Cape Buffalo with a 45-70?

H&R BANG · Post by **H&R BANG** » Thu May 22, 2008 6:34 pm

Hello all,

I am new to this forum, but I have been "lurking" for some time. I finally signed up because I would really like to go on the next levergun Africa safari.

To this aim, I have recently been checking out rifles for Cape Buffalo. I wouldn't hunt them in South Africa, but my plan is to have one African introduction hunt before going on a buffalo safari. I would like to use my buffalo rifle on the first safari as a shakedown. I know the buffalo rifle standard is the 375 H&H, however, I as I get older (and hopefully wiser) I am more uncomfortable carrying a cocked and locked weapon. The uncocked lever action or H&R Handirifle is my idea of a safe gun.

I have read stories of buffalo, elephant, rhino, lion, and hippo hunts with the 45-70 Marlin. I know the 45-70 will kill cleanly, but so will a well placed 30-30. So, my question - Is the 45-70 with a 400 grain bullet at 1900 feet per second an acceptible STOPPER for buffalo?

I had a new Remington 798 in 375 H&H in my hands a few days ago. I almost bought it, but it just didn't seem right for me.

What do you all think?

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu May 22, 2008 7:11 pm

This depends greatly on the type of bullet and if you mean stopping a head on charge or just stopping a buffalo right there right now. I personally have relied on Kodiak bullets of 405gr in the 45-70. Mine happen to go a bit over 2000 fps at the muzzle of the 22" barrel. I have also shot some with Punch bullets. I usually load a Kodiak, Punch, Kodiak, Punch, Punch in that order. The load will kill a buffalo with good shot placement and reasonable range. It has also been my practice to make multiple shots when I can. I have been present for over 30 large bovine kills with my clients, inclusive of buffalo (water and cape), bison, watusi and yak. I can tell you for sure that every one acts different and you never know what to expect. As far as the legal parameters and the PH Assoc. general opinion the 45-70 with that load (or any load) does not meet the minimum parameters for a stopping cartridge. Mostly, it lacks the sectional density. With that in mind, I have personally taken at least one of each of the aforementioned animals without the need for "back-up" shots from another rifle.

In this same spirit, I am your coordinator for the Leverguns Safari and I can take care of your buffalo hunt too whenever you are ready. Just call me or PM me for info or details.

Joe

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu May 22, 2008 7:19 pm

Nice to have expert advice like 86ers, isn't it. I have hunted with him once, and you will have fun.

H&R BANG · Post by **H&R BANG** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:17 pm

Let me put it another way. Say you make a good shot at say 50 yards on a nice buff. At the hit, he turns right at you on a dead run. Would you rather have in your hands:

A. 45-70 lever action
B. 375 H&H (or 375 Ruger) bolt action

Either with any load you desire

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:21 pm

what would I rather have in my hands?

the uppermost branches of a sturdy tree

would you be much better off with a 500gr bullet, that will take sectional density from .28 to .35, I would think you would punch his brains out through his @ with a lump of lead that big.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:36 pm

gundownunder wrote:what would I rather have in my hands?

the uppermost branches of a sturdy tree

I was thinking .50BMG and a clean pair of undies...

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:55 pm

H&R BANG wrote:Let me put it another way. Say you make a good shot at say 50 yards on a nice buff. At the hit, he turns right at you on a dead run. Would you rather have in your hands:

A. 45-70 lever action
B. 375 H&H (or 375 Ruger) bolt action

Either with any load you desire

Speaking from zero Cape Buffalo experience, I'd rather have the one with the most momentum, which is the 45-70, and I think I'd like to be using a 500 grain bullet.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu May 22, 2008 11:01 pm

Accurate Reloading Forums has an African forum where there are a bunch of nice fellows who can tell you all about how great the 45-70 is on Cape Buffalo, you might go over there and post.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu May 22, 2008 11:24 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Accurate Reloading Forums has an African forum where there are a bunch of nice fellows who can tell you all about how great the 45-70 is on Cape Buffalo, you might go over there and post.

BAD Frank....BAD, BAD

(I'm glad the twister didn't knock you off)

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:12 am

gundownunder wrote:what would I rather have in my hands?

the uppermost branches of a sturdy tree

.

Another keyboard soaked with coffee!

