Firearms design

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:04 am

Wayne Miller's post about his Spencer got me to thinking. So as I was whipping up a quadruple batch of banana bread for this afternoon's activity and then tossing together a bit of "pollo al Pablo" for lunch I had plenty of time to cogitate. As I recall, ol' Spencer was a civilian who came up with an ingenious repeating rifle, carried it right into the Whitehouse and convinced Lincoln to try it out and then pressure the Army to adopt it. And he was not by far the only civilian arms inventor. The modern percussion cap was invented by a Presbyterian minister - IIRC. Sam'l Colt reportedly carved out the model for his first revolver while aboard a civilian ship. J.M. Browning was just a small town boy who had a bent for coming up with varying methods of launching leaden projectiles - including a full auto gas operated levergun (Model 73 Winchester lightly adapted IIRC) The two military men who are responsible in great part for modern firearms were Berdan and Boxer who came up with reloadable brass cartridges of a reasonably simple design (the Boxer being superior in many ways for that purpose).

So, in days gone by, we had a plethora of gun designers who were "mere tinkerers" and lowly civilians to boot. Just think where we'd be (or not) if civilians hadn't had an urge to improve upon weapon design. And yet today, in the US at least, if you as a civilian were to start seeking a way to invent an improved, modern firearm system you'd be tossed in the clink and the key tossed away. In today's climate you'd probably run the risk of being shipped of to Guantanamo Bay as a "terrorist".

But I digress. My intention was to ask about various civilian originated firearms or component designs. Here's the one's that come to my unschooled mind.

1. Percussion Cap
2. Revolving Pistol
3. Leveraction repeater (Volcanic, Henry, Winchester, Spencer - all civliian designs I believe)
4. 1911 semi-auto pistol (built for the military by Browning - a civilian)

So what other notable inventions in the firearms world were the result of some civilian looking for a better "mouse trap"? Just think how poor our world would be if it were not for the contributions of nonmilitary people in the firearms world.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:16 am

I believe Bill Ruger converted a Savage 99 into an auto-loader - leading to his development of the Ruger Standard .22 Auto pistol (admittedly after the lines of the Colt Woodsman), years later after he was funded by his buddy, Alex Sturm.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:19 am

What about the guy who did the M1 carbine. Williams ?

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:22 am

Pete44ru wrote:I believe Bill Ruger converted a Savage 99 into an auto-loader - leading to his development of the Ruger Standard .22 Auto pistol (admittedly after the lines of the Colt Woodsman), years later after he was funded by his buddy, Alex Sturm.

Oh yes, I forgot Mr. "10 rounds in pistols and five in rifles for civilians" Ruger...

It amused me to see such an elitist attitude in someone who started out messing around with a junked WWI era machine gun he picked up outside the local VFW post. And he has had a TREMENDOUS influence on firearms through his various pistols and rifles.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:45 am

What about Mr. Gatling?

Oops, I should say Dr. Gatling

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:52 am

The 50 BMG sniper rifle is a civilian design that the military adapted. It was made by a bunch of guys who wanted to throw big chunks of lead long distances.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:58 am

AmBraCol wrote: Oh yes, I forgot Mr. "10 rounds in pistols and five in rifles for civilians" Ruger... It amused me to see such an elitist attitude in someone who started out messing around with a junked WWI era machine gun he picked up outside the local VFW post. And he has had a TREMENDOUS influence on firearms through his various pistols and rifles.

I share the same respect/disrespect for Ruger for the same reasons...

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:15 pm

I have one word for you: Kalashnikov.

He was a tinkering farmer long before he signed up for the service.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:18 pm

Andrew wrote:I have one word for you: Kalashnikov.

Was he a civilian? I read an article on him a while back and IIRC they ascribed to him a military rank. But I could be mistaken. There's no doubt about the effect of his design on world politics and wars and such.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:29 pm

Hiram Maxim

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:33 pm

Yeah, I consider him a not so much but he did put on a uniform. I guess this doesn't include him then. I will think harder now.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat May 24, 2008 1:04 pm

Ok, I had to cheat and do some digging but here he is...

August Fiedler (Stronsdorf): Forestry commissioner of Prince Reuss, who managed to build the first telescopic sight that really did work.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat May 24, 2008 1:17 pm

I think the one man who had the biggest effect on the free world would be Eugene Stoner. I have a book which covers a great deal about him called "The Great Black Rifle Controversy." The writer of the book says that the m-16 family was the first U.S. rifle that was developed out side a U.S Armory. I'm not sure how true that it and it might be some what off as far as the quote is concerned but the statement I'd say is mostly true.

sureshot · Post by **sureshot** » Sat May 24, 2008 1:18 pm

Wasn't John Garand a civilian machinist when he began designing firearms? Later on he was a civilian consultant to the Springfield Armory when he designed the M-1, the rifle used by our greatest generation to literally save the world in WWII.

