Did SASS kill the Winchester model 94?

[S.B.]

What happened that Winchester quit manufacturing this gun? Cheap imported suedo copies(EMF, Rossie(sp), others)? Or was it that the new shooters of SASS wanted cheaper guns for their sport?
Where are all the good American made guns going?
Why would people from this country turn from old, established, manufactures to imported products? Or, is it the youth of today (yuppies, RUBs if you will on their metric cruisers) that wants something new and cheaper?
I worked for Caterpillar for a couple of years and heard all their propaganda about world economy but now they seem on the ropes? My economy stops at my bank here in America.
Before the flames start, I know I'm in the minority here and I've been in this barrel before (my turn).

[TedH]

I doubt it had anything to do with SASS. 94's are not a big player in that game. I think it had more to do with people being coaxed into believing/or wanting to believe that they needed bigger and bigger rounds with longer and longer range capabilities. If you didn't have a 30 cal. super magnum that shot like a laser out to 400 yards, you just couldn't kill a deer. If they weren't selling in the numbers that made the effort profitable, why continue?

[J Miller]

What happened that Winchester quit manufacturing this gun? Cheap imported suedo copies(EMF, Rossie(sp), others)? Or was it that the new shooters of SASS wanted cheaper guns for their sport?

Well in my opinion the rebounding hammers, cross bolt and tang safety, horrid trigger pulls with problematic miss fire problems, and spotty quality control is what cost USRAC many many customers. I bought my last new Win 94 in 1986. I didn't like the angle eject feature but I could live with it. I despised that rebounding hammer action and replaced it. But when the cross bolt safety came out, that was it. No more Win 94s for me. I won't buy any of the lever guns with rebounding hammers any more. It's just not worth the trouble. As for cowboy action killing the 94, I doubt it. Although USRAC did a good job altering the 94 action for the short cartridges it just wasn't a cas type gun. The long stroke action couldn't be hot rodded like these guys do.

Where are all the good American made guns going?

The companies are either being bought out by richer companies, IE Remington, Marlin, and others; going out of business, or going to foreign owners.

Why would people from this country turn from old, established, manufactures to imported products?

Because the American companies no longer make what we want.

Or, is it the youth of today (yuppies, RUBs if you will on their metric cruisers) that wants something new and cheaper?

Considering how the purchasing ability of the US Dollar has dropped, we all are looking for better value for what money we have to spend. It's not just the yuppies.

I worked for Caterpillar for a couple of years and heard all their propaganda about world economy but now they seem on the ropes? My economy stops at my bank here in America.
Before the flames start, I know I'm in the minority here and I've been in this barrel before (my turn).

My economy is all but non existent. When I have money I do my best to purchase American made products, but if there are none, I buy what will do the job. For instance; if I have a choice of buying a Winchester 94AE 44 Mag with the cross bolt safety or a Rossi Puma with no safeties, I'll take the Puma. Or, do I pay high prices for an original Winchester 1873, or pay a better price for an Italian copy that I can afford?
Joe

[TedH]

I think we are in the minority here Joe. The average guy going out to shoot a deer doesn't care about, or even know what a rebounding hammer is. If he can load it and make it go bang, that's all he cares about. I could be wrong, but I'd bet the safeties and other stuff that the manufacturers do to these guns that make us cringe, don't affect most buyers at all.

[Modoc ED]

Joe made an excellent point about misfires with the Winchester 94AE rebounding hammers -- light primer strikes to be more exact. Actually, the cross-bolt safety does not bother me that much but it is a pain to buy a rifle and then have to modify it almost right away to avoid light hammer strikes.

I believe a settlement between Winchester and Rick Jamison (sp?) concerning short magnums may have had something to do with Winchester closing their facilities in CT.

[505stevec]

I think the 94 has nothing to do with CASS. As far as buying foreign, domestic manufacturers should wake up to reallity and provide customers with what they want. Rossi found a nitch in the market with their 92's. CASS people jumped all over these. Uberti then came out with 60's,66's,73's etc... Again CASS shooters jumped on these. They arent exactly cheap either so I dont buy that domestic manufacturers cant compete due to labor costs. Why cant Marlin or Winchester do this? I think they are not in tune with their customer base.