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:45 am

game keeper wrote:
gundownunder wrote:what would I rather have in my hands?

the uppermost branches of a sturdy tree

.
Another keyboard soaked with coffee!

Well better than wetting the seat

!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:37 am

Since the fire control for a Vulcan wasn't a choice I'd take the levergun, but only cause I'd be more familiar with it.

I can't remember when it was but I want to say about a year and a half ago Brian Pearce wrote a really good two part article in "Rifle" Magazine about his trip to Africa using a .45-70 and Garret Penetrator rounds. To make a long story short he killed two cape buffalo. The first one was intended, then second just happened to be standing behind the first. Both went down.

... and welcome to Leverguns. Don't ya just love those Handi Rifles?

Montanan · Post by **Montanan** » Fri May 23, 2008 5:40 am

I would have no problem using my 1895G with a proper load from either Randy Garrett @ Garrett Cartridges or Tim Sundles @ Buffalo Bore Ammunition.

maddog · Post by **maddog** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:18 am

sore shoulder, shame on you

Can't you see he's only made 2 posts, and yer sendin him to AR? They'll eat his shorts for lunch!

Bang, all the funnin aside, I leave in 6 wks. for a plains game safari in RSA, and I'm taking my guide gun with handloaded 300 gr. nosler partitions. If you want to read a good one, go to AR, look in the leveraction rifle section, and look for a post about corecpa and his buff/hippo with a guide gun.

maddog

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:25 am

Marlin Question...

Can the Marlin 1895 action handle these loads, or are these beyond that class?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:28 am

maddog, figured I'd break him in early.

AJMD, absolutely. None of those loads are anywhere near what the 1895 will handle on a steady basis. Have you read McPhersons remarks on the 1895?

86er · Post by **86er** » Fri May 23, 2008 8:15 am

There are two issues with using the 500 gr + bullets in the situation described. The first is that most are not a solid bullet but a cast bullet. In spite of some "guarantees" that certain bullets will penetrate end to end I have a whole cast bullet collection of those recovered from buffalo. There are no other offerings for 45-70 in that weight class that I am aware of. The second is that the frontal shot gives two options. One is the brain, the second is the "V" shot. The V shot is aiming at the point of the neck and brisket. This is a maybe stopping shot where the brain, if hit is an always stopping shot. On either at very close range, it is my opinion that more velocity creates more ancillary destruction of surrounding tissue. If you narrowly miss the spine, heart or brain you can still disrupt the neurological system enough to make your escape. It is absolutely possible to do it with cast bullets of any weight, but I feel the odds are increased slightly (and I'll take all odds in my favor under those circumstances) with velocity. That is why I recommend the 400 gr class SOLIDS like punch or the few tungsten jacketed solid bullets available. In the 500 gr weight class the Speer Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer excels. Punch is available from Grizzly ($95 box) and Tungsten solid from Garrett ($185 box). This is also why I stagger my loading with bonded core and solids.

To answer your question, I would want the rifle I am most confident and proficient with. The one that makes it easiest for me to hit the animal at close range. If you look back to your TX gathering with RKrodle, we shot a charging buffalo target. I was able to fire 5 killing shots using full power ammo in around 7 seconds throughout a charge that started at 20 yards or so, the last shot being fired at feet, not yards. Many of the other shooters were able to shoot 4 or 5 good shots with their respective lever guns before the buffalo "got them". The bolt rifles were actually very close to the 4-5 shots once the guys practiced a little.

Kirk's logic that follows is pretty good and scientifically sound.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri May 23, 2008 8:38 am

Here are a couple more thoughts about using the 45-70 against a charging Cape Buffalo, from a fellow who has zero experience with those critters, but lot of experience shooting all kinds of interesting things and materials with the 45-70. In other words, they are just thoughts, not words of experience or wisdom.

First, if a Cape Buff were closing in on me, I'm assuming it would be coming relatively straight on. I start thinking 'brain shot' whenever contemplating a charge coming straight toward me that I want to stop. In my experience with bear, deer, dogs, and steers, the only thing that guarantees an animal will instantly drop is either a brain or spine shot. If the head is low, then either may be an option. If the head is high, then the brain might be accessible up the nasal passage, or the spine might be accessible via the throat. The closest thing to a Cape Buff I've ever brain-shot straight on is a large steer. Our cattle ranged free on just over 620 acres of fenced pasture and never saw people much all summer, so when it came time to drop a nice steer for the freezer, it was a little difficult to get close. I did drop one with a 43 Mauser shooting a 385 grain cast bullet at about 1,350 fps. It went straight in, through the brain, and continued down the spinal column, pulverizing it as it went along. The steer dropped on the spot.

