the other test pretty much the opposite.

And no I don't advocate intentionally shooting through dense brush; I think that missed the point. The reality is that in the woods, when light is not great, and there are shadows, your bullet may hit a 3/8" branch halfway to the target.

Knowing which bullets and velocities are most vulnerable to that contingency seems like a good idea, just like knowing which ones do best of you happen to strike heavy bone, or which ones are more vulnerable to wind drift, or a poor estimate of range if shooting downhill, and so on.

The different tests do make some sense geometrically if bowling-ball type bullets do deflect linearly, and change path but don't deform or destabilize much, so still go in a straight line, albeit in a different direction, and if speedier bullets deform more even if their speed carries them a few feet farther along the original path before things deteriorate, and additive deviations start taking them way off course.

Think an automobile hitting, but penetrating, a barricade. It might get pushed aside so that even a car-length past it, it would be twenty feet off to one side, but then continue straight in that direction quite a long way. A jet plane hitting the same situation might make it through and be very close to the original path for a few dozen yards, but be so much changed aerodynamically that it starts to arc off in a very different direction.

It would be interesting for someone to do the tests using more realistic 'brush', and with targets at BOTH 5 yards and 50 yards behind the brush. Also instead of testing so many different cartridges and bullets just pick a slow-fat one and a fast-skinny one, use at most two bullet types, but instead of drawing conclusions after three rounds, shoot a hundred or so from each gun.

I can attest to a big-ol' "brush-busting" 45 caliber bullet hitting a 3/4" 'twig' at 6 feet from the muzzle not even touching a stationary deer maybe 40 feet away....! (my very first deer hunt; scope line-of-sight issue, and valuable lesson learned ) I doubt any fast-skinny bullet would have done much better though.

[Grizz]

what was the bullet shape on that 45/70?

3/4 inch is pretty big . . . bigger than the bullet . . . wonder about the variables

shooting thru a blueberry bush at a deer feeding on it doesn't seem as risky

but I have no data and I make clear shots best I can

[Canuck Bob]

To me a good brush gun is meant for hunting in the bush, not shooting through it. I've spent much of my hunting in the foothills of Alberta or in Boreal Forest.

Good bush gun:
Heavy hitter, mine was a 444 Marlin
Fast to target, scope capable of 2.5X as a max, mine was a Leupold 2.5X Compact M8
Preferred peep sight, Lyman or Williams with easy adjustment, like look too
Excellent offhand fit and performance
Lever action

[Griff]

My "brush gun" is a mdl 94 Trapper, or the 375 Marlin, but... with it's 22" bbl and 4X scope, not so much.

[marlinman93]

Every time I hear the subject of "brush guns" or "brush gun calibers" it makes my jaw tighten. Whoever came up with the idea of shooting through brush was an idiot, and should have his guns taken away!
There have been numerous tests published in magazines and online that totally prove that even the largest calibers and heaviest bullets will deflect with even a small twig. Beyond that, the safety (or lack of safety) in shooting through brush is always a factor. I've accidentally had bullets hit twigs so small I didn't see them, and they still caused a bullet to drastically change course.
Unless somebody is hunting with their favorite cannonball, everything else will deflect enough to give very poor results.

[gcs]

I think the term "brush" gun originally meant the gun was handy to carry and shoot offhand in heavy wooded or "brushy" conditions, not that the bullet should go through brush and still hit the target. The term was hijacked by folks who were thinking too much, or at least looking for an excuse to shoot at anything shootable.
You want heavy and slow? use a 12 gauge slug, but I guarantee those things DO deflect when they nick a branch.

[AJMD429]

I still think it is of interest to how different bullets react if they hit a twig ('brush'), even if I try to avoid hunting in 'brush'.

I wouldn't take a shot in 'brush' that obscured the target or the backstop, regardless of whether my bullet would perform and hit the target, because of the safety issue(s).

However, there are cases where the 'brush' in no way obscures the backstop area, nor does it make identifying the animal and its vital zone difficult, yet - it is there.

I don't think any of us would take this 'brush' shot....



....or this one.....



but....is this too much 'brush', and an unsafe shot, for the deer on the left...???



Many of these shots are not in 'brush', but all of them offer the possibility of a bullet hitting a twig or branch, which is one of the two reasons not to hunt in 'brush'.