[edwardyoung]

I believe a settlement between Winchester and Rick Jamison (sp?) concerning short magnums may have had something to do with Winchester closing their facilities in CT.

Would you mind expounding a little on this? I've never heard this mentioned before. I know I may be the only one, though. Thanks

[Lefty Dude]

The model 94 Winny has never been a good SASS rifle. In CAS we shoot as match rifles pistol caliber cartridges. The 94 was designed as a Rifle caliber from the start. The 92 was designed as a pistol caliber rifle, in what we call the dash - cartridges. Dash cartridges meaning 32-20, 38-40, 44-40 no straightwall cartridges. The 94 does not feed short straight wall pistol cartridges reliable, the action is too long.

Some Cowboy shooter who are new to CAS start out with a Winny 94 and as they gain experience they soon change. Our game is based on Speed as well as accuracy. It is hard to get a 94 Winny to cycle 10 round in less than 10 seconds. Where as a Marlin 94, or 92 will run 10 rounds in 6-7 seconds. The same average shooter can run a 73 action in 4-5 seconds. The lever stroke of the 94 Winny is very long, again this is for a 30-30 type cartridge.

I shoot a Uberti, Cimarron 73 in 44-40. And use a 92 Rossi in 44-40 as a back-up rifle.

The Rifle is where you pick up seconds in a match, then your pistols, followed by your Shot gun.

Matches & Stages are won with the Shot Gun, believe it or not.

[J Miller]

The model 94 Winny has never been a good SASS rifle. In CAS we shoot as match rifles pistol caliber cartridges. The 94 was designed as a Rifle caliber from the start. The 92 was designed as a pistol caliber rifle, in what we call the dash - cartridges. Dash cartridges meaning 32-20, 38-40, 44-40 no straightwall cartridges. The 94 does not feed short straight wall pistol cartridges reliable, the action is too long.

Some Cowboy shooter who are new to CAS start out with a Winny 94 and as they gain experience they soon change. Our game is based on Speed as well as accuracy. It is hard to get a 94 Winny to cycle 10 round in less than 10 seconds. Where as a Marlin 94, or 92 will run 10 rounds in 6-7 seconds. The same average shooter can run a 73 action in 4-5 seconds. The lever stroke of the 94 Winny is very long, again this is for a 30-30 type cartridge.

I shoot a Uberti, Cimarron 73 in 44-40. And use a 92 Rossi in 44-40 as a back-up rifle.

The Rifle is where you pick up seconds in a match, then your pistols, followed by your Shot gun.

Matches & Stages are won with the Shot Gun, believe it or not.

Lefty Dude,

I gotta comment here on two things, otherwise I totally agree with you.

>First the 32 WCF (32-20), 38 WCF (38-40), and 44 WCF (44-40) ARE RIFLE CARTRIDGES not pistol cartridges. The fact that they are pistol length is irrelevant.

>Second the Win 94 AE's will indeed feed straight walled pistol cartridges such as the .45 Colt, .44 Magnum very reliably. I've had one of these as I said for over 20 years and in the thousands of rounds I've put through it, I can count on one hand the number of failures to feed with fingers left over. Most of those were because I short cycled the lever. There are other owners of the pistol caliber 94s here that will back up my story. So your comment is a bit too vague. I will concede that for cas use they may not be as reliable as the short action lever guns, but for normal use they are quite reliable.

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

Thanks; Miller

Yes, corrections were in order.

Yes I know that straight wall cases will cycle in the 94 Winny, however the thread involves CAS & SASS shooters Vs, the 94 I believe. The 94 is an excellent firearm for hunting, self-defense and such. I use one in 30-30 for the Long range CAS side event matches. It is when you try and run them at CAS competition speeds they are not reliable. I have seen many CAS shooter spend hundreds of dollars trying to get them to function for competition. If you run them slow and precise they are fine. Just don't try and make a 5 second run with 10 rounds.

And yes the dash cartridges are and were Rifle cartridges. Try and find the Ammo and cartridges listed as Revolver,Pistol. They are listed in the Rifle catagory.

