OT - Career suicide?

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Ysabel Kid
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OT - Career suicide?

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Well, you all know my proclivity for nibbling on my toes, otherwise know as putting my foot in my mouth. Last week I think I shoved it in all the way to my knee! :roll:

I work for a large, global chemical company based here in the United States. Last year I received a promotion to a level that includes leadership responsibilities – and additional training for such activities. I was at our corporate office all last week in training, including a day and a half of “diversity and inclusion” training. For as much as I was NOT looking forward to this, it was, by and far, much better than I expected. Some parts were deep in PC, but most was just discussions on global business and dealing with people with vastly different cultural backgrounds.

I only knew one other person in the class of 30, a friend of mine in the same work group that received the same promotion at the same time. He is also a Commander in the Navy Reserves (pilot). Our outlook in life is quite similar.

We agreed to help one another get through the class by kicking each other under the table if one strayed into dangerous territory during the D&I class – you know, like espousing a politically incorrect view of any kind. It didn’t work!

At one point their was a short quiz – 10 questions – to help assess oneself. No right or wrong answers (I heard that 100 times over the day and a half course) – just an assessment of basically whether you were more “western” in your approach to time and business, or more “non-western”.

Everyone took the quiz, then graded ourselves afterwards. My friend teased me – I got 10 out of 10, and he only had a 7 (I told him that had he been Army or Marines he would have got the right score instead of a pansy one!) . The average score for Americans in business is in the range of 5-9; for our workforce, it’s a 6, and for our leadership a 6.4. Belgians had the highest average score of any western nation (7). Japanese businessman had an average score of 2. Again, a measure of one's concept of time management - and the importance of time, as well as the importance of measureable things versus that of relationship, position, etc.

Well the leader of the course decides to poll the class on their scores, and writes the numbers 10 through 1 on a flip chart. She then asks if there were any 10’s, turning around quickly without a real look. She starts to ask for any 9’s when someone in the class pointed out that we had a 10 – one 10 – and that was me. Her comment? “Really? In all my years of facilitating this class I’ve never had a person with a 10”.

Well, I know why. The last question was “The way business is conducted in developing countries is not better than nor worse than it is in developed countries; it is simply different and equally valid.” You had to respond “strongly agree”, “agree”, “disagree”, or “strongly disagree”. I responded “disagree”.

Needless to say, this is a political landmine question, and I am sure no one has ever answered it honestly if they either disagreed or strongly disagreed before, thus the lack of any “10” scores.

Not satisfied with killing my future advancement prospects, and deciding that my foot tasted pretty good (so why not start on my leg), I then felt the need to elaborate. I stated that I read the question – as I had read all of them – very literally, and that based on that, and any basic understanding of economics and history, the only valid answer was negative. Our economic system – free market capitalism with private property rights and the rule of law has generated more wealth of more people, and lifted more people out of poverty, than any other system in the recorded history of man. This is not open to interpretation – it is a matter of historical fact. Further, the western concept of time – realizing that time was indeed a commodity of fixed supply (versus unlimited), explained in large part, when combined with our economic system, the western world’s success compared to other parts of the world that either don’t manage time or don’t have similar economic systems – or both. If our system wasn’t superior, why was the developing world trying to copy it – if not in whole, in parts?

Arguing facts and logic with people who have their minds made up – especially on an emotional front – seldom garners any positive results. Having several people in the class from “non-western” countries probably didn’t help either. The teacher switched the topic promptly, without acknowledging my points. I’m sure somewhere, a notation has now been put in my file. Oh well, at least I was honest and stood up for my beliefs!

As I said, all in all it was a good class, and the week was very well spent. The funny thing is that I am actually an advocate for D&I - because I firmly believe that no one group has a monopoly on intelligence and talent. If the goal is to have more of these qualities, and one does not discriminate against anyone in pursuing this goal, then eventually their workforce will indeed be very diverse. Problem is, like all companies operating here (and elsewhere), the fear of litigation also drives this policy, and having heads to count is often easier (especially in a lawsuit) to defend than unrepresentative individual workgroups which are often encountered when one pursues true excellence. Still, compared to some companies I've seen, we're ahead of the game on average.

