POLITICS - Border fences and uncontrolled illegal aliens

45-70- · Post by **45-70-** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:32 pm

ElMac, I am saying they moved the media so far back as a hope that they wouldnt be able to film much. I respectfully disagree about ATF or FBI agents driving those vehicles. I spent 4 years turning wrenches on track vehicles. I still have my military drivers liscense issued in'89 from Ft Hood for several vehicles, including Bradleys and the M88. The M88 is not something you just show up with and teach someone how to drive it in a few minutes.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:42 pm

45-70- wrote:ElMac, I am saying they moved the media so far back as a hope that they wouldnt be able to film much. I respectfully disagree about ATF or FBI agents driving those vehicles. I spent 4 years turning wrenches on track vehicles. I still have my military drivers liscense issued in'89 from Ft Hood for several vehicles, including Bradleys and the M88. The M88 is not something you just show up with and teach someone how to drive it in a few minutes.

And I'm saying they moved the media back because they had an active crime scene where many killings had just taken place. What did you expect? That they allow Heraldo, Oprah and Larry King go waltzing in anytime day or night that they wanted??

As for the FBI pilots and drivers... and yes they WERE FBI pilots and drivers. All of which were former military with the necessary skills to do just that. In fact, some of those folks went back to the very units they ETSed from to draw the equipment. Nothing magic about it.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:43 pm

How did we go from wets crossing over to Waco?

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:46 pm

El Mac wrote:How did we go from wets crossing over to Waco?

There is a certain sector here that always goes back to Waco. They have no idea what happened there, but that does not stop them.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:53 pm

ScottT wrote:
El Mac wrote:How did we go from wets crossing over to Waco?
There is a certain sector here that always goes back to Waco. They have no idea what happened there, but that does not stop them.

I reckon so....

45-70- · Post by **45-70-** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:56 pm

"How did we go from wets crossing over to Waco?"

I dont know. Waco is just one of those LEO blackeyes like Ruby Ridge that get people spun up. No one will ever really know what happened cause the only ones who would have spoke about it are dead.

SFRanger7GP · Post by **SFRanger7GP** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:58 pm

Mr EL Mac:

Your constant presentation of facts is ruining the conspiracy theory. I am guessing you are/were LEA, 1/3, JTF6 or similar.

Barcelona Rick · Post by **Barcelona Rick** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:10 pm

My little brother and I have a piece of land in Presido County, Texas....been in the family from Land Grant times. Not worth much to anyone but the family. After dark a weapon or two are standard wear just like your jeans.....a fence probably won't work.....when Kinky ran for Governor he had an old Ranger lay out a plan to put a million $$$$ in escrow for each Mexican General based on the border. At the end of each year if no Illegals came across the border in the general's sector he got the $$$$ but a certain amount was deducted for each one that made it across......some historical value in the proposal. Kinky didn't get elected and the border is still a seive. I'm not selling but it sure would be nice for my grandchildren to enjoy a fire while looking at the stars without having to worry about the bad guys......

jumbeaux

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:30 pm

45-70- wrote:"How did we go from wets crossing over to Waco?"

I dont know. Waco is just one of those LEO blackeyes like Ruby Ridge that get people spun up. No one will ever really know what happened cause the only ones who would have spoke about it are dead.

Not really. There are survivors of both incidents.

I can go into great detail and really bore you to death. But I'll refrain.

I will just say this one thing and I'm done. In both cases, the principals put themselves up on radar - that was their first mistake. Then they hid behind their women's skirts and further exacerbated a really crappy problem. It was all downhill after that.

We have courts systems set up to adjudicate things such as this. And elections. And plenty of media. And internet. Picking up a gun and making yourself an outlaw to prove a point, well, no one should be suprised when it blows up in your face. Understand, I'm not exonerating all law enforcement entities in either case. Mistakes were made and the degree they were made can be debated all day long by all the monday morning quarterbackers. What can not be debated is that Weaver and Howell are just as guilty for the outcome of both debacles as anyone else. Moreso if you ask me. I was always taught that a leader is responsible for all the good and all the bad that comes to a unit - be that unit a family, church, cult, company, lodge, squad, football team, etc. That is where the buck stops.

If either really wanted a one on one fight with a goverment agent or cop, that could have been arranged at any time. But to shield their cowardly butts with their families, friends and fellow cultists is pure bullshit. And it never ceases to amaze me when folks who are otherwise level headed, logical and sentient beings can fall under the spell of turds like Weaver and Howell. History is replete with other examples of turds just like them and the eventual outcome of the turd and the poor followers. And each time it falls out like this - no one wins. No one.

Sorry to break it out like that, but dammit, it just is what it is. Sometimes things really are just that simple.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:21 am

" What can not be debated is that Weaver and Howell are just as guilty for the outcome of both debacles as anyone else."

I agree with about 99% of what El Mac said. Randy Weaver and Vernon Howell, by their actions and attitudes put others in harms way. We can apply the old "but for rule". But for the actions and attitudes of Weaver and Howell, all of those folks would still be alive.

My difficulty is assigning parity between Weaver, Howell and the various Federal LE agencies. I don't know where the balance point of responsibility is in this case. It is 50-50, 60-40 or 90-10, I truly don't know, but there is plenty of blame and guilt to go around. None of the participants either dead or alive should be able to leave the field of conflict without some feeling they were responsbible for what took place.

Tristan · Post by **Tristan** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:51 am

FWiedner wrote:They aren't gonna build a wall. They are just gonna take the land.

Maybe they'll make a place for the poor tired immigrants to rest after crossing the river.

I think they are going to confiscate the land and rip the owners off just to teach the American people a lesson about who's in charge.

Bingo!

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:19 pm

Charles, you sound like an insurance adjuster.... it must be partly your fault for being there.

El Mac and Charles, why does the "government" not need to follow due process, but private individuals have to? The presumption of guilt by government is not supposed to be considered due cause for warrant, yet in this case it seems that is what led to the confrontation.

As FW says, all that really will take place on the border is the confiscation of land....that eventually will be sold or given to the highest political bidder many years from now. Probably the off spring of the current illegal aliens too!

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:24 pm

Hunter... Time time to read my posts on the subject. Nowhere did I say anything even close to your question/implication.