It is a shame the bean counters & Managment of Winchester did not start making the 92 here in America instead of taking the 94 and making it serve dual duty.

The 92 would have been a winner, and I am sure more CAS shooters would be using the little carbine.

Sorry if I offended any Members here, that was not the intent.
I love the 94 Winchester also, it is one of the great Lever Guns. My 94 Legacy is one of the last produced in New Haven, Conn. It is the full 26" octagon barrel, cresent butt & made in 2005 or early 06. I shoot only 30-30 lead rounds. The action has been tuned as best can be done on a 94 Winchester.

If you have a 2006 Winchester Catalog they were going to make the 94 Legacy in a 24" 25-35. I was going to buy one, Oh well maybe if they ever make them again.

[J Miller]

Nah, no offence even considered. And I agree with you on the wishing USRAC / Browning had made them here. That would have been nice.

Joe

[S.B.]

J Miller, I see you like color but, I can't even see the last part of your reply? I wish I would of asked each replier to list their age, I'll bet each age group has different ideas of what's wrong in our country today?
Steve

[edwardyoung]

I believe a settlement between Winchester and Rick Jamison (sp?) concerning short magnums may have had something to do with Winchester closing their facilities in CT.

Would you mind expounding a little on this? I've never heard this mentioned before. I know I may be the only one, though. Thanks

Not intending to hijack a thread, but I looked around and found a little about my question.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/column18_deat ... agnums.htm

[GonnePhishin]

Just what is a rebounding hammer?

[Modoc ED]

I believe a settlement between Winchester and Rick Jamison (sp?) concerning short magnums may have had something to do with Winchester closing their facilities in CT.

Would you mind expounding a little on this? I've never heard this mentioned before. I know I may be the only one, though. Thanks

Not intending to hijack a thread, but I looked around and found a little about my question.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/column18_deat ... agnums.htm

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

Yes, that's it in a nutshell. Jamiso thought he had been stepped on by Winchester and sued them. As indicated in the article, he did get a settlement. He wrote the Reloading Articles for Shooting Times for years but they dropped him pretty quick when all this came to light.

I think Jamiso might have felt slighted by Winchester because he did so much short magnum work/work-up and Winchester didn't acknowledge his work.

Anyway, the Winchester plant in CT closed very soon after the Jamison settlement, etc..

We'll probably never know the real impact of the Jamison/Winchester fubar but I do believe it played a role in the plant closing.

[J Miller]

J Miller, I see you like color but, I can't even see the last part of your reply? I wish I would of asked each replier to list their age, I'll bet each age group has different ideas of what's wrong in our country today?
Steve

Steve,
Sorry about the color deal, here it is in glorious black and white, and I'll be 56 next month.
Joe

S.B. wrote:
What happened that Winchester quit manufacturing this gun? Cheap imported suedo copies(EMF, Rossie(sp), others)? Or was it that the new shooters of SASS wanted cheaper guns for their sport?

Well in my opinion the rebounding hammers, cross bolt and tang safety, horrid trigger pulls with problematic miss fire problems, and spotty quality control is what cost USRAC many many customers. I bought my last new Win 94 in 1986. I didn't like the angle eject feature but I could live with it. I despised that rebounding hammer action and replaced it. But when the cross bolt safety came out, that was it. No more Win 94s for me. I won't buy any of the lever guns with rebounding hammers any more. It's just not worth the trouble. As for cowboy action killing the 94, I doubt it. Although USRAC did a good job altering the 94 action for the short cartridges it just wasn't a cas type gun. The long stroke action couldn't be hot rodded like these guys do.
Quote:
Where are all the good American made guns going?

The companies are either being bought out by richer companies, IE Remington, Marlin, and others; going out of business, or going to foreign owners.
Quote:
Why would people from this country turn from old, established, manufactures to imported products?

Because the American companies no longer make what we want.
Quote:
Or, is it the youth of today (yuppies, RUBs if you will on their metric cruisers) that wants something new and cheaper?

