1886 Winchester

[RustyJr]

Is a 86 Winchester a stronger action than a Marlin? Also, does anyone currently make an 1886 and how do you go about getting one?

Thanks,
RustyJr

[Old Savage]

Yes it is much stronger.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/ ... 3&cat=014C

[CowboyTutt]

Rusty, based upon what I have read here over the years, the 1886 Win is the strongest action made in a levergun, but also can be gunsmithed to be one of the slickest actions too. If it means anything to you, my friend Mic McPherson recently told me that the action of the 1886 and 1892 are very different in the fact that the 1886 is a "controlled-round feed" design. The 1892 (the second most desirable levergun) is not. This means you can load it upside down! They are still made in small batches but the earlier Browning designs with the half-cock safety and no rebounding hammer are the most desirable.

Hope this helps.

-Tutt

[Naphtali]

I own USRAC/Winchester 1886s, a Browning 71, and Marlin 1895 GS. Rather than think in terms of failure strength of actions, think in terms of working strength. There is apparently little or no difference here. Were this otherwise, commercial loading manuals would reflect such differences. And the industry of converting Marlin 1895s to 50 Alaskan, 450 Alaskan, 470 Turnbull, and the enormous 510 Kodiak Express would not exist.

1886 actions (and its update, the M71) have the potential to accept longer cartridges than Marlin's currently manufactured 1895s. Having written that, you must invest large sums to have either action altered to accept the longer cartridge. Modern exception: M71s are chambered for 348 Winchester which is 2.8 inches OAL.

Marlin actions appear to be simpler machines. I doubt this is a deal breaker on buying an 1886.

1886s appear to be smoother out of the box. My High Grade Browning 71 is significantly smoother to operate than any Miroku 1886 or Marlin I've handled. Probably part of its high cost went to hand fitting.

The only difference between 1886s and Marlins that may be significant -- if you live in a high rain, high humidity environment -- is that Marlin offers several versions with major parts fabricated from 400 series stainless steels.
***
Rusty, I'm in the process of converting one of my rifles to a "Boomer" and disposing of the remainder. If you cannot locate an 1886/71, drop me a line.

Hope this helps.

[buckeyeshooter]

The winchester 1886 is stronger than a marlin 1895. Davidsons has some available in takedown configeration now.

[CowboyTutt]

I'm with Buckeye on this for the following reason: My friend Mic McPherson is the one who makes the 510 Kodiak Express (a modified 50-110) which is the most powerful chambering in a levergun that we are aware of (5000 ft/lbs of muzzel energy). While he has not built one on an 1886 yet, he indicated to me that the Win design would need much less modification than the Marlin design. Essentially, just rebarrel and chamber and go! The Marlin threads on the barrel are apparently an issue and gun requires A LOT of modifications to make it work, thus the expense. But I don't know the specifics.

I forgot to mention because I was thinking of traditional levergun designs when I made my earlier statement and that the Win 88 and BLR are probably stronger than either as they use a front locking bolt design.

-Tutt

[Naphtali]

I'm with Buckeye on this for the following reason: My friend Mic McPherson is the one who makes the 510 Kodiak Express (a modified 50-110) which is the most powerful chambering in a levergun that we are aware of (5000 ft/lbs of muzzel energy). While he has not built one on an 1886 yet, he indicated to me that the Win design would need much less modification than the Marlin design. Essentially, just rebarrel and chamber and go! The Marlin threads on the barrel are apparently an issue and gun requires A LOT of modifications to make it work, thus the expense. But I don't know the specifics.

I forgot to mention because I was thinking of traditional levergun designs when I made my earlier statement and that the Win 88 and BLR are probably stronger than either as they use a front locking bolt design.

-Tutt

Your information is exactly opposite what Mr. McPherson E-mailed to me when I queried to have a "Boomer" made.

He went an additional step to inform me that he would not -- WOULD NOT -- do a 510 Kodiak Express conversion on an 1886 basis action. He wrote that his learning curve would be too steep and the conversion would be too complicated compared with converting a Marlin. He also wrote that he will not use a stainless steel barrel in a 510 Kodiak Express conversion. He claims 416BQ's yield strength is less than chrome-molybdenum barrels steels.

I have archived this correspondence, which occurred last month.