I'll be thinking a lot about those guys this weekend.

Steve

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:12 pm

Stoner IIRC was in aviation engineering.. knew how to work aluminum ...But I think Maxim's Machine Gun's have had a greater impact than Stoner's

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:21 pm

Interesting post. I was just sitting here with my wife using the amazing amount of information on the internet to show her how a flintlock worked. She happened to notice in one of the articles that a Scottish reverend invented the percussion cap because he kept losing birds when they alerted to the soind of the flint striking. It went on to say that the flintlock remained the primary ignition system here in the US up until the War between the States. I specualted this was due to the lack of availablity of caps on the frontier and otherwised to poor folk. With the production of them being standardized and really advenced during the war this led to a better and cheaper supply afterwards.

I also read that at the time the flintlock was in regular use that a pendulum clock and a flintlock would have been the most advanced pieces of technology owned by the common folk.

I have been looking at flintlock and percussion kits for a good part of the morning. We afre building a new cabin/house, and I was commenting this morning that I'd like a set of functioning dueling pistols and flintlock for display.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:33 pm

Andrew wrote:I have one word for you: Kalashnikov.

He was a tinkering farmer long before he signed up for the service.

But, he did design the basic weapon when he was a tanker recouperaiting from battle wounds. Bit of a grey area on him.

What about Stoner. He was a Marine, and he designed the AR series. The M-16 wasn't exactly stellar in it's initial large scale outing.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:42 pm

Uziel Gal 1923-2002
http://files.uzitalk.com/reference/pages/uzielgal.htm

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:44 pm

jeepnik wrote:
Andrew wrote:I have one word for you: Kalashnikov.

He was a tinkering farmer long before he signed up for the service.
But, he did design the basic weapon when he was a tanker recouperaiting from battle wounds. Bit of a grey area on him.

What about Stoner. He was a Marine, and he designed the AR series. The M-16 wasn't exactly stellar in it's initial large scale outing.

The M16 is still not "stellar", and the ongoing trials at Aberdeen for a new replacement of some type are still ongoing. However it's what we have so we work within it's limitations. It's already been proven the HK design upper is far superior to the current M16/M4.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:49 pm

And my favorite double action revolver.

Karl R. Lewis
http://www.rareguncollection.com/

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Sat May 24, 2008 4:26 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
AmBraCol wrote: Oh yes, I forgot Mr. "10 rounds in pistols and five in rifles for civilians" Ruger... It amused me to see such an elitist attitude in someone who started out messing around with a junked WWI era machine gun he picked up outside the local VFW post. And he has had a TREMENDOUS influence on firearms through his various pistols and rifles.
I share the same respect/disrespect for Ruger for the same reasons...

I've always wondered how much of it was really Bill Ruger. His lawyer, Steve Sanetti, has always struck me as the one behind all of the poorest decisions at Ruger. Don't they call the crappy Ruger triggers "Sanetti" triggers? As I understand it, Sanetti has stepped down from his controlling position at Ruger and now, lo and behold, they are selling 20 round magazines with Mini-14s. I'm suspicious of his pro-gun credentials. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he was bending Bill Ruger's ear in the direction of appeasement during the Clinton CB94 era.

Have Ruger triggers improved now that Sanetti is gone? If so, would one attribute that more to market pressure driven by Savage and their move toward a finer trigger on their rifles?

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Sat May 24, 2008 4:39 pm

Gaston (sp) Glock! He was making polymer curtain rods, when he heard that the austrian army was looking for a new sidearm he threw together a design that is what we now know as the glock 17.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat May 24, 2008 4:44 pm

I thought Al Gore invented the self contained cartridge just before he invented the internet ???

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat May 24, 2008 5:00 pm

Chuck 100 yd wrote:I thought Al Gore invented the self contained cartridge just before he invented the internet ???

Funny, but Al Gore is really just a self-contained BS spreader.

On topic, John Browning towers above them all, cilivian or otherwise. Kalashnikov definately armed the third world and Sam Colt brought in the industrial revolution, but even Sam owes John browning for most of Colt success now. (1911). Even Oliver Winchester owes his success to Browning. Winchester actually bought something like 15 patents from Browning and never brought them to production and never intended to. He just didn't want anyone else to produce them.