Considering how the purchasing ability of the US Dollar has dropped, we all are looking for better value for what money we have to spend. It's not just the yuppies.
Quote:
I worked for Caterpillar for a couple of years and heard all their propaganda about world economy but now they seem on the ropes? My economy stops at my bank here in America.
Before the flames start, I know I'm in the minority here and I've been in this barrel before (my turn).

My economy is all but non existent. When I have money I do my best to purchase American made products, but if there are none, I buy what will do the job. For instance; if I have a choice of buying a Winchester 94AE 44 Mag with the cross bolt safety or a Rossi Puma with no safeties, I'll take the Puma. Or, do I pay high prices for an original Winchester 1873, or pay a better price for an Italian copy that I can afford?
Joe

[J Miller]

Just what is a rebounding hammer?

First let me describe the original half cock action:

When you pull the hammer back just a bit before half way you'll run into a click. That is the half cock position. When carrying the rifle with a round in the chamber this is where you put the hammer.
This is the original design that was put into use well over a hundred years ago. It's served perfectly well to those who practiced proper gun handling. When you fully cock the gun and fire it the hammer falls and strikes the firing pin and stays right there. All the way down.
It is not safe to carry a rifle with this type of action with the hammer all the way down and a live round in the chamber.

Now the rebounding hammer action:

When you pull the hammer back just a bit before half way there is nothing. The hammer just sits there under spring pressure. This is the rebound position. This is a new design coming out about 1982. It was put into production because Winchester got sued by some moron who shot himself no doubt. It's a lawyer mandated design change. And it's hypocritical. Winchester did not change the action of the 9422. It remained the same until it was discontinued in 2004.
Whey you fully cock the gun and fire it, the hammer falls and strikes the firing pin, then bounces back or rebounds to the rebound position. There is an interrupter device between the hammer and a crosswise part of the frame that prevents the hammer from contacting the firing pin if the trigger is not pulled.
Allegedly it is safe to carry a live round in the chamber of a lever gun with the rebounding hammer action.

I hope this helps some.

Joe

[Bruce Scott]

Just what is a rebounding hammer?

A can of worms!
"The Model 94's Rebounding Hammer is a safety feature designed to protect the firing pin from being struck by the hammer when the trigger is not being pulled. After firing your rifle, the hammer immediately moves to the rebound position. From this position, under normal conditions, the hammer is prevented from moving forward and striking the firing pin. The rebound position and the manual hammer stop are intended to work together to provide protection against unintentional or accidental firing. This gives you an extra margin of safety for young first time users."

So what was achieved?
1. Cycling the lever fully cocks the hammer just as in the half cock guns.
2. The hammer can be lowered to the rest/rebound position which equates to half cock.
3. The hammer has to be moved to full cock in order to fire
4. On firing, the hammer strikes the firing pin and immediately rebounds to the rest/rebound/half cock position which is allegedly safer because we wouldnt want that hammer to accidently strike the firing pin against a fired primer
5. Cycling the lever on a rebounding hammer gun is by no means as smooth as the half cock models.

[GonnePhishin]

Joe/Bruce
Wouldn't it just be safer to not keep a live round in the chamber like in a single action pistol?
It seems kind of odd that the hammer would be in the half cock position, instead of being in the fully down position.
I guess I will have to do more research on the subject, but thanks for the explanations.
UncleBuck

[Don McDowell]

The ONLY thing that affected the stoppage of production of model 70's,94's and 1200's was a greedy bunch of politicians in New Haven Conn. They were going to hit FN with a tremendous amount of fines and restitution to clean up the supposed hazards at the Winchester plant. If you go back and take a look when there was the possibility of another buyer, they offered to drop that 17 million or whatever it was, but wouldn't consider it for Herstal.
So in the end greedy politicians with anti gun sentiment to start with ended up loosing a considerable amount of jobs and tax revenue.There was also rumblings of some ongoing problems with the union, and quality control was having some problems.
If you notice Herstal has started turning M70's out of Goose Creek SC, and it's been whispered we'll soon see our beloved 94 back as well.

