Heavy Buckshot on Bear?

[CowboyTutt]

Guys, I know very little about shotguns, but I'm considering purchasing a 3" 12 guage or larger next month. Would heavy buckshot to a bears head stop him? I'm just curious. I'm torn between traditional coach guns and a Winshester SX3. Any advice would be appreciated.

-Tutt

[Paul105]

First of all, I AM NOT AN EXPERT and have no personal experience. With that said, years ago, there was an article about buckshot by someone who had hunted extensively in Africa (Finn Aagard maybe). Anyway, that article sang the praises of buckshot for stopping soft skinned dangerous game at arms length. There was even an example of someone hunting birds with a 20ga using #6 shot that was attacked by a lion. That 1 oz load of #6 gave that lion a bad hair day -- yes it was in the air and about 10 feet from the muzzle. If you have nerves of steel and will allow the aggressor to get within 5 yards or so, buckshot will seal the deal. For close range applications, they made the case for more pellets of the smaller buck -- 20+ pellets of #1 (does that sound right?).

FWIW,

Paul

[rjohns94]

I happen to have shot my only black bear with a shotgun. The bear weighed 710# estimated live weight, had two busshels of acorns in his belly. He squared nearly 8 feet. I shot him in Nelsen County Virginia. I was walking in his tracks on a foggy morning, having seen his scrape marks on a tree well above my head, when after covering about 300 degrees of a 360 degree circle, I noticed his paw marks on top of my boot marks. about that time, i saw the biggest bear I have ever seen in the wild, crossing about 40 yards ahead of me. I had a browing A-5 slug gun with me (i was hunting for deer actually) and as I brought the shotgun up, he turned and came at me. I am guessing he saw the motion. This bear was hunting me. I shot in front of him into the ground once, then again. He turned slightly to the side and started running hard. I put the bead on his nose and pulled the trigger. The bear was hit on the side of the head, breaking his upper jaw, but glancing off the skull and into its neck, lodging into the vertebrae. The bear hit the ground on his nose and summersaulted, did a 180 and ran back the way he had come but down hill. I was in a clear cut piece of property and about half way down the hill, the bear went down and started rolling down the hill. When he got down to the bottom of the hill, he was on his back and was throwing cut logs into the air but he could not get off his back. The problem was, and here is where your question comes into play, all I had was 5 00 buck shells in my pocket and the bear was not dead, just critically wounded. I walked down the hill loading three 00 shells into the shotgun. The bear was expiring but had plenty of life in him. Three times I shot the bear in the chest, point blank, right behind both massive front legs, centerline. I put two more shots into the shotgun, jacked a round into the chamber and approached the bear. He expired before I shot it again, giving up his death groan three feet from me. It took two four wheelers to pull him out of the gully and back to camp. He was strung up on two 2x10s between two trees. He broke that set up. When we field dressed him, the double ought buck had barely penetrated his fat layer and had flattened out on the ribs where they struck. So answer to your question from my perspective, slugs didn't penetrate his cranium and the 00 didn't go through his ribs at point blank range. The slugs were Breneke 12 ga, and the 00 was federal 2 3/4". If you are going to go after bear with a shotgun, I would stick with the slugs, save the heavy buckshot for deer.

[hartman]

It was Peter Capstick and #1 buck. 20 pellets #1 @.30" or 9/11 #00 buck. you don't lose much weight per pellet, but gain alot of weight per load. Slugs are devastating as well, especially if you yank off both triggers at the same time. (I've never done that personally

Bears are not necessarily thin skinned and definitely not light boned, I'd go with the slugs over buck shot and my 45-70 over the shotgun.
Hartman

[Paul105]

Sorry, but

There ain't no bear on this planet that can take a charge of 20 pellets of #1 buck in the face at 5 yards and do anything but expire.

I have no doubt that several loads of buckshot in the chest didn't have much visual effect.

I really don't have a dog in this hunt, but the questions was bear protection -- you better not be shooting a bear at anything but close range with the bear facing you -- in that situation, I'd bet a face full of buckshot would do the trick.

FWIW,

Paul

[CowboyTutt]

This is good info, thanks guys. I'm not thinking of hunting bear with this, only having it ready as a camp gun. I was wondering if the heaviest buckshot might "ventilate" the cranium, but I'm not sure. Regarding slugs, I don't think they penetrate so well either, and one of my other rifles would be superiour, I think. Please keep up with information, and I would love to hear more about Capstick's experiences! I love that guy!

