OT - Joe Horn Cleared By Pasadina (TX) Grand Jury

[don Tomás]

Anybody remember this self defense case from last year? I remember having mixed feelings at the time, but I didn't have all the facts like the Grand Jury...
Tom

Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings

A Harris County grand jury decided today that Joe Horn should not be charged with a crime for shooting two suspected burglars he confronted outside his neighbor's home in Pasadena last fall.

The decision to clear Horn of wrongdoing came two weeks after the grand jury began considering evidence in the case, including Horn's testimony last week.

Horn, a 62-year-old retiree, became the focus of an intense public debate after the Nov. 14 shootings. Many supporters praised him as a hero for using deadly force to protect property, while others dismissed him as a killer who should have heeded a 911 operator's instructions to stay in his house and wait for police.

Horn called authorities after hearing breaking glass and seeing two men climb through a window into his next-door neighbor's home in the 7400 block of Timberline.

The 911 operator urged Horn to remain inside, but he went outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and came face-to-face with Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 38.

According to a transcript of Horn's 911 call, which he made about 2 p.m., the operator repeatedly urged Horn to stay in his house, but Horn said he did not believe it would be right to let the burglars get away.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn can be heard telling the operator. "You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

The operator replies: "Don't go outside."

Then the tape records Horn warning someone: "Move and you're dead!" Two quick shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then a third shot.

Pasadena police Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett said a few weeks after the shooting that a plainclothes detective had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He said the detective saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.

It appeared that neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present, Corbett said.

"It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (getaway driver). He ducked at one point."

When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.

Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."

Ortiz and Torres died a short distance from Horn's house, both shot in the back.

As the grand jury began hearing evidence in the case this month, Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright, said recently that Horn regrets his decision to confront the men.

"Was it a mistake from a legal standpoint? No. But a mistake in his life? Yes," Lambright said. "Because it's affected him terribly. And if he had it to do over again, he would stay inside.

"I don't think anybody can really appreciate the magnitude that something like this has on a person's personality."

Lambright said Horn didn't expect to be involved in a shooting, but rather expected to see the two men running or driving away.

"He thought he was gathering evidence for the police department," Lambright said.

The shooting brought hundreds of protesters to the Village Grove East subdivision where Horn lives with his daughter and her family. One protest included supporters of Houston activist Quanell X and motorcyclists countering his remarks. The protest which brought hundreds to the neighborhood led to the Pasadena City Council to approve a city ordinance banning protests in front of a residential home.

Aside from the shooting itself, the national debate revolved around the fact that Ortiz and Torres were illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres had been sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999.

[Cliff]

I am glad Mr. Horn was cleared in this shooting case. Yes he should have stayed in the house but I wasn't there and don't know the facts. I feel he does feel bad and it will bother him for a long time. So much on this incident was hyped as racist actions etc. Glad the Grand Jury was able to sort through all the hype. I imagine there will still be lawyer actions by the relatives of this man. It cannot be easy to have to kill someone. But it can be costly no matter the outcome. Good Luck Mr. Horn.

[Griff]

On a positive note, they won't be testifying, nor cutting a deal to victimize the rest of us. Joe done good. (Even if he did go about it poorly).

[TomF]

I was hoping the good people of our state would not indict him. Victory for Joe and common sense. The last paragraph of Don Tomas' post says much. Our government should take heed and deal with the illegals in our country.


Aside from the shooting itself, the national debate revolved around the fact that Ortiz and Torres were illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres had been sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999.

TomF

[Premo]

Once again, justice prevails in the Great State of Texas. A clear warning to all criminals.

[Leverdude]

No charges.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story? ... 638&page=1

[JP_TX]

Joe used the "Texas Defense" and as it often does in Texas, if not everywhere, It worked.

Good news.

JP

[FWiedner]

I'm sorry to hear that Mr. Horn has bad feelings about his actions.

My cynical nature says that he is required to have bad feelings or be forced to endure greater legal scrutiny. I'm sure that if he stood on the hood of his truck crowing about how happy he is about scratching two illegal scumbag thieves, and confessed that he had been getting drunk and tip-toeing out at night to take memorial leaks on the spots where they died, the grand jury might have been less sympathetic.

Thus sayth the law for civilians, "Thou shalt regret doing right".

I hope he deals with it, but like I said, IMO he did exactly what he should have done.

I'm glad that a jury of his peers and neighbors see it the same way.

[Old Time Hunter]

Loved your take on that Fred.

[JerryB]

I read the article,that is good news.

[Ysabel Kid]

The only thing that bothers me is that both were shot in the back. I have no problem with honest citizens dispatching criminals, and personally, I feel that theft of any personal property warrants such a response. We did it that way in the past - and had a heck of a lot less property thefts. Perps will think twice knowing that if caught by a homeowner - or neighbor - they should fear for their lives.

That being said, the shots in the back still make me wonder. Granted, the charging man could have turned at the last second. But two doing the same? What worries me isn't the loss of two criminal illegal aliens, but rather, that is casts a shadow on all proper defensive uses of firearms. This is the kind of stuff the anti's eat up. Yes, we as responsible, law-abiding armed citizens are held to a higher standard. But then again, we are a higher standard and should hold ourselves to such marks.