[Lefty Dude]

Joe/Bruce
Wouldn't it just be safer to not keep a live round in the chamber like in a single action pistol?
It seems kind of odd that the hammer would be in the half cock position, instead of being in the fully down position.
I guess I will have to do more research on the subject, but thanks for the explanations.
UncleBuck

In CAS/SASS we start with our rifles with the hammer down and no round in the chamber. However for hunting & self defense, not a good idea. That racking of the lever makes quite a bit of noise. Reseting the hammer from the safety position/half cock can be accomplished very quiet.

[Modoc ED]

The ONLY thing that affected the stoppage of production of model 70's,94's and 1200's was a greedy bunch of politicians in New Haven Conn. They were going to hit FN with a tremendous amount of fines and restitution to clean up the supposed hazards at the Winchester plant. If you go back and take a look when there was the possibility of another buyer, they offered to drop that 17 million or whatever it was, but wouldn't consider it for Herstal.
So in the end greedy politicians with anti gun sentiment to start with ended up loosing a considerable amount of jobs and tax revenue.There was also rumblings of some ongoing problems with the union, and quality control was having some problems.
If you notice Herstal has started turning M70's out of Goose Creek SC, and it's been whispered we'll soon see our beloved 94 back as well.

That might be part of it but it is not the ONLY thing. Just not buying it.

[J Miller]

Joe/Bruce
Wouldn't it just be safer to not keep a live round in the chamber like in a single action pistol?
It seems kind of odd that the hammer would be in the half cock position, instead of being in the fully down position.
I guess I will have to do more research on the subject, but thanks for the explanations.
UncleBuck

UncleBuck,
The way I was taught, and everybody else I was taught also was to carry the rifle with an empty chamber unless you were actually stalking game. Then when stalking have the hammer on half cock so that when you get a shot all you need do is silently cock the hammer and make the shot.

When I purchased my Win94AE Trapper in 86 I had several older 94s with the standard action. Trying to get used to that abominable rebounding action after so many years of being used to the original action was miserable. After shooting the rebounder and getting accustomed to it, I found myself forgetting to put the old style guns on half cock when hunting. Instead I'd lower the hammer and it would be sitting on a live round - very dangerous. So something had to go and that was the rebounding hammer action. I got rid of it and made my Trapper like all the older 94s.

Joe

[Griff]

SASS DID NOT kill the Win 94. Winchester (read FN/USRA) did that all by their lonesome. The Winchester 94 is still one of the MOST POPULAR actions for long range matches that are often held in conjunction with SASS matches. The cartridges it's chambered in (original, not pistol length) are excellent for the intermediate distances most SASS "long range" (I have a new definition after this past weekend), are shot at.

Yes, many SASS shooters are somewhat traditionalist in nature... go figure, they wanna shoot 19th century designed arms in competition. FN/USRA were building guns that appealed to that crowd and THEY WERE SELLING THEM. Their own greed/mismanagement/ignorance is what caused that plant closure... not lack of sales. See above answers about lawsuits, hazmat clean up, etc.

[CraigC]

I don't think cowboy action shooting killed it either. Right at the end the guns were starting to get a whole hell of a lot better. They moved the safety to the tang, brought back some obsolete calibers and octagon barrels. I'd buy at least two or three. It would be great to see those late model designs come back to production. To get the used gun prices back down if nothing else.

[Arminius]

What happened that Winchester quit manufacturing this gun? Cheap imported suedo copies(EMF, Rossie(sp), others)? Or was it that the new shooters of SASS wanted cheaper guns for their sport?

Well in my opinion the rebounding hammers, cross bolt and tang safety, horrid trigger pulls with problematic miss fire problems, and spotty quality control is what cost USRAC many many customers. I bought my last new Win 94 in 1986. I didn't like the angle eject feature but I could live with it. I despised that rebounding hammer action and replaced it. But when the cross bolt safety came out, that was it. No more Win 94s for me. I won't buy any of the lever guns with rebounding hammers any more. It's just not worth the trouble. Joe

+1

Hermann

[S.B.]

Evidently, Winchester doesn't have the following that Marlins have. Marlin owners or purchasers have been invovative enough to seek out a good looking replacement pin to solve that problem while owners of Winchesters just don't buy the product any more? Too bad.
Listening to you guys, I think(?) I now understand why Winchester went under?