Some I would take without hesitation, and others not at all....which ones would you take...???

[AJMD429]

Some additional ones with 'brush' - shoot, or no-shoot...???

[tman]

Where I hunt in the mountains, 100 yards is a long shot. It is HEAVILY brushed, so a clear lane of fire isn't always possible. So, I'm happy with the .444 and 45-70 results. Your hunting may vary

[6pt-sika]

Where I hunt in the mountains, 100 yards is a long shot. It is HEAVILY brushed, so a clear lane of fire isn't always possible. So, I'm happy with the .444 and 45-70 results. Your hunting may vary

My sentiments as well !

[6pt-sika]

I still think it is of interest to how different bullets react if they hit a twig ('brush'), even if I try to avoid hunting in 'brush'.

I wouldn't take a shot in 'brush' that obscured the target or the backstop, regardless of whether my bullet would perform and hit the target, because of the safety issue(s).

However, there are cases where the 'brush' in no way obscures the backstop area, nor does it make identifying the animal and its vital zone difficult, yet - it is there.

I don't think any of us would take this 'brush' shot....



....or this one.....



but....is this too much 'brush', and an unsafe shot, for the deer on the left...???



Many of these shots are not in 'brush', but all of them offer the possibility of a bullet hitting a twig or branch, which is one of the two reasons not to hunt in 'brush'.

Some I would take without hesitation, and others not at all....which ones would you take...???

the first two are not for me but the rest inside 100 yards are oh my my oh h...e...l...l yes !

[6pt-sika]

Some additional ones with 'brush' - shoot, or no-shoot...???

All four are oh my my oh h...e...l...l yes if inside 100 yards .

[Old Ironsights]

Even as a meat hunter I might skip the yearling doe on pic 4.

The others are dead.

[6pt-sika]

Even as a meat hunter I might skip the yearling doe on pic 4.

The others are dead.

Then she better hope she comes by you and not me lols !

[Lastmohecken]

7pt Nov 2016.JPG

I have killed more deer in the brush with a .270 or .308 than about anything but then again, I have used them more than other calibers. The OP mentioned Brush gun, not Brush Caliber.

So, here's my take. At super close range (and I do mean Close with a capitol C) on moving or charging game, my first choice would be an iron sighted (probably Leveraction) in appropriate medium to big bore caliber. If I have to bet on it, I would give the heavy slower bullet the edge, but if you hit much of anything before the target, all bets are off.

The best Brush Gun, is a short to medium length rifle or carbine with (gasps and grinding of teeth) a good low power variable scope sight with no more then 2 power on the low side. A scope allows you to find that hole in the brush to get that bullet through, or picking another point on the deer to make a humane shot, such as a neck shot or head shot if the shoulder lung area is not open. Iron sights, as much as I love them require, more restraint and turning down of iffy shots, that are duck soup with a scope gun in the brush.

A scope sighted 45/70, or even a 30/30 or for some people maybe a short bolt action carbine or semi-auto, or even single shot with a low powered scope, makes the best Brush gun. For me it's usually my Browning BLR in .308 with a 2 x 7 Leupold, plus it still gives me the versatility to take a long shot if needed. And even in the thick woods and brush, I have killed a lot of deer farther then you might think after I had cranked the scope up on 7 power to find that long hole through the brush to shoot through.

[Ji in Hawaii]

My "brush gun" for the past 41 years has been my Marlin model 1894 in 44 magnum, but NOT for shooting through the brush but a handy package for crawling through the brush to get to my target. On one of my wild pig hunts my buddy who's land I was hunting on was going nuts whispering to me rather loudly "SHOOT! SHOOT! SHOOT!) as I patiently waited for a large boar to emerge from not so dense cover about 125 yards away. When he finally did come into the clear I squeezed the trigger and the boat dropped instantly not even taking a single extra step. Could the 240 grain bullet penetrate the cover and hit the boar with the same effect? I don't know but I wasn't going to find out either. Dad taught me NEVER to shoot through brush. Thanks Dad.

I would hate to be squatting in the bushes relieving myself and be mistaken for game and shot at with a "brush gun" as I grunted a 5 pounder out.