-Tutt

[Hobie]

Guys, I know very little about shotguns, but I'm considering purchasing a 3" 12 guage or larger next month. Would heavy buckshot to a bears head stop him? I'm just curious. I'm torn between traditional coach guns and a Winshester SX3. Any advice would be appreciated.

-Tutt

Andy,

I know of a fellow who shot a black bear in the head at about 3-6 feet with two rounds of buck and nary a pellet penetrated the skull. His last round (it was later discovered) was a light load of bird shot which was delivered from underneath (not by choice) and killed the bear instantly. The first round was a Foster type slug at about 15 feet which ricocheted off the front plate of the bear's skull hence all the other shots. This guy had cornered the bear with his dogs hence the close range.

I'd recommend a good Brenneke slug load. I've just bought about 50 rounds of Brenneke Black-Majic for my Winchester 1300 slug barrel (rifled) just to show I'll get what works.

[CowboyTutt]

Thank you Hobie, but what type of buckshot? It seems that would make a big difference. If I have my facts straight, and I'm not sure I do, I've been told that 00 is like getting hit by many (I don't know how many, I'm embarassed to say) 38 caliber pellets all at once! It is pretty devastating!

-Tutt

[m.wun]

I have heard the Buck Hammer slugs from Rem. work great on bear. Full 12ga. diameter 1 3/8 oz.
solid slug at 1550 fps should plough a nice deep hole.

[Hobie]

Thank you Hobie, but what type of buckshot? It seems that would make a big difference. If I have my facts straight, and I'm not sure I do, I've been told that 00 is like getting hit by many (I don't know how many, I'm embarassed to say) 38 caliber pellets all at once! It is pretty devastating!

-Tutt

It was 00 buck. That's about all that was sold locally at the time. Yes, it was a 12 ga.

[Andrew]

I have heard the Buck Hammer slugs from Rem. work great on bear. Full 12ga. diameter 1 3/8 oz.
solid slug at 1550 fps should plough a nice deep hole.

1550fps - 602gr - 3200ftlbs, nice.

[Comal Forge]

My great-uncle Jack Pate killed a whole bunch of black bear with buckshot but he had dogs that almost always treed the bear before he rode up on horseback and finished the job. His weapon of choice was a Winchester single shot, model 37, 12 ga. with #1 buckshot. I wasn't with him on every hunt but the ones I did see only took one shot each - maybe because he was shooting upwards at the animal. It was usually BANG...THUD - when the bear hit the ground.

[2ndovc]

Great story Mike!! That'll get your heart pumping!

I've carried my Win. 97 w/ slugs and 00 around my cabin in PA. Largest
black bear I've seen up there was probably under 300#. Haven't
ever run into an aggressive one but what concerns me these
days is that most of the camp owners have started feeding the bears when they
are up there. Then when they leave their camp the bears start looking
for handouts else where. The worry I have is supprising one coming around a corner
of my cabin or near by and making him mad. There's so many more than there used to be. I always have a 44 or 45 revolver with me.


jb

[Slick13]

Guys, I know very little about shotguns, but I'm considering purchasing a 3" 12 guage or larger next month. Would heavy buckshot to a bears head stop him? I'm just curious. I'm torn between traditional coach guns and a Winshester SX3. Any advice would be appreciated.

-Tutt

I don't have a SX3, but I do have a SX2 Light (kinda the prototype for the SX3). Good gun, simple to clean and maintain, but due to it's light weight and crappy factory recoil pad (haven't had the chance to replace it with a Kickeeze pad yet), it's kicks like a rotten sumbitch even with light target loads. Only time it hasn't cycled everytime was with 7/8 oz reloads at a low 7400 psi. I haven't tried any of those light loads lately, but the gun has been broken in more since then, I expect it will cycle them reliably. 3" guns are the norm now. Don't bother with a 3 1/2" gun unless you're planning on waterfowling (and there are a lot of guys that feel if you need that much shot, you need a 10 ga.).

As for buckshot, depends on the size of the bear.

~Michael

[Old Ironsights]

Lotsa info.

My experience & 2p.

When I lived in Alaska I STARTED by carrying a Mossberg Marianer with 18" riot barrel & pistol grip loaded with 3" Remington Copper solids (2) followed by a Dragon's Breath followed by 2 "double ball" 2oz (2 hardcast WW .690 ball) handloads (don't do this at home without a lot of finger crossing/experience).