[tman]

the bigbore 94's in .307,356 and 444 marlin chamberings weresome of thebest 94's produced. those carttridges covered all north american game at ranges which responsible hunters should shoot. a 61/4 lb. carbine that handles like a fine shotgun should have sold. winchester and the gun press didn't support them and dammed them with faint praise. worse, nobody bought them.

[J Miller]

Evidently, Winchester doesn't have the following that Marlins have. Marlin owners or purchasers have been invovative enough to seek out a good looking replacement pin to solve that problem while owners of Winchesters just don't buy the product any more? Too bad.
Listening to you guys, I think(?) I now understand why Winchester went under?

Steve,

Take a real close look a Marlin cross bolt safety, then a real close look at a Winchester Cross bolt safety. Both work the same; you push it from right to left to take it off safe, but that's the only similarity.
The Marlin safety is inconspicuous and unobtrusive. The Winchester safety created a HUGE UGLY hole in the right side of the receiver and it sticks out so far on the left side. It's a problem because it can and will get bumped to the safe position without the shooter wanting it. Look at the thread in this forum about a different Trapper.
( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8793 ) Look close at the pics of the left side and see just how far that thing sticks out. Now find a Marlin and look at it. This is why Winchester lost sales and finally changed over to the tang safety.

To make the Marlin safety you just need to turn out a two diameter shaft with a cut out and a detent for the retaining ball. To make the Winchesters you have to make a big angled hole filling end that still won't fully blend into the contours of the receiver. One of our members ( I believe it was Salvo ) did exactly that. Posted a bunch of pics too. I wish I'd kept the URL for the thread.

Another reason is Marlin kept the original half cock action with their inconspicuous and unobtrusive safety, while Winchester went to the abominable rebounding hammer action. Strick one, strike two, strike three .............. you're out!

Joe

[S.B.]

Don McDowell, if I looked at the right pictures(first link?), I can't see it's rocket science to come up with something to make it null and void?

[Meeteetse]

You are all correct. A number of factors contributed to the demise of Winchester and the Mdl.94, however I believe their lack of sales was also caused by a generational change. Your father, my father and our grandfathers, as well as many of us on this forum, believed the 94 was a fine hunting gun. It dominated eastern forest and brush country hunting for many years. Growing up in Wyoming, it served well for most hunting because we knew its limitations and used it accordingly. Yes, we had scoped rifles, in 30/06 mostly, but the Mdl. 94 was always handy.

Jump ahead to the generation that fought in Viet Nam and grew up with the .308 M-14 and the .223 M-16, and most of them, not all, have never considered a lever gun as their primary hunting gun. Add to that the advent of stainless steel and plastic stocks and you have the modern hunter. I know I'm making generalizations, but I know many a man who is about 25-50 years old who has never fired a lever gun, at least not as a primary hunting rifle.

Even different parts of the country affected sales. In Wyoming, it seemed every household, especially people living out of town, had a Mdl. 94. It was considered a general purpose, hunting, personal protection, and general "keep the fox out of the chicken coop" type weapon. My favorite gun shop had two or three dozen Winchesters in stock when I moved four years ago. When Winchester announced they were closing their doors, I decided to go to the local gun shops here in my part of Texas and pick up one or two models I didn't have. Couldn't find a single one. When I asked why, the guy told me there had never been much of a call for them, so he didn't stock them. Just ordered when he needed to. I'm sure it may have been different in other parts of the state, but where I was Winchester lever guns didn't exist.

I love Winchester leverguns, but I love all lever guns. Especially if they happen to say "Made in America" somewhere. We can only hope an American icon will rise again with the style and grace of the pre-64 guns. . . . . . That may be a bit much to hope for.

[popeye44]

Wallyworld did not help Winchester with their anti-American no profit for the vendor business practices. If there
is a heel there will be a wallyworld there.

[Old Ironsights]

Back OT...

As someone who has only watched CAS/SASS, but IS trained in marketing, I could not see how the "Game" could have affected the 1894 at all... unless to maybe keep some guys from buying one to hunt deer with once they saw how useful their .357/.45 1892s were.

But that is a VERY small percentage of gamers IMO.