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:03 pm

What about Johnson, Melvin I think? Made a neat semi-auto rifle and tried to replace the M1Garand, was too late, however some were made for Netherlands. He also made the Johnson Light Machine gun which the Marine Raiders did love. He has other stuff to his credit as well.

Mokwaw · Post by **Mokwaw** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:11 pm

Don't forget Ken Tucky lots of front stuffers named after him......

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Sat May 24, 2008 9:00 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Chuck 100 yd wrote:I thought Al Gore invented the self contained cartridge just before he invented the internet ???
Funny, but Al Gore is really just a self-contained BS spreader.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:16 am

salvo wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Chuck 100 yd wrote:I thought Al Gore invented the self contained cartridge just before he invented the internet ???
Funny, but Al Gore is really just a self-contained BS spreader.

Yep, and some hot BS, too.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:24 am

Philip Luty - designer of the "only hand tools required" stock-steel-tubing "Expedient" 9mm Submachinegun.

Have they let him out of the Tower yet Nath?

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:39 am

How about the Mauser Brothers? There model '98 is arguably the best bolt gun design ever conceived, and a inspiration to many others.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun May 25, 2008 7:33 am

[Don't forget Ken Tucky lots of front stuffers named after him...... ]

Nope.

All the above posted are inarguably some of the best firearms designers who ever lived, but my hat's off to a virtual unknown - Cletus A. Tarbox, who in 1736 (when caught with a new gun by his wife) invented the "new gun excuse" - of which there are now at least 10, 473 variations.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:30 pm

Great topic here. I did a little research on the percussion cap; it was indeed the Rev. A.J. Forsyth of Scotland who invented this. A civilian.

Another biggie in the world of civilian arms making was Eliphalet Remington. His contributions are often overlooked, but he did more than just come up with a new company. When he founded Remington Arms (and son) in 1816 he had begun work on what would become the first truly interchangeable barrels.

A lot of folks don't realize this, and the kids in school will NEVER be taught this, but the Industrial Revolution in American began with the firearms industry. I think this is incredibly cool ! Interchangeable parts, and all that this advance brought to the country owes much to Remington, and later, men like Whitney and Colt.

On another subtopic, Bill Ruger has been mentioned here. Boy is this a tough one. I have great respect for the memory of the man, as he was truly devoted to producing a rock solid product for the average man. And I believe the poster who noted that it was Sanetti who was the motivater behind most of the lawyerly stuff that we haven't liked from Ruger. I remember reading that Ruger was personally hurt when he learned that one of the shooters in the famous Miami FBI shootout of 1986 was using one his Mini 14's. Right after that, no more factory 20 rounders.

And yes, it is interesting that now we can buy them again. Strange politics there. I just hope that the bean counters and lawyers, who always seem to survive like cockroaches after atomic testing, don't discontinue every good firearm that Ruger ever built. There sometimes seems to be no sense to the decisions made there.

To get back on point, it seems to me that the majority of the weapons the U.S. military has relied on for a century and a half have been civilian designed arms. And, if the military hire a designer out of the private sector, is he really a "government designer"? I don't think so.

This is a great thread. Carry on gents. - DixieBoy

Savage99 · Post by **Savage99** » Sun May 25, 2008 2:26 pm

If were talking assault weapons then I'd have to say Kalashnikov..he also designed A round counter for artillery and tanks..A device we stole and use to this day..

If were talikng leverguns then it's john Browning and Henry..
Bolt guns would have to go to Mauser.
For heavy machine guns it's both Browning and Mauser..They both stole and used each other designs..
For auto cannons I'd go with Bofors..
Revolvers I vote for Colt, pistols it's got to be Browning..

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sun May 25, 2008 4:34 pm

Arthur W Savage & Charles Newton

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Sun May 25, 2008 7:01 pm

Great topic.

This was an interesting feller:
Mikhail Vladimirovich Margolin, designer of the Margolin .22 pistol - he was totally blind -

James Paris Lee should not be overlooked.

Paul Jenkins · Post by **Paul Jenkins** » Sun May 25, 2008 7:35 pm

Gentlemen,
You all forgot the MOST important; The Mauser Bros. Shame!

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Sun May 25, 2008 8:00 pm

There are many civilians producing weapons today. Unfortunately they go directly to government or exportation. The De Groats here in Grants New Mexico are manufacturers of miniguns and supressors. hopefully when the Suprimes come back with a progun ruling many of these draconian laws will fall by the wayside.