Decided it was all too heavy/bulky to stand in the Russian River with so I bought a 6" Casull and called it good.

But if you can't carry a sidearm, then IMO the above is about the best you can do short of buying "Paradox" loads from Dixie Slugs... (not available back then...)

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

[C. Cash]

Mike Johnson,

That is one heck of a bear. Bet you didn't need your oat bran that day! Thanks for posting your experiences....very interesting.

[rjohns94]

C. Cash, thanks - I actually wasn't hunting for or desiring to shoot the bear, was just mildly curious where the old boy was going - right up until he was walking on my foot prints!! he was in his prime, 7 1/2 years old. Then things changed in a hurry, tried scarring him away with the first two shots. Just made him mad. When he was butchered, one guy used a saw to cut his head off the neck, well because his nose was on the ground as shown in the picture, the guy didn't get down far enough to get a proper angle and he sliced through the skull where it sticks out. cost me a state record because of the lost length of the skull and the width was affected because I broke the bone with the slug that bounced off his head. He lost an estimated two inches of record score because of those two items. He was mounted on a Grissly form and is hanging in the gun shop I worked in for 17 years. named him George All the cigarette smoke and dust over the years has taken its toll but I wont forget ever that night

[C. Cash]

C. Cash, thanks - I actually wasn't hunting for or desiring to shoot the bear, was just mildly curious where the old boy was going - right up until he was walking on my foot prints!! he was in his prime, 7 1/2 years old. Then things changed in a hurry, tried scarring him away with the first two shots. Just made him mad. When he was butchered, one guy used a saw to cut his head off the neck, well because his nose was on the ground as shown in the picture, the guy didn't get down far enough to get a proper angle and he sliced through the skull where it sticks out. cost me a state record because of the lost length of the skull and the width was affected because I broke the bone with the slug that bounced off his head. He lost an estimated two inches of record score because of those two items. He was mounted on a Grissly form and is hanging in the gun shop I worked in for 17 years. named him George All the cigarette smoke and dust over the years has taken its toll but I wont forget ever that night

I bet! Too bad about the record loss. Seeing that Big Boy sure makes one think harder about walking around in the thick stuff here in central PA....especially encountering mother and cubs. Things are bound to happen lightning quick at that point. I have thought of having a slug in the right barrel of my double just in case while hunting turkeys, but I'm sure that's not legal to do.

[Blaine]

Please use slugs if you are using a shotgun for bear.

[CowboyTutt]

OK, it sounds like slugs are the order. Thanks for all the great advice, guys!

-Tutt

[El Chivo]

I hear there are copper slugs from Remington which might penetrate better.

[Old Ironsights]

I hear there are copper slugs from Remington which might penetrate better.

"Better" is a relative term.

The 3" copper Solids DO penetrate well, at the expense of both Mass & Diameter. I still have a couple of the older ones with the 4 frangible petals.

But now that Dixie Slugs makes a hard-cast Paradox, that is all I would use in a "dangerous bear" roll.

[RSY]

Would heavy buckshot to a bears head stop him?

Since you asked specifically about the head, bear in mind that the angle and thickness of a grizzly skull is such that a 180-gr. bullet out of a .30-06 will usually just glance off from a frontal angle. I imagine the skull of a big black like Mike's would do similar.

Buckshot can be useful for thin-skinned and light-boned quarry, but it doesn't tackle the tough stuff with anywhere near enough authority, in my opinion. There's a reason it's not called "bearshot."

If I were to carry a lighter-weight long gun for bear protection, it'd probably be a .45-70 or even a .375 Ruger and shoot for the body (and don't forget the pepper spray).

Scott

[AmBraCol]

The problem with buckshot on bear skulls has to do with angles and shapes and so forth. If you don't get the load set in the right spot the round balls will glance off - just like a side hit on a coke can from a Red Ryder. A dead center shot will penetrate but a glancing shot won't. And you WANT penetration. Another problem with buck is that (as stated by rjohns) it WILL NOT reach the vitals on a rib shot - even from close up. Although you're throwing a heavy charge of lead it's essentially prefragmented and the individual pieces don't have the individual mass necessary to penetrate on a well filled out bear. If you can get a shot from under neath you'll have better luck at dropping one -but who wants to crawl under a bear in order to shoot up into the base of his throat? There's a lot to be said for using a projectile that keeps going by sheer force of momentum - and buckshot (no matter the size) won't do that in a large bear. I've read of too many projectiles NOT making it through the fat/rib mass into the vitals which causes the bear to become very cranky very fast - plus unleashes huge doses of adrenalin in the bruin which makes follow up shots - even with appropriate projectiles - less effective unless they connect with the CNS.