I think that, by in large, the "failings" of the W94 had more to do with Marketing, Lawyers and Business Practices than anything else. Why else would Mossberg bring out a semi-clone to fill the gap once Marlin was left as the only game in town for .30-30 hunting rifles? If the market had been "killed" then Mossberg - no slouch in the marketing biz - wouldn't have touched it.

[Don McDowell]

Don McDowell, if I looked at the right pictures(first link?), I can't see it's rocket science to come up with something to make it null and void?

Wtf over? I didn't ask you or anybody else to look at any pictures or links, here or anywhere else . you may just want to do a tad bit of editiing??????

[S.B.]

I understand your acronym and don't appreciate it, using polite foul language isn't going to help any discussion. I'm out of here! Far too many threads end up like this, in my opinion. If your vocabulary doesn't have enough words for you to make yourself understood, maybe you should of listened in school?

[Don McDowell]

I understand your acronym and don't appreciate it, using polite foul language isn't going to help any discussion. I'm out of here! Far too many threads end up like this, in my opinion. If your vocabulary doesn't have enough words for you to make yourself understood, maybe you should of listened in school?

Some folks don't like being called out things they didn't do either.

BYEBYE don't let the door hit you in the hip pockets.

[Tumbleweeds]

I think Winchester's costs were just too high. They offered a limited run of Model 92s a couple of years ago, and they were priced around $900 - $1000. You could buy a Marlin or Rossi for less than half that, or even a Browning B-92. Heck, I paid less for a 92 made in 1895.

I heard they lost money on the 94s and 70s, and hope to do better in SC with lower costs.

So, I don't blame SASS. SASS is the best thing to happen to lever action rifles and single action pistols in my lifetime, not to mention how much easier it has become to buy ammo for old guns.

Besides, Winchester made 6,000,000+ of the Model 94. You can still get one if you want it, and for less than the price of a good scope.

[CraigC]

I think Winchester's costs were just too high. They offered a limited run of Model 92s a couple of years ago, and they were priced around $900 - $1000.

Apples and oranges. The special edition models 1885, 1886, 1892 and 1895 were all contracted to Miroku and are all very high quality guns and really a good value. Same maker as the Browning models 53, 65, 92, 95 and 86, among others. Much better than anything produced domestically in a very long time. These guns are still being offered. It's the domestic model 94 that's really the topic at hand.

I understand your acronym and don't appreciate it

I have to agree. Using an acronym doesn't make it any less offensive. Don't misunderstand, sometimes my language could make a $2 prostitute blush but there's a time and a place for everything. This has never been the place for the F word. Spelled out, implied, abbreviated or otherwise.

[sharps54]

SNIP
So, I don't blame SASS. SASS is the best thing to happen to lever action rifles and single action pistols in my lifetime, not to mention how much easier it has become to buy ammo for old guns.
SNIP.

I agree 100% with this. SASS had nothing to do with Winchester's demise and if it wasn't for SASS we would have never seen factory Open Top revolvers, Repro 1876s, or many of the other wonderful replicas on the market now. I am a member of SASS even though I don't shoot with them anymore, I think it is a great concept and all the people I have met were wonderful. I moved on to N-SSA (Civil War Skirmishing) and Schuetzen matches myself but am very glad for the things that have been brought to market because of cowboy matches.

[Modoc ED]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CraigC]

Wal-Marts are great stores. Too bad if Mom & Pop stores can't keep up.

Walmart is a cutthroat organization and the ultimate mutation of capitalism. My little brother gave more to charity last year than all their CEO's combined, who are some of the richest people in the US.

[Old Ironsights]

Wal-Marts are great stores. Too bad if Mom & Pop stores can't keep up.

Walmart is a cutthroat organization and the ultimate mutation of capitalism. My little brother gave more to charity last year than all their CEO's combined, who are some of the richest people in the US.

No... they are the ultimate mutation of Mercantilisim. Like all Big Businesses they couldn't survive in a true capitalist society. They are too dependant on Government largess.

It's not that they are better, it's just that the Tax Structure of US Mercantilisim favors Big over Small.

Get rid of Taxes and they couldn't compete. They aren't nimble enough.