[1886]

I'm with Buckeye on this for the following reason: My friend Mic McPherson is the one who makes the 510 Kodiak Express (a modified 50-110) which is the most powerful chambering in a levergun that we are aware of (5000 ft/lbs of muzzel energy). While he has not built one on an 1886 yet, he indicated to me that the Win design would need much less modification than the Marlin design. Essentially, just rebarrel and chamber and go! The Marlin threads on the barrel are apparently an issue and gun requires A LOT of modifications to make it work, thus the expense. But I don't know the specifics.

I forgot to mention because I was thinking of traditional levergun designs when I made my earlier statement and that the Win 88 and BLR are probably stronger than either as they use a front locking bolt design.

-Tutt

Your information is exactly opposite what Mr. McPherson E-mailed to me when I queried to have a "Boomer" made.

He went an additional step to inform me that he would not -- WOULD NOT -- do a 510 Kodiak Express conversion on an 1886 basis action. He wrote that his learning curve would be too steep and the conversion would be too complicated compared with converting a Marlin. He also wrote that he will not use a stainless steel barrel in a 510 Kodiak Express conversion. He claims 416BQ's yield strength is less than chrome-molybdenum barrels steels.

I have archived this correspondence, which occurred last month.

It is a just a matter of familiarity. Mic is intimately familiar with the Marlin. He has worked on and written on the Marlin more than other brands. He is however more than familiar enough with the 94, 92 or 86. Mic did a full blown job on a Puma 92 .480 Ruger for me several years ago. The rifle is utterly reliable, practical and quite attractive. That rifle now lives with 2ndvoc. Ask for Jason's feedback on that rifle. He just completed a Browning 86 SRC .45-70 conversion to a .45-90 rifle for me. Some of you may remember that rifle. It needed considerable work to make it reliable and functional. Mic did it. He is quite capable with the 86 platform. I will post pics. and a breakdown of the work done. I can not comment on the .510 conversion on the 86 platform. If he is not doing it there is a good reason but it is not action strength. It is probably a simple matter of economics. The Marlin is probably just easier and therefore less time consuming/expensive to convert. The choice between the Marlin or the 86 comes down to personal preference and expense. If you want a boomer 86 and have the $$$ and are willing to part with that $$$ the work can and will be done. As long as we are working within in the realm of sanity either action will take more than you can. Regards, 1886.

[CowboyTutt]

Naphtali, I'm a little baffled by what Mic said. At one time, he seemed quite comfortable and excited about doing a 510 conversion for me on the 86 action. However, your info may be more recent. On the other hand, I suspect 1886 is correct, and its just a matter of familiarity and time spent figuring it out. I totally agree that Mic is capable of doing it. At the time we discussed it, Mic indicated that the 86 action had already been built to cycle the 50-110 so it was logical and would seem an easy conversion as the 510 KE uses a 50-110 case with slight modifications to make it so it won't chamber in an old 50-110 rifle. I'll have to ask him about it next time I talk to him.

-Tutt

[1886]

The 86 and the .50-110 cartridge are perfectly compatible and Mic can do it as long as you have the dough. It is just more expensive. He may not be offering it to the general public or he may not be advertising the conversion. If you want it real bad and have the means then keep asking. If Mic refuses you then contact me and for a reasonable fee I will lobby on your behalf. I am joking of course. Have Ben Forkin do the polishing and the blue. You will not be disappointed. The gun to be converted is usually more expensive and the work is more time consuming. I am not knocking any rifle and I am not making a judgment of either rifle but a fair comparison is a Rolex to a Timex. I am not saying which is which. That evaluation is best left to the beholder. Both are perfectly suitable. 1886.

[Naphtali]

We agree that there is no safety reason an 1886 basis action cannot be converted. Ben Forkin was mentioned. Does Mr. Forkin also do a 510 Kodiak Express aka "50/2.3 improved" or something very close?

One of the things Mr. McPherson does is to alter barrel threads in Marlin M1895 receivers to allow .030-inch additional mass on barrel's radius at the threads. This procedure also allows the receiver to accept [some] ignition stress from the chamber. Is anyone aware of another Marlin-smith who offers this enhancement?

[Mike D.]

Although I have no experience with the Marlin 1895(336) action, The 1886 Winchester is very familiar to me. I have owned many and currently have a dozen + in my little collection. The '86 is superior to the Marlin, primarily due to it's dual locking lugs. The Marlin has only a single lug on the bottom of the bolt, which, in my mind, limits it's action strength. I have serious doubts about the Marlin being able to withstand years of pounding from the .510 KE. That's just a gut feeling and not predicated on anything but that.