Problem: It seems to me that that massive horn mass on the top of the Cape Buff's head is going to make for a significant amount of reinforced bone structure in the upper skull, making a Cape Buff's brain a lot more protected than a 1,200 pound steer. I've heard tell that bullets, even the 458 Magnum, just bounce off a Cape Buff's head. Personally, I'd like to see the documentation on that. Be that as it may, I've had the pleasure of shooting up an old concrete dam with one of my 45-70's and I was amazed at the size of concrete chunks that those heavy bullets could break off and the size of the craters they left. I'm thinking that if it is really true that the 500 grain 458 Mag bullets bounce off the heads of Cape Buff, then it must have been a) a shallow angle and b) they were round nose bullets. Call me naive, but I'm thinking that a 500 grain bullet with a wide meplat, is going to cut into a skull, rather than deflect. So if I were to use a 45-70 for Cape Buff, and not just for a stalking shot, but for a stopping shot (brain or spine shot), I'd prefer a 500 grain, flat nose (i.e. wide meplat) bullet at moderate velocities (1,500 to 1,800 fps). Like I said, I may be naive and I'm certainly ignorant when it comes to Cape Buff, but you got my free opinion, which ain't worth much.

Edit: I wrote this before reading 86'er's latest post. Now I'll go read his post and get educated.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:05 am

Kirk, as to the .458wm, I read somewhere that it got a bad reputation in the beginning due to some really awfull factory loadings that probably did bounce. Some of them barely made it out of the muzzle IIRC.

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:21 am

I have just recently bought a 1895GS, and while I can't give any help here, it is helping me a lot. Thank you all for your information.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:25 am

During one of my shooting sessions at W.R.Weaver, with the .458 Win. Mag.
I noticed something funny at the first shot, no visible damage.
2nd shot something funny, what is going on?
3rd shot, same feeling , but now dust was rolling back up the tunnel from 100 yards.
I locked the shield/ door down; I HAD the ONLY key.
Went upstairs, walked 100 yards through the factory; went into the target room.
The janatorial crew had been in cleaning the target room, yesterday ( Friday )
I always shot on Saturday, they had neglected to re-pile the sand back up; and I shot 3 overlapping gaping holes ( craters ) in steel re-inforced, pre- stressed concrete.
Massive damge to the wall!

crs · Post by **crs** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:30 am

Another two bits on bullets:
There are some excellent 450 gr solids and FMJ available for the .45-70.
For instance:
North Fork Bullets has a cup nose all copper solid specifically for cape buffalo, but likely very effective on Elephant also.
Alaska Bulletworks Kodiak flat nose FMJ also looks like a winner in a 45-70 or 45-90.
Lots of choices out there and you should read this article by Paco on the .45-70 for large and dangerous game.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... erguns.htm

Have fun and practice, practice, practice!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:39 am

There are two issues with using the 500 gr + bullets in the situation described. The first is that most are not a solid bullet but a cast bullet. In spite of some "guarantees" that certain bullets will penetrate end to end I have a whole cast bullet collection of those recovered from buffalo.

This is very interesting to me. Can you classify those cast bullets by caliber and weight? Ballpark tendencies would be great.

It would be one thing if those captured bullets are 300 to 350 grains, and quite another if they're 500 to 600 grains. You are in a unique position to help sort this out, and I am very curious about it.

Thanks

Grizz

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:07 pm

Seems to me that the question should be "is this load a good cape buff load?", not is it an adequate buff stopping load. The reason that I say this is that the hunter has a PH with a bonnefide stopper right behind him...

And I don't think anybody mentioned this load: the Corebon Penetrator - 400 grain load - I believe IIRC that Brian Pearce detailed it's use in Africa on one of his trips - from an Marlin 95 with a low power scope. He was quite complimentary of the load. Its a thickly jacketed flat nosed bullet at 2100 fps again IIRC.

86'r- you have any experience with that one? Maybe that'd be a good load for him to check?