[AmBraCol]

Further on the idea of skull shots and round profile projectiles. Cirillo wrote about a stickup guy who took a full cylinder full of 38 RNL in the head - and survived. NONE of it penetrated his skull and only one penetrated his sinus cavity but he spit that one out. And even though he was a yankee he was much thinner of skin than any bear out there. It is not uncommon for a round projectile to plow along under the skin without penetrating the skull or to ricochet off unless it catches at just the right angle.

[Old Ironsights]

... There's a lot to be said for using a projectile that keeps going by sheer force of momentum - and buckshot (no matter the size) won't do that in a large bear. ...

It would certainly be interesting to see what my Duplex .690 Hard Cast Round Balls would do though... Never chrony'd them, but 2oz of whonk is gonna do some damage... round or not.

But yeah, my Casull loads had nice square edges on that WFN. IIRC it was nearly an 80% meplat.

[Idiot]

Buckshot's for deer and criminals, not for bear. It might work for very close quarters self-defense, but not for hunting. I, like Hobie, recommend the Brenneke Black Magic slug. It is hard cast and should penetrate well.

Keep your eyes out for Buffalo Bore's slug. It's expected out soon and will, according to TS, out penetrate anything on the market (however, I do think it might be a 3.5 incher).

I know your neck of the woods, and a shotgun is a good tool up there in the thick stuff. If I were hunting in that country I'd stoke my shotgun with slugs and keep a handful of 00 buck in my pocket. The forest and brush is thick, so ranges will be close, and you just never know when you'll run into some heathen merc hired to protect someones illegal drug operation or pot patch, instead of a bear. Have fun.

rjohns94; heck, you look like you could whip that bear with your bare hands and a stick. I think I'd rather have that bear ticked at me instead of you. Great story - I wish it was mine to tell.

[RSY]

Buckshot's for deer and criminals, not for bear.

I call it "thugshot."

Keep your eyes out for Buffalo Bore's slug. It's expected out soon and will, according to TS, out penetrate anything on the market (however, I do think it might be a 3.5 incher).

Very cool.

Scott

[rjohns94]

I'm 6' 3", 225. that was a big bear.

[Cliff]

Some interesting comments on Buck shot and slugs for bears. Never tried it and don't really want to but I would suggest if you want to keep some buckshot on hand (just in case) and have 3 inch chamers get some 000 Buck, each pellet is .360 and you only get about 12 or so in a 3 inch shell, but they will out pentatrate 00 buck, big time which is .320 diameter. I have see the difference on wood it is good. I also see an outfit is selling a buck and ball load for 12 guage, it is a .650 ball and six buck shot pellets. Coming in from Italy cost is about a buck a round comes 10 to a box. Velocity is given at 1350 FPS andit is a 23/4 inch chambering. Sounds like the old 69 caliber Buck and Ball military musket loads might be worth getting some to try. Sportsman's guide had somein their latetest flyer. Centurion or something like that is the name. ATB Have a good time.

[shawn_c992001]

Those Dixie Slugs seem to real penetrators, if you want multi pellets I'd try their three ball loads.

[Jarhead]

I lived in Alaska for over a decade and hunted with a friend who was a Professional Bear Hunter(Grizz). He advised, "Shotguns are for use on birds or someone who needs to aquire the skills to handle a big bore." His argument made sense, but I'd rather have a shotgun vs. nothing at all....The Alaska Fish and Game did a study on the most effective bear stopper(Grizz) at 15yrds or less...

1) .458 Win Mag....45-70/457WW Mag would fit in here.
2) .375 H&H
3) .338 Win Mag
4) 30-06

300 Win mag was 16 on the list....going too fast and not as balanced as the 06 with 220gr. @ 2600fps...

I'll take my 45-70/457WW Mag any day over a shotgun....but a shotgun when that's all I have access too...with slugs!

Also, TAKE THE BEAR OUT BY SHOOTIN" out his front end(Shoulders) not a head shot. It's easier to make and much more effective! Got to break them big boys down, so they can't get to ya...

[tman]

i've always heard that the brenneke slugs were hard cast and used in alaska and africa on dangerous game. no first hand expereince, only used them on deer with fantastic results. you may want to research the brenneke slugs further.