[guntar]

The problem with a lot of these discussions is that the only thing that is discussed seems to be whether the bullet is deflected or not. It may be more important in hunting to determine what happens to the bullet after it hits the obstacle, and then what happens when it hits the target.

A characteristic of most small caliber bullets is that due to their design and velocity they tend to deform much more quickly than most slower, heavier bullets. Under normal circumstances that deformation/expansion takes place inside the animal and is a good thing. If it is initiated by the brush it is an entirely different scenario. Heavier, slower bullets, due to their design, tend to exhibit these tendencies to a much lower degree.

In addition, if you have shot much game, you know that larger calibers do more damage than smaller calibers, all else being equal. If the expansion capabilities of a smaller caliber bullet have been compromised by premature expansion, then this tendency is even more marked. In other words, if bullets are deflected the same amount and still hit the target, the larger, heavier bullet is likely to do a lot more damage with a marginal hit.

I suspect that a lot of reputations for "brush calibers/rifles" may be due to these factors, rather than their ability to go through brush without deflection.

[KirkD]

Setting aside the question about whether one should shoot through brush, the question boils down to a simple matter of physics ... the higher the momentum of the bullet, given the same twig at exactly the same spot and angle, the less it will deflect. For example, a freight train hitting a 3 foot snow drift will deflect less than a Volkswagon Bug if both are traveling at 50 mph ... the freight train simply has more momentum. I read the article about shooting through doweling years ago and can't remember the results, but if it was the 243 that came out the winner, then there was something seriously wrong with the experiment; it may be the case that the smaller diameter bullet was not hitting as many dowelings, but momentum is everything. In real life, it is typically one, single twig or blade of grass that you did not see, not a mitt-full of branches (unless you are one of those that hopes the bullet will plow through saplings, trees, weeds and a host of branches to get your target.)

Momentum is simply mass x velocity. For a bullet measured in grains, one divides by 7000 to get pounds, so the formula for momentum is (bullet weight in grains x velocity) divided by 7000. So for a 45-70 firing a 500 grain bullet at 1,300 fps, the momentum would be 500 x 1,300/7,000 = 93 foot pounds. For a 243 firing a 55 grain bullet at 4,000 fps, the momentum would be 55 x 4,000/7,000= 31 foot pounds of momentum.

Bottom Line: The 500 grain 45-70 will deflect much less if it hits a tiny twig than a 243 will. All this, of course, assumes that both bullets hit the exact same twig and the exact same spot and the exact same angle. In real life, this is impossible to achieve and the Youtube video demonstrates the least repeatable experiment you can get when he simply fires through brush. Such an experiment is pretty much pointless due to the fact that every bullet he fired through the bush is a whole new ball game when it comes to which twig will get hit, how many will get hit, and what angles will be involved.

If in doubt, and you really need to punch through the bush because the bad boys are a-coming, opt for a 10 pound bullet fired at 2,000 fps ..... if you don't get one of them, you will at least be far away in the next county from the recoil.

[AJMD429]

The problem with a lot of these discussions is that the only thing that is discussed seems to be whether the bullet is deflected or not. It may be more important in hunting to determine what happens to the bullet after it hits the obstacle, and then what happens when it hits the target.

A characteristic of most small caliber bullets is that due to their design and velocity they tend to deform much more quickly than most slower, heavier bullets. Under normal circumstances that deformation/expansion takes place inside the animal and is a good thing. If it is initiated by the brush it is an entirely different scenario. Heavier, slower bullets, due to their design, tend to exhibit these tendencies to a much lower degree.

In addition, if you have shot much game, you know that larger calibers do more damage than smaller calibers, all else being equal. If the expansion capabilities of a smaller caliber bullet have been compromised by premature expansion, then this tendency is even more marked. In other words, if bullets are deflected the same amount and still hit the target, the larger, heavier bullet is likely to do a lot more damage with a marginal hit.

I suspect that a lot of reputations for "brush calibers/rifles" may be due to these factors, rather than their ability to go through brush without deflection.

All of the above are VERY good points...!

In real life, it is typically one, single twig or blade of grass that you did not see, not a mitt-full of branches (unless you are one of those that hopes the bullet will plow through saplings, trees, weeds and a host of branches to get your target.)