I won't be losing any sleep over this. Hope Mr. Horn doesn't either...

[AJMD429]

I'm sorry to hear that Mr. Horn has bad feelings about his actions.

My cynical nature says that he is required to have bad feelings or be forced to endure greater legal scrutiny. I'm sure that if he stood on the hood of his truck crowing about how happy he is about scratching two illegal scumbag thieves, and confessed that he had been getting drunk and tip-toeing out at night to take memorial leaks on the spots where they died, the grand jury might have been less sympathetic.

Thus sayth the law for civilians, "Thou shalt regret doing right".

I hope he deals with it, but like I said, IMO he did exactly what he should have done.

I'm glad that a jury of his peers and neighbors see it the same way.

Yep - do the right thing, but act "sorry" - isn't that something that we've come to expect that?

Still, I'd have likely stayed in my own house, except during my testosterone-toxic years (teens and twenties) when I would probably have done the same (stupid) thing.

Stupid maybe, but criminal, nope.

[Ysabel Kid]

You and don Tomas must have been browsing the same news today!

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=8144

[brucew44guns]

Those two robbers didn't have any idea that their day was going to take a sudden turn for the worse. Nice to see it was illegals who probably were the worst sort of trash, the kind the "authorities" have such a hard time stopping at the border.

[TedH]

Good news indeed.

[lever-4-life]

Im with Ysabel, I think It's great that he was cleared, but I do wonder about shots in the back.

[Leverdude]

You and don Tomas must have been browsing the same news today!

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=8144

Yep, he got the catchier headline tho.

[oldmax]

I would like to see the house burglery statistics for the area , pre & post incident...

[243dave]

Heck, Joe should have been allowed to shoot all protesters too!! Who wants that kind of trash in the neighborhood? Dave

[44LVR]

I heard on the boob tube this morning that since the locals aren't going to do anything, the Feds are going to be looking into it.

44

[Leverdude]

How do they get jurisdiction?

[Old Ironsights]

How do they get jurisdiction?

"Civil Rights".

Some Liberal/Reconquista Weenie is going to say it was a Federal Hate Crime.

[Leverdude]

How is it that civil rights only matter to feds when its racial?

States & cities can take away gun rights but if something looks like it might be discriminatory in a racial way they are all over it. Bush should pardon him if they convict him of anything.

I dont think it could be realistically prosecuted as a race crime. He talked for 20 minutes or so & never once used racial language.

[Rexster]

There are still places and circumstances where it is legal to shoot fleeing felons. The case of Garner versus Tennessee, which addresses the shooting of fleeing felons, applies to police officers, not private citizens. Grand jury proceedings in Texas are secret, so we will not know certain details of this incident, ever. Mr. Horn is a senior citizen, who by definition is more vulnerable to injury than a younger man, plus he was outnumbered. He may have heard or seen something we have not been told by the new media.

There is also the reaction time factor. A young adult typically has a reaction time of three-quarters of a second, and older folks have a bigger gap. Just as it takes .75 sec for the brain to perceive something, and tell the body to react to it, it also takes this same amount of time to perceive a change in circumstances, and send the message to change the course of action. Talking while taking physical action can double this reactionary gap, and we have ample evidence that Mr. Horn was yelling commands at the burglars.

I am simply speculating at this point, but it could be that Mr. Horn did not want to shoot anyone in the back, but was already swinging his shotgun, and executing his brain's plan to deal with a threat. In the one to two seconds it would take to change his mind, the shots could have been fired. Remember, this is speculation on my part. Whether he wanted to shoot anyone in the back or not, the law was on his side.

I will give Mr. Horn the benefit of the doubt, based on both the law and the science. I am quite sure he wishes he had let the police handle it. Ironically, there was a plainclothed officer in front of the residence, who has stated he wanted to stay back because he knew Mr. Horn was armed, and might have thought the officer was an accomplice.

[Whit Spurzon]

I believe a criminal should expect that his profession IS dangerous and could cost him his life. The current attitude seems to be that individuals are not responsible for their own actions. It is a fact that habitual criminals have little fear of laws or law enforcers.

What if Joe Horn had NOT shot these criminals? Home many more homes would have been broken into? How many more victims would there have been? What if their crimes escalated and became violent?

A little over a year ago we had a criminal who terrorized our community. He had broken into dozens of homes, made the local news and alluded police. Two of my neighbors were victimized by this individual and the rest of us were feared for our safety and our property. In one of the break-ins he stole a gun. At that point the community rose up and put the police on notice that they better catch him soon because he may not survive an encounter with the public.

He was eventually caught, but recently escaped detention. The gun was never recovered so there are several that I am aware of that will shoot him on sight. I feel sorry for the kid but it appears he is beyond rehabilitation. Chances are he will never contribute anything positive to society so a Joe Horn would probably be a hero around here too.

[bigbore442001]

I wonder if anyone from the Columbian Consulate has filed a formal protest?

Maybe this will send a clear message to any illegal aliens who decide to take up "night work".

