ot-What twist for round ball?

[Gobblerforge]

I picked up a Connecticut Valley Arms Buckhorn Magnum in-line muzzleloader for 25 bucks a few weeks ago. It was horrible. Someone shot it, pyrodex we believe, then put it away, uncleaned, wrapped up in plastic bags for several years. Interesting technique. But being the kind to take a chance, I bought it. My buddy and I tore it down and the bore was probably down 20% in size with "stuff" and the action area had a lot of visible rust. The screw in chamber plug was rusty too. Or at least everything looked that way. But after some 20 minutes with brushes and swabs the rifling looked good inside a darker bore. Still some pits in the bore but darn it it cleaned up a lot. The breach plug got bead blasted and but for a few pits on the chamber side, all there. Now right off, I didn't know about the need for 209 primers to shoot this thing. Every other black powder gun I own shoots percussion caps and I never looked. So we chucked up the breach plug in the lathe and chopped and channelled and low and behold, now she is tapped for a nipple to screw in. Made a spanner to remove the plug with the nipple installed and now it shoots percussion caps. Sweet. Then I removed the rear sight and with a different screw, relocated it back to the rear scope block hole, thus lengthening the sight radius. So we start shooting and at 25 yards, its OK but at a hundred it's all over the place. Now my question. I only shoot round ball and black powder and this gun has a 1-28 twist. Is this twist too fast or a round ball? My buddy thinks this gun may have been designed for sabots. Any thoughts?
Gobbler

[cshold]

I wouldn’t blame the fast rifling just yet. Yes it’s true, round balls do better with a slower twist. Example 1 in 66” My suggestion, and what I would try is a few different patch thickness and ball size variations. What I think you maybe experiencing is stripping. The rifling maybe all but gone, and also the fact it’s a fast twist for round ball. The end result the patched round ball is just tearing through the rifling and not catching and spinning at all.

[dr walker]

Way too fast. My round ball rifle is something over 1 in 60. If you dont want to do the sabot route you could try some maxi-ball type bullets.
I've also goteen good accuracy from Power Belt bullets.

[Hobie]

When the mfgs went to the sabot and conicals like the power belt (a sort of sabot-less sabot) they found that the 1-48" twist then commonly used as a compromise twist rate for RB and lead conical shooters was just too slow. They switched to faster twist rates. I'd say your gun is intended for sabots. Unfortunately, being pitted/dark it is likely going to accumulate plastic fouling rather quickly. Using the heavier lead conicals might work well for you or the Power-Belts with their abbreviated length of plastic might be a good compromise. The only way to know is to shoot them.

If you do shoot round ball you can load it down so that it doesn't "strip" the rifling and it might do well on small game.

BTW, if you are going to shoot sabots, get the sabots in the big bags and buy Hornday XTPs in the 100 ct. box. MUCH cheaper than buying the containers of 15-20 projectiles commonly sold as in-line fodder.

[Old Savage]

My 1 in 48 twist will shoot round ball well to about 1750 maybe a bit more. 1 in 28 of course is for the sabots etc.

[AJMD429]

Dumb question, but how about paper-patching if the plastic sabots would foul the old bore too much?

[Hobie]

Dumb question, but how about paper-patching if the plastic sabots would foul the old bore too much?

I've never heard about anyone doing that. Seems like a needlessly complicated process in doing over a redundancy. I can see problems loading the thing in getting paper-patch, sabot and bullet to hang together in the "pouch" and from there to the bore and being seated without tearing up anything. Also, one would have to custom make some sabots to work with the added thickness of the paper-patch.

Seems one should try it with the sabots, heavier bullets seem to tend to being more accurate but..., and then move to Power Belts and then lead conicals.

[Pete44ru]

FWIW, plastic/sabot shooters may benefit on the fouling side by running a loose patch downbore after loading, wetted with a Teflon spray.


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[Griff]

When the mfgs went to the sabot and conicals like the power belt (a sort of sabot-less sabot) they found that the 1-48" twist then commonly used as a compromise twist rate for RB and lead conical shooters was just too slow. They switched to faster twist rates. I'd say your gun is intended for sabots. Unfortunately, being pitted/dark it is likely going to accumulate plastic fouling rather quickly. Using the heavier lead conicals might work well for you or the Power-Belts with their abbreviated length of plastic might be a good compromise. The only way to know is to shoot them.
If you do shoot round ball you can load it down so that it doesn't "strip" the rifling and it might do well on small game.
BTW, if you are going to shoot sabots, get the sabots in the big bags and buy Hornday XTPs in the 100 ct. box. MUCH cheaper than buying the containers of 15-20 projectiles commonly sold as in-line fodder.

As said WAY to fast for RB... but as Hobie suggests, run some ½ charge loads and see how it'll do. For plinkin' fun, they're fine... plus powder lasts twice as LONG!

[Hobie]

FWIW, plastic/sabot shooters may benefit on the fouling side by running a loose patch downbore after loading, wetted with a Teflon spray.


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Pete, I hadn't heard that. How does that work?

[jd45]

My Lyman Great Plains Hunter with a 1in32 barrel for conicals & sabots will shoot RBs very accurately up to a certain power level.....about 65grs by volume with 777, but beyond that it starts tossin em high & right. jd45

[Don McDowell]

There are examples of original Hawken rifles with 28 twists.

You may need to go with a heavy patch for a tight fit, and 1 gr of blackpowder per caliber. (If you're using any of the fake stuff all bets are off)
You can also try the paper patch route, the biggest problem you may have is finding the proper diameter slugs to wrap.Back in the day of the highclass shooting matches patched bullets were favored, and still are by long range muzzleloader shooters. Paper patching is discussed in depth the Ned Roberts book The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle.

[HEAD0001]

Before you do anything just JB the bore and try a thicker patch. Even go .005 lower on the ball if you have to. But definitely try a thicker patch.

Did you look for your patches down range?? If so, what did they look like?? Burned out or torn?? This makes a big difference.

1in60 or 1in66 is supposedly optimum for round balls. But I have seen way too many fast twist rifles shoot round balls great. Even down to as fast as 1in18. You just have to play around with the ball and patch. Try that first. It will probably work.

Or maybe the barrel is just shot?? Tom.

[Gobblerforge]

Thanks for the replies so far folks. The balls are .495 and the greased patches I have are .0125 and it takes as firm a hand at loading as any of the other muzzle loaders I have. What would be the benefit of a smaller ball and thicker patch? I've never heard of that one but it's intriguing. Unfortunately I never did look for the patches. That would have been a good idea. As for what powder, I'm too old school for powder substitutes so I only shoot black. 2f for the .50 cal., same for the Hawken I have, and a 50 grain load is what I used the other day. I would like to keep a watch for a .50 Minnie ball style or something to try.
Gobbler