Exactly the point I was trying to make - we don't intentionally shoot 'through brush', but sometimes a sizable (1/2" or so) twig can be hidden in a shadow or whatever, and the bullet hits it...

-

I think we ALL have had times where we have had to walk through nearly impenetrable thickets ('brush') to get to our deer stands, and certainly for that purpose, a "short, compact carbine" is the ticket, regardless of whether it is chambered in 220 Swift, or 500 Smith & Wesson.

Given equally compact guns for that scenario, I'd probably opt for one in a caliber beginning with a '4' or '5', and the laws of physics mean that will deliver a heavy bullet (due to diameter) at a fairly low velocity (due to recoil). I'd opt for such a gun anyway, because I think making a pair of (entrance and exit) large holes in the thorax makes for the most humane DRT kill, and the environment makes long-range 'drop' from the low-ballistic-coefficient bullet less of an issue. Now if I were in a large open area, with longer-range shots possibly presenting, I'd want a flat-shooting cartridge, so I didn't have to be as precise in range estimation, which means a higher ballistic coefficient bullet, and again the laws of physics and my shoulder's anatomy mean that by definition we will be dealing with a caliber beginning with a '2' or '3'. To get the maximum velocity and minimal muzzle blast from such a cartridge, I'll likely have a longer barrel, which works out ok since this is an 'open' environment, where my less-compact 'non-brush-gun' won't be a problem.

.....so it all works out sort of automatically, anyway.....!

[FWiedner]

There is no doubt that a bullet of any caliber, weight, shape, or velocity will deflect to some degree when striking even a minor obstruction going through brush.

Just as the velocity of the wind closer to the muzzle has a greater affect on POI down range than does wind closer to the target, the same is true of brush obstructions. A twig or sapling closer to the muzzle will deflect a bullet of any size or type to greater effect than a twig or sapling 8 inches this side of the animal's hide. So what does this mean?

If you have to take a shot on a creature obstructed by brush, you've got a better chance of successfully hitting the target if the brush obstruction is A LOT closer to him than to you, whatever caliber you are using.

By my guess, if your obstruction is even a couple of yards from your target, there's an excellent chance that you've wasted your shot.

[wolfdog]

I know for sure I missed a deer when I shot at a buck about 75 yards away from a ground blind and clipped a branch that was part of my blind. I know for sure because I killed him the next day from the same blind but a bit further away and he didn't have any extra holes and no branch blew up in front of me. That was with a 6.5x55. I also know I shot down a 4 inch diameter birch tree with a 265 grain Hornady from about 80 yards while shooting at a walking buck. didn't realize I got the deer as well until I walked over to look at the tree. He was about 5 yards past the tree and the first deer that ever dropped in its tracks when I shot it. And another brush gun test.http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... x-o-truth/

[Griff]

If in doubt, and you really need to punch through the bush because the bad boys are a-coming...

That calls for hand grenades.

[AJMD429]

I also know I shot down a 4 inch diameter birch tree with a 265 grain Hornady from about 80 yards while shooting at a walking buck. didn't realize I got the deer as well until I walked over to look at the tree. He was about 5 yards past the tree and the first deer that ever dropped in its tracks when I shot it.

Did you recover the bullet...? Was there just one entrance wound...? Was the entry wound or wound channel different than usual...?

[AJMD429]

And another brush gun test.http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... x-o-truth/

....the BEST part....

Lessons learned:
1.Light weight, fast bullets like the .223 were knocked off their axis and deflected more than heavier bullets. In fact, it was flying sideways after 10 yards.
2.The .308 was not deflected as much as I would have thought. Not enough to miss a deer 10 yards behind the brush.
3.The .45-70 plowed through the dowel without much deflection.
4.The 12 gauge slug shrugged off the dowels and went right on to the target.
5.I brought a much larger piece of cardboard than I actually needed. I expected to see “feet” of deflection, not inches.
6.It sure is hot in Texas today. We were leaking water like a couple of rain clouds. Come on Fall.

But even when it’s hot, it’s still fun to shoot stuff.

[KirkD]

If in doubt, and you really need to punch through the bush because the bad boys are a-coming...

That calls for hand grenades.

I hate it when tossing hand grenades in heavy brush and one of them bounces off a tree and comes right back at me. Of course, that brings up the question of which grenade makes the best 'brush grenade'.