[Poohgyrr]

ortiz and torres were illegal :::: torres had been sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999. TomF

ortiz and torres were real badguy predators. I did not capitalize their names because a real Man does not do those things. I wish Mr. Horn had not been forced into that situation, but ortiz and torres made their choice. It is wrong to punish victims of crooks - and ortiz and torres had proved they were crooks. Now my family is safe from them.

Our best the elderly Mr. Horn.

[gundownunder]

Its good that Mr Horn feels regret.
He would be a very callous, cold blooded human if he could gun down two men and feel nothing, irespective of whether he was right or not.
If there was a cop on site maybe the cop should have done his job instead of leaving it to an aged citizen to do it for him.

On the bright side, Mr Horn has ensured that those two won't become habitual criminals.

[Old Savage]

Gotta love those TEXANS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AmBraCol]

Its good that Mr Horn feels regret.
He would be a very callous, cold blooded human if he could gun down two men and feel nothing, irespective of whether he was right or not.
If there was a cop on site maybe the cop should have done his job instead of leaving it to an aged citizen to do it for him.

On the bright side, Mr Horn has ensured that those two won't become habitual criminals.

Well, I can't even put an animal down without feeling regret... Life is precious and can't be replaced. We do well to take that into account BEFORE we pull the trigger. Needless, senseless killing should be avoided at all times. BUT there are times when there's no other way. I filled my tags last time I hunted up north. The first time I ever got a white tail. And I couldn't help but feel the impact of seeing the deer still on the snow. But not a bit was wasted, we enjoyed the venison and I'll go again next time I can. The day I can put an animal down and not feel a bit of regret is the day I'll quit the hunting fields. In the case of defending property at the expense of human life - all I'll say is that I'm glad I'm not in Mr. Horn's shoes. A slight correction, gundownunder - they were already habitual criminals with prior arrest records. But at least they won't continue on in their chosen way of life. They chose poorly and paid for their choice.

Just for the record, I've not heard anything in the press down here (in Colombia) about these two and the way they left this world. I don't know WHY it didn't make the news as anything to do with guns and crime and such tends to get the far left spin in our media (sound familiar?) But neither my wife nor I have heard or read anything about it.

[Griff]

Its good that Mr Horn feels regret.
He would be a very callous, cold blooded human if he could gun down two men and feel nothing, irespective of whether he was right or not.
If there was a cop on site maybe the cop should have done his job instead of leaving it to an aged citizen to do it for him.
On the bright side, Mr Horn has ensured that those two won't become habitual criminals.

...Just for the record, I've not heard anything in the press down here (in Colombia) about these two and the way they left this world. I don't know WHY it didn't make the news as anything to do with guns and crime and such tends to get the far left spin in our media (sound familiar?) But neither my wife nor I have heard or read anything about it.

Maybe they (good Columbians), actually feel some shame that they exported a couple of bad guys? I know that's how I feel when someone from my homeland does an illegal act. And, Paul, I feel the same about my successes in the field. Sadness, joy and thankfulness to have shared in the Lord's bounty. A "Right" attitude to have in my book.

And, to answer the original question, oftentimes when circumstances warrant, the prosecutor will take a case to a Grand Jury for an indictment rather than have the political fallout of prosecuting an unpopular case. Sometimes Grand Juries select cases they want to hear.

[Paladin]

There are still places and circumstances where it is legal to shoot fleeing felons. The case of Garner versus Tennessee, which addresses the shooting of fleeing felons, applies to police officers, not private citizens. Grand jury proceedings in Texas are secret, so we will not know certain details of this incident, ever. Mr. Horn is a senior citizen, who by definition is more vulnerable to injury than a younger man, plus he was outnumbered. He may have heard or seen something we have not been told by the new media.

There is also the reaction time factor. A young adult typically has a reaction time of three-quarters of a second, and older folks have a bigger gap. Just as it takes .75 sec for the brain to perceive something, and tell the body to react to it, it also takes this same amount of time to perceive a change in circumstances, and send the message to change the course of action. Talking while taking physical action can double this reactionary gap, and we have ample evidence that Mr. Horn was yelling commands at the burglars.

I am simply speculating at this point, but it could be that Mr. Horn did not want to shoot anyone in the back, but was already swinging his shotgun, and executing his brain's plan to deal with a threat. In the one to two seconds it would take to change his mind, the shots could have been fired. Remember, this is speculation on my part. Whether he wanted to shoot anyone in the back or not, the law was on his side.

I will give Mr. Horn the benefit of the doubt, based on both the law and the science. I am quite sure he wishes he had let the police handle it. Ironically, there was a plainclothed officer in front of the residence, who has stated he wanted to stay back because he knew Mr. Horn was armed, and might have thought the officer was an accomplice.

Very well put, only us police officers are held to the higher standard due to our training. It is very normal to regret a shooting; you can’t go through life as an honest person being taught “Though Shall Not Kill” and not have it affect you when you do (key work here is honest). It has caused more than a few of my friends over the years to get out of the job after an incident. Having been too many places for the government (part time in job National Guard Special Forces due to law enforcement not paying enough) it is hard to understand how little life means to a very high percentage of the world out side our boarders.