The model 71 Winchester would seem to be a best choice for the .50-110, or .510 KE. The bolt face is already designed to accept the larger rim diameter and the action itself would need little modification to handle the larger cartridge. A new barrel would surely need to be made, and .50 EX cartridge guides may be required, although I am not sure of that. I no longer own a .50-110 Winchester, so can't do a side to side comparison of the actions. I am currently searching high and low for a post 1900 '86 ELTD in that caliber, but ain't gonna be holding my breath on that. Thought one was located a while back, but it turned out to be a parts gun, assembled to fool folks like me. In retrospect, I should have probably gone ahead and picked it up because the price was quite a bit less than an original.

[Griff]

Was there perhaps a caveat regarding the differences in metals between an original '86 and modern (Miroku made) '86? That seems to me to be a reasonable distinction in making any conversion.

[CowboyTutt]

My understanding from Mic was antique guns need not apply to the 510 KE club! The metalurgy was just not there yet.

-Tutt

[1886]

My comments applied to reproduction rifles only. 1886.

[CowboyTutt]

Mic just mentioned as an aside on an email to me that he won't work on Winchesters with a rebounding hammer (or any Rossi Puma or Win 94 with rebounding hammers), so that eliminates the Win repro 86's except for the Brownings. I haven't asked him about the 510 KE on an 86, but I think we have that sorted out.

-Tutt

[Naphtali]

Mic just mentioned as an aside on an email to me that he won't work on Winchesters with a rebounding hammer (or any Rossi Puma or Win 94 with rebounding hammers), so that eliminates the Win repro 86's except for the Brownings. I haven't asked him about the 510 KE on an 86, but I think we have that sorted out.

-Tutt

I wonder whether URACS/Winchester M1886s that have either been altered to eliminate the feature or those whose lock work has been replaced by Browning M71 parts from Midwest are acceptable for conversion by Mr. McPherson?

[Mike D.]

As you all know, I have replaced the silly rebounding hammer and abominable trigger on one of my 1886 ELs with Browning 1886 parts from MGW. The gun is now totally reliable and user friendly. There is no possible way that it could not be converted to .50 caliber, if such a notion struck me. So far, it has not as I have sunk enough money and time into the beast as it is. Maybe on another gun, who knows. I have enough Winchester 71 parts to replace the bolt, lower tang, lever, hammer and carrier on another EL. Will it work? I won't know 'til I try. Once you get the hang of it, replacing parts is easy. The 1886 is not as daunting as many expect.

[gary rice]

Is a 86 Winchester a stronger action than a Marlin? Also, does anyone currently make an 1886 and how do you go about getting one?

Thanks,
RustyJr

Everyone says the 86's are stronger because of the locking lugs, etc; but ive always wondered if thats true then why dont most of the loading manuals acknowledge this? Their is quite a bit of 45-70 data in relation to the stronger marlin verses the trapdoor models. ive also heard and read where the 86 pressure level is good up to 50000 cup which would be right along side of the ruger #1 singles shots but ive never seen this stated in a modern loading manual. maybe someone else has.

[1886]

Some manuals will list data for the Marlin 1895(336) and the Win. 1886. I have not seen data produced by the various powder/bullet manufactures exclusively for Browning or new manufacture, tang safety, Winchesters. There are not enough of them to warrant the necessary work. Most authorities agree that the newer 86 actions are bank vault strong. Still a 400gr, 440gr, or 500gr at hard cast at 1500-2000 fps will shot clean through just about anything including dead whales at any reasonable range. Yes whales. I remember an article not too long ago where some modern sourdough came across a dead, beached whale while in the company of this 86 .45-70. These velocities are readily attainable at quite modest pressures with the correct components. Recoil often becomes the limiting factor. Read some of the Randy Garrett tests. Regards, 1886.

[gary rice]

Some manuals will list data for the Marlin 1895(336) and the Win. 1886. I have not seen data produced by the various powder/bullet manufactures exclusively for Browning or new manufacture, tang safety, Winchesters. There are not enough of them to warrant the necessary work. Most authorities agree that the newer 86 actions are bank vault strong. Still a 400gr, 440gr, or 500gr at hard cast at 1500-2000 fps will shot clean through just about anything including dead whales at any reasonable range. Yes whales. I remember an article not too long ago where some modern sourdough came across a dead, beached whale while in the company of this 86 .45-70. These velocities are readily attainable at quite modest pressures with the correct components. Recoil often becomes the limiting factor. Read some of the Randy Garrett tests. Regards, 1886.

I agree completely about the recoil factor. In my case my shoulder will give out long before the rifle will.