[Old Ironsights]

...Also, TAKE THE BEAR OUT BY SHOOTIN" out his front end(Shoulders) not a head shot. It's easier to make and much more effective! Got to break them big boys down, so they can't get to ya...

+ several hundred.

I was taught that the best thing to do if possible was to break the collar bone/shoulder of a charging bear. Make it plow into the dirt face first from the physical inability to support itself with its front limbs.

Then you can kill it from a distance.

Fortunately I never had to test it. But again, outside of a .454 or heavy Rifle, to achieve that I'd be most interested in heavy monolithic slugs or multiple 60cal+ hard-cast balls.

[Jarhead]

...Also, TAKE THE BEAR OUT BY SHOOTIN" out his front end(Shoulders) not a head shot. It's easier to make and much more effective! Got to break them big boys down, so they can't get to ya...

+ several hundred.

I was taught that the best thing to do if possible was to break the collar bone/shoulder of a charging bear. Make it plow into the dirt face first from the physical inability to support itself with its front limbs.

I shot a charging female Grizz back in 1989 with a .338 Model 70...took out both front shoulders with a 250GR Grand Slam loaded to 2600fps...did the job! I'm still here. However, more Grizz have been killed with a 30-06 than any other caliber in Alaska....again, it's beacuse they broke the bears collar bone and took out both shoulders....then they finish em' off from a comfortable distance....

The velocity of the shotgun slug was an issue with my friend as well...however, a lot of folks pack shotguns in Alaska for bear protection. Some get chewed up...some don't ?

[dbateman]

i like 00 buck shot its all i have for my shotgun and have been told buy many old time hunters that it will kill any thing on the face
of the earth and i have killed plenty of pigs and some scrub bulls with it there is no dout in my mind that with the right shot placement
you can kill anything as long as its close

[goon]

I've never shot a bear and probably never will, but I was told by both my grandfather and dad not to ever try to shoot one between the eyes.
Their "wisdom" was that a bear has a hard, angled area at the front of its skull that will often cause a bullet to glance off. They told me to always aim for the eye itself (they were always excellent marksman) or to aim under the chin or behind the ear, but never between the eyes.

Funny thing - for two semesters I had anatomy lab and there was a full size black bear skeleton right there for me to look at every other day but it never occured to me to verify that.

[Doc Hudson]

Welcome to the 987,682nd Round of the Bear versus Shotgun Debate

Leave it to a danged old Jarhead to hit on the right answer! RIFLE!

I know we've all grown up on tales of how devastating a load of buckshot is. And we've seen the truth demonstrated on deer and criminals.

But a Bear, especially a Brown or Grizzly Bear is neither a deer or a miscreant human. It takes lots more penetration to get the job done. Buckshot simply lacks the ability to penetrate enough to be a reliable stopper for big bears.

I have no doubts that the person talking about his Grandpa killing lots of treed bears with a single-barreled shotgun. I don't doubt him at all. But there is a whale of a big difference between killing a relatively small black bear up a tree and stopping a Grizzly that is looking at you as the main course for lunch.

The problem with buckshot is lack of weight.

Sure a 00 buckshot pellet is .32 caliber, and there are 9-12 of them in a shell, but they only weigh 61 grains each, and the .36 caliber 000 Buckshot only weighs 71 grains. And the velocity is only 1200 to 1300 fps. Thick angles skull, thick hide, thick layer of fat, and heavy bones, all count against buckshot penetration.

As for slugs, unless you have a rifled slug barrel, you are taking a big chance that you will be able to put your slug where it needs to go. Personally, I don't trust a slick barrel to be that accurate, especially when adrenalin is pumping into my system by the 55 gallon drum full.

Like Jarhead, I consider the answer to be a rifle, a rifle with a large hole in the end. His comment about more bear being killed with an '06 than other calibers reminds me of a comment Finn Aagard wrote: "The .303 Enfield cartridge and rifle have killed more African game than any other caliber. It has also wounded and lost more game than any other caliber." I'll bet that the same can be said about Alaskan bears.

You can bet the farm that if ever I get a chance to go on an Alaskan Bear Hunt, there will be a .45-70 lever-gun for a camp gun and fishing gun, and a .375 H&H for hunting. IMNSHO, there ain't no such thing as too much gun when hunting critters that bite back, and that goes double when you are the one being hunted rather than doing the hunting.