ETA - I checked the Corebon web site - the penetrator load is actually 405 grains and 1600 fps - not 2100....

86er · Post by **86er** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:18 pm

Grizz - I am not sure what you're asking but in regard the the recovered cast bullets from buffalo: they are in vary states of disarray. Anything from broken in half to smeared down to the lube grooves. The smearing and chipping is obviously greatly exaggerated if the bullet hits bone. Some that started 500 grains weight 1/2 or slightly less. Performance overall is inconsistent. For broadside h/l shots the performance is fairly repeatable, but through some bones in the mix or make it a frontal shot and all predictions go out the window.

OSOK - I forgot about Cor-Bon's bullet specifically but that is one of them that falls into my 400 gr class parameters.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:27 pm

I've seen that wearing action on a smaller scale, a CNS shot on a deer with a 352g cast bullet. The bullet was eroded, but it took out 4 vertebrae doing it and the animal was dead before it arrived in the landing zone.

Thanks for the info.

Grizz

Retro · Post by **Retro** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:30 pm

KirkD wrote: Problem: It seems to me that that massive horn mass on the top of the Cape Buff's head is going to make for a significant amount of reinforced bone structure in the upper skull

Not being an expert (actually, I don't have any desire to go after a buff) as far as I know if you manage to penetrate the horn somehow your shot will go over the brain by a fair amount.

Your earlier "aim for the nose" statement echos what the people who are supposed to know, say.

Me? An RPG. Bolt or lever, I don't mind :-)

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:03 pm

Retro, I'm sure you are right, judging from where I think the brain is (if it is in the same location as a steer). Shooting for the horn mass would be a mistake. It has been a long time since I've had a big Charlois or Hereford bull upset at me, but if I recall correctly, they swung their head from side to side as they came, with head slightly down, while tossing dirt up over their backs with their front hooves. This would rule out an up-the-nose shot, but might increase the angle to make penetration of the skull into the brain easier, with less chance of glancing off. Of course, if the head is moving from side to side, it would be a more challenging target. On the other hand, I know diddly about shooting Cape Buff, so should probably stop opining.

H&R BANG · Post by **H&R BANG** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:51 am

Hey, all this is great. What I gather from the discussion is the 45-70 is probably equal to the 375 in stopping power, but is easier to shoot quickly. From the old Peter Capstick books (Death in the Long Grass), the aiming point for a charging buff is the nose as the horn boss covers the brain.

This may only be my third post here, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night!

Now to decide, Guide gun or regular 22"? In either case, I will use a 2.5x Leupold Scout Scope on a XO mount.

Thanks Everyone

encore4me · Post by **encore4me** » Sat May 24, 2008 5:58 pm

Check this out!
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp

Matt

TomD · Post by **TomD** » Sat May 24, 2008 9:20 pm

I think Lupo got a lot of people thinking. Still doesn't do much for the proposition of a real stopping rifle.

The cartridge is close but no cigar. 50 AK is the real deal. Even over on the accuracy forum they seem willing to bow to the 50 AK. The 475 turnbull hits the numbers.

Even with the right cartridge a Marlin will take a lot of customizing and petting to make the grade. It's a bit like the 1911 in that it has a number of superior features, but the weak ones take some watching. It's unlike the 1911 in never having been a battle proven/intended design in the first place. Of course the Mausers, and Enfields when converted to DGR use have the advantage of having been designed from the floorplate up as battle rifles.

I think the biggest issue has to do with what the rifle choice will do to the trip itself. Some PHs (aledgedly) have seen the light and bought lever action rifles after seeing them in use. They have made some converts out there, at least to the extent that there is interest. If a guide is willing to work with you, that's great. If a guide just sees your choice of weapon as one more reason to elbow you aside when the going gets interesting, then what have you gained by your choice?

The guide has to decide whether your rifle choice marks you as someone to watch, or someone to watch over. When a guy like Turnbull shows up in Africa, well at least there is a convincing commercial reason for his choice, if I was a guide I could understand that; Plus he is a well known gunsmith so a guide might realize that Turnbull knows a thing or two about guns, and not just levers; Probably Turnbull has a few clients who have hunted with PHs who could also introduce him. The average guy grabing a guide gun to hunt in Africa isn't going to warrant the same reception.