[GoatGuy]

How many Chief Executive Officers do you suppose WalMart has? Perhaps one (1)?

[cjm135]

Don't forget that these rifles have been around for over a century. Think of all the millions of rifles produced that are still floating around. Almost everytime a used leveraction is sold or traded that is one less new gun made. We all heard of the great deals that someone picked up at a gun show, gun and pawn shops or where ever. These rifles just didn't rust or wear out fast enough. I think the market is flooded for the number of leveraction consumers. I believe that the production of new guns dipped low enough to become unprofitable to produce.

[CraigC]

How many Chief Executive Officers do you suppose WalMart has? Perhaps one (1)?

Oops, meant to say their CO's. Five if I remember right.

[GoatGuy]

CO? I'm not familiar with that corporate officer designation. Surely you must be correct, but will you enlighten me, please?

[Modoc ED]

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[popeye44]

CJ, Rossi Henry Marlin seem to be doing well and I dont think they are making AK47's.

[.45colt]

I DON'T POST HERE MUCH ANYMORE SINCE THE CHANGE......DON'T MATTER AS I AINT NOBODY ANYWAY....................................................................................
WHAT KILLED THE 94???? A BUNCH OF PENCLE NECK GEEKS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE GUN,BOTH COMPANY MORONS WHO NEVER SHOT A 94 AND CITY FATHERS WHO HAD THERE HEADS UP THERE ***.
AS FOR WALLMART.....MY SON IN LAW WORKS FOR THEM.IN THE SPORTING GOODS. IN ONE OF THE FEW THAT STILL SELL FIRE ARMS , AFTER HE WAS LAID-OFF FROM HIS FACTORY JOB THE ONLY PLACE TO WORK WAS WALLMART. IT'S GREAT, HE MAKES LESS THAN $9.00 AN HOUR 32.00 HOURS A WEEK, NO BENIFITS.ALL FROM THE LARGEST EMPLOYER IN THE WORLD. LAST YEAR I SENT MT DAUGHTER $ 500.00 SO THEY COULD PUT TIRES ON HIS TRUCK,EVEN THOUGH HE WORKS 75' FROM THE AUTO-CENTRE AT WALLMART.
BUT WALLY WORLD SURE TAKES CARE OF CHINA.FROM THERE OWN SITE.
http://www.wal-martchina.com/english/news/stat.htm

[CraigC]

CO? I'm not familiar with that corporate officer designation. Surely you must be correct, but will you enlighten me, please?

So do you have a point to make, or do you want to mire the thread in a semantic debate? I apologize for making the unforgiveable mistake of misremembering the chief officers titles. How will I ever forgive myself. Alrighty then, here are the four top Chief Officers in the Walmart organization along with their full titles and salaries. Whaddaya know, there are TWO CEO's.

H. Lee Scott, Chief Executive Officer, President, Director, $5,590,000
Thomas M. Schoewe, Chief Financial Officer, $1,860,000
John B. Menzer, Vice Chairman and Chief Administration Officer, $3,440,000 (plus exercised $1,730,000 in options)
Michael T. Duke, Chief Executive Officer of Wal-Mart International, $3,360,000 (plus exercised $1,340,000 in options)

So let me get this straight. You took your little brother's tax return and
laid it next to the Wal-Mart CEO's/CO's tax returns and looked at their
Charitable Contributions/Decuctions on their Schedule A Itemized
Deductions section of their tax returns and lo-and-behold your little
brother contributed more to charity than all the Wal-Mart CEOs/COs
combined.

It is well known how greedy these people are as well as how much they give to charity. If you have any actual data to refute my claim, I'll be happy to see it.

I have no problem in the world with capitalism. I have a problem with a greedy corporation that strongarms individuals and local governments as well as manufacturers, just to get ahead. Walmart's offenses are well known, let's not act as if I'm making anything up. If Americans like yourself were not so addicted to cheap Chinese garbage, there might be hope for the individual businessman. Instead, you would rather make excuses for the corporate giant that moves into towns, opens a big store, closes all the local stores and then closes itself when profits aren't high enough. There are plenty of ghost towns across American that Walmart has created. Do the research yourself, my eyes are wide open.