Enough hard thinking before a holiday weekend...
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Andrew »

Good for you Ysabel! I would have just said, "America rules!!".
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by jeepnik »

One of the very best aspects of working or ones self, is that if "I" don't like you, no matter what the reason, "I" don't have to deal with you. Some folks may not like it, but there it is. Too many folks are too worried about the next pay check, let alone pay raise to be true to their beliefs. I'm not politically correct, "I" am simple correct in my beliefs. You don't like them tough, go somewhere else and find somebody who will care about your opinion. By the way, one often heard quote is "there is no "I" in team". Well that's right, but "I" am not a team, "I" am "ME". "I" get payed for what "I" know. Took a long time to get here, I don't intend to have to put up with PC BS ever again.
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by AJMD429 »

I've many times said the truth and what WAS the right thing as far as integrity, turned out to be the wrong thing strategically. I'd never be a good poker player or administrator because I just say what I think. I respect other's opinion and right to difference in opinion, but I won't gloss over my own, nor would I expect that of others.
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Otto »

Racist, hate-mongering imperialist scum!
"...In this present crisis, government isn't the solution to the problem; government is the problem." Ronald Reagan

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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Hobie »

Otto wrote:Racist, hate-mongering imperialist scum!
I take it that was sarcasm...
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Old Ironsights »

I'd be right with ya Kid. One of the problems that keeps me un(der)employed.

I suck at tact/PC/BS.

Part of the psych profile. Can't even "fudge" it. :?
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Otto »

Hobie wrote:
Otto wrote:Racist, hate-mongering imperialist scum!
I take it that was sarcasm...

Absolutely
"...In this present crisis, government isn't the solution to the problem; government is the problem." Ronald Reagan

"...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." Declaration of Independence
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by jeepnik »

Otto wrote:Racist, hate-mongering imperialist scum!

This sure would be a good place for an emoticon :P
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Otto »

jeepnik wrote:
Otto wrote:Racist, hate-mongering imperialist scum!

This sure would be a good place for an emoticon :P

I don't use those because I never am sure what they mean.

My apologies if I offended anybody, especially the OP. The earlier comment was strictly tongue-in-cheek.

What was that you were saying about feet in mouths?
"...In this present crisis, government isn't the solution to the problem; government is the problem." Ronald Reagan

"...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." Declaration of Independence
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by BenT »

There isn't an I in team but there is the word "me" . :wink:

I gave up on management training 20 years ago when the training sessions started getting in the "support and nurture " part of dealing with problem employees .
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by mescalero1 »

Kid,
I just retired, but I feel for you.
For me the trick was in figuring out what they wanted me to say, but saying it did not make it any more palatable
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Rusty »

I had a preacher once who used to say not everything you have to say is worth hearing so never pass up a good chance to just shut up.


I try my best to contain myself in business meetings but sometimes I get tired and slip.


We had one of those classes once where they told us that offending someone is not always intentional. At that point I had really had enough and told her, I assure you that if I intend to offend you there will be no doubt.
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by gamekeeper »

Good for you Jay.
I have worked in Local Government for the last 25 years and have had to put up with enough BS to fill the Grand Canyon! I'm always in trouble for pointing this out to my so called superiors, but, as the cook in Lonesome Dove would say "I don't care". :wink:
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by rhead »

Honesty and integrity are not cheap habits.
When you modify the word correct with political or most any other word you will get some glossed over version of incorrect.
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Gun Smith »

We've come so far with "political correctness" that I fear that accepting the lowest common denominator for our children will, in time, cost us much more than the "hurting" of one's feelings. In the real world there are winners AND losers, or as my racing buddies used to say, "2nd place is just the first loser". Everyone does't get a trophy.
Fortunately or unfortunately I was self employed for the last 35 years of my working life. It was always difficult and at times impossible to be "correct" while keeping some idiot from hurting himself or others.
I do believe in the "survival of the fittest", and if we don't start paying more attention to that fact, the U.S. is going to find itself a third world country. Hopefully we can educate our future generations without "hurting" their feelings.
Political correctness did not get us where we are today, and many emerging nations totally ignore P.C. in their own dealings. So U.S. - BEWARE!
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Hobie »

Otto wrote:
jeepnik wrote:
Otto wrote:Racist, hate-mongering imperialist scum!

This sure would be a good place for an emoticon :P

I don't use those because I never am sure what they mean.

My apologies if I offended anybody, especially the OP. The earlier comment was strictly tongue-in-cheek.

What was that you were saying about feet in mouths?
A wink would have been appropriate... :wink: :lol: (at myself...) :roll:
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by rjohns94 »

Well done Jay. I agree 100% with you.
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Old Savage »

It is good to get along with all types of good people and see them as equal.
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Old Savage »

If you want an idea of what not to do listen the democrats regarding Sarah Palin. Start with Obama and Beckel. Sad :!: :!: :!:
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Paladin »

jeepnik wrote:One of the very best aspects of working or ones self, is that if "I" don't like you, no matter what the reason, "I" don't have to deal with you. Some folks may not like it, but there it is. Too many folks are too worried about the next pay check, let alone pay raise to be true to their beliefs. I'm not politically correct, "I" am simple correct in my beliefs. You don't like them tough, go somewhere else and find somebody who will care about your opinion. By the way, one often heard quote is "there is no "I" in team". Well that's right, but "I" am not a team, "I" am "ME". "I" get payed for what "I" know. Took a long time to get here, I don't intend to have to put up with PC BS ever again.



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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by O.S.O.K. »

This is why I really like my current position. We are all impreialistic racist capitalist scum. :D (yes, I'm using irony ;) )
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Texican »

I'm still working out how you can grade a quiz with 'no right or wrong answers'. Shouldn't everyone always get a '10'?

[Good post]
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Sixgun »

Kid,
Your a very smart dude and obviously, one who has great self-esteem. I really think the whole question you were asked boils down to freedom of thinking. Our great Thomas Jefferson said, "Once you have to kiss the feet of the ones who feed you, you are no longer at liberty". Yes, we have the greatest system in the world because we are FREE TO THINK AS WE CHOOSE. :D :D Well, I guess that will hold out as long as Osama Obama don't sneak in. :cry: ---------------------Sixgun
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Dastook »

Kid, you are "The Man". I bow to your great efforts. :) :)
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Good post.

To answer the question mark in your heading.....in my experience classes like that dont matter one whit what you do. You just get a tick in the box that you attended one. Therefor, you have been appropriately indoctrinated.
Dont worry about it. But - good answer too. PC is a state of mind, it doesnt change the world just becasue you look at it differently. Say what you see with your own eyes and youll always be right. Describing the world as it actually is will always be revolutionary.
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Thanks guys! I don't really think of it as career suicide anyway - that was somewhat tongue in cheek. After all, I don't want to be President of the company I work for - or anywhere near it. This would require a relocation I am simply unwilling to make - and a change in the balance of life that is equally impossible. I learned a long time ago to rate what is most important to me - and family, faith and friends are at the top of that list. Advancement is quite a bit down. Not that it isn't important - as it does relate to my ability to provide for my family. It is just that I don't need to win the corporate rat race to feel good about myself. I'd rather leave the world with two great young adults in the future - my kids - and a whole bunch of people who counted on me when they needed it that I was able to help.

There is a world of difference between being "maze bright" and being willing to grab one's ankles at the alter of political correctness. I hope I have plenty of the former - as I would like to retire someday! I won't sell out my positions on what's important to me though - regardless of the job. I do need to look at the man in the mirror every day and personal honor is extremely important to me (bordering on the sin of pride - I need to work on that). So, I try to employ the Irish definition of tact whenever I get into a disagreement with someone - especially those I work with and for.

You all do know what the Irish definition of tact is, don't you? Well, that is the ability to tell a man to go to hell and make him look forward to the journey! :wink: A useful skill when one is in sales - and when one works for a company like the one I work for! :lol:
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Forgot to mention - if you liked this post, you'll really like the acronym I learned is being used - unofficially, of course - to describe employees like me. "SPM".

You'll have to check out this post for what "SPM" stands for! :D

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=9690
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by jd45 »

Ysabel..............sleep easy, you maintained your integrity, which is most important, besides, I don't think the fallout from your responces is going to be as apocalyptic as the title of your post implies. That is my hope, anyway. jd45
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Hillbilly »

sounds like you work for D** ...the big chemical company. When I lived in Midland I worked for C**nsu*er*s Energy... in mid managment.
Sending a guy like me to those "headshrinker ' training sessions was as effective in changing my ways as sending Rosie O'Donnell to Jennie Craig.

I was able to hack the corporate b.s for about 9 years... and went back into "tools". Those folks who run out business' actually think the PC soccer mom -let's not keep score way of thinking will help us succeed in a global marketplace.

Please! (there aint an emoticon big enough for this)

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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by adirondakjack »

The truth is, we only have the LUXURY of those BS classes because our imperialist scum system works wo well we end up able to waste a little time.

Not for nothing, but the "non-western" world already knows that when the Northern Europeans (to include US) come, ya better be very afraid. Any people that can not only survive, but thrive with about 3 weeks of summer and 11.3 months of crappy weather each year gotta be all about efficiency ;)
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Noah Zark »

Puts me to mind of a supervisory workshop I was assigned to attend as a result of a promotion back in the mid to late 80s while in Corporate America. The attendees were company management types from supervisors to production managers and everywhere in between.

One excercise had us assembled into teams of five people each; we were given a manila envelope with pieces of plexiglas inside that could be assembled into the shape of a 10" plexiglas square with a 2" hollow square in the center where the plexiglas was cut away.

Our task was to prepare written instructions so that another team who used the instructions could assemble the plexiglas square in the shortest possible time. There could be NO spoken instructions or "hand signals" or "body english cues". Purely written instructions.

The other teams dutifully assembled their squares and set about writing step by step lists of instructions. In our group, much time was spent on argument and disagreement over a suggestion I made at the outset. There was a Type A personality from another company facility that was self-appointed leader of our team (as was the case in most of the team exercises) who was adamant that my suggestion was "against the rules." Time was wated and became so short that the consensus was to go with my suggestion after all. We developed the instructions in less than three minutes, and had about 30 secons to spare.

Because we were the last to finish, our group was the last to present our instructions. The other groups had detailed written lists with lengthy descriptions of the parts -- "Now take the part that looks like a bird's wing with the end cut off and put it with the top edge of the wing straight across the top edge of the object . . . " (Huh?) and most groups took from seven to 15 minutes (Time's up!) to assemble the hollow square.

Our turn came, and the other group selected as the assemblers followed our instructions and assembled the hollow square in 48 seconds.

Our instructions were in the form of an exploded diagram with arrows pointing toward the center, with a second diagram showing the finished assembly. No words, just a couple of drawings.

The seminar leader was all over our group wanting to know how we came up with the idea of a diagram. The group told her the story, basically pointing to me and more or less saying "He did it." Thanks guys.

The seminar leader reached out to shake my hand, saying that it was the first time in seven years of holding the seminar that any group wrote instructions that resulted in an assembly under 4 minutes, let alone under ONE minute. Then our self-appointed "group leader" piped up with a "But . . .but . . ." saying that our instructions had no words and that's against the rules, isn't it? The seminar leader said, "The rules say the instructions had to be on one or both sides of one sheet of paper. They don't say anything about NOT using diagrams. Your reading of the rules resulted in the conclusion that the rules must be written WORDS. Noah here read the rules from an attorney's standpoint (I am not a lawyer) and concluded that 'it doesn't say we can't use drawings.' Therefore, Team 5 wins with a time of 48 seconds."

That self-appointed team leader wouldn't speak to me the rest of the seminar.

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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by AJMD429 »

Noah Zark wrote:Puts me to mind of a supervisory workshop I was assigned to attend as a result of a promotion back in the mid to late 80s while in Corporate America.
. . . . .
That self-appointed team leader wouldn't speak to me the rest of the seminar.

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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Old Ironsights »

I had somthing similar happen to me in a Marketing/Negotiation class.

The instructor set up 4 teams, each with 1/4 of a shuffled deck of cards.

Points were assigned to Poker Hands.

The object was to negotiate with the other teams to aquire the maximum number of points, swapping cards one for one. We were given 10 minutes.

I let the rabble argue/haggle with each other until the last 2 minutes, then I told everyone to shut up and lay their cards on the table, whereupon I had each team capitan take all of the cards of one suit.

Straight Flushes - Maximum points for everybody. (Negotiating the "Win/Win")

Ours was the only class/I was the only person to ever "solve" that particular bit of malarky.

POed the team capitans to no end. Proved that they would rather argue than think. :roll:
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Re: OT - Career suicide?

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Noah Zark wrote:Puts me to mind of a supervisory workshop I was assigned to attend as a result of a promotion back in the mid to late 80s while in Corporate America. The attendees were company management types from supervisors to production managers and everywhere in between.

One excercise had us assembled into teams of five people each; we were given a manila envelope with pieces of plexiglas inside that could be assembled into the shape of a 10" plexiglas square with a 2" hollow square in the center where the plexiglas was cut away.

Our task was to prepare written instructions so that another team who used the instructions could assemble the plexiglas square in the shortest possible time. There could be NO spoken instructions or "hand signals" or "body english cues". Purely written instructions.

The other teams dutifully assembled their squares and set about writing step by step lists of instructions. In our group, much time was spent on argument and disagreement over a suggestion I made at the outset. There was a Type A personality from another company facility that was self-appointed leader of our team (as was the case in most of the team exercises) who was adamant that my suggestion was "against the rules." Time was wated and became so short that the consensus was to go with my suggestion after all. We developed the instructions in less than three minutes, and had about 30 secons to spare.

Because we were the last to finish, our group was the last to present our instructions. The other groups had detailed written lists with lengthy descriptions of the parts -- "Now take the part that looks like a bird's wing with the end cut off and put it with the top edge of the wing straight across the top edge of the object . . . " (Huh?) and most groups took from seven to 15 minutes (Time's up!) to assemble the hollow square.

Our turn came, and the other group selected as the assemblers followed our instructions and assembled the hollow square in 48 seconds.

Our instructions were in the form of an exploded diagram with arrows pointing toward the center, with a second diagram showing the finished assembly. No words, just a couple of drawings.

The seminar leader was all over our group wanting to know how we came up with the idea of a diagram. The group told her the story, basically pointing to me and more or less saying "He did it." Thanks guys.

The seminar leader reached out to shake my hand, saying that it was the first time in seven years of holding the seminar that any group wrote instructions that resulted in an assembly under 4 minutes, let alone under ONE minute. Then our self-appointed "group leader" piped up with a "But . . .but . . ." saying that our instructions had no words and that's against the rules, isn't it? The seminar leader said, "The rules say the instructions had to be on one or both sides of one sheet of paper. They don't say anything about NOT using diagrams. Your reading of the rules resulted in the conclusion that the rules must be written WORDS. Noah here read the rules from an attorney's standpoint (I am not a lawyer) and concluded that 'it doesn't say we can't use drawings.' Therefore, Team 5 wins with a time of 48 seconds."

That self-appointed team leader wouldn't speak to me the rest of the seminar.

Noah
We did that exercise too! Of course, they now specify that you can not draw any pictures, but our instructions were so clear the other half of our team completed the task several minutes ahead of the other team. Now it is only cardboard though - plexiglass is too